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Debate Of A Namdhari Towards Orthodox Sikhs

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Hi a namdhari I know has posed a few question if sangat could please answer:

These were the questions I used to put in front of Orthodox Sikhs, Gianis and Gurdwaras, but I never really got any solid explanation back. There are also historical significant in Gur-Gaddi being carried forward such as:

1) No Aad Guru Granth Sahib present at Hajur Sahib when Satguru Gobind Singh passed Guru-Gaddi on

2) Satguru Nanak mentioning a village where he will return as one of incarnations (Hazro). None of the 10 Satgurus were born there apart from Satguru Balak Singh.

3) Mention in Sau Sakhis of Satguru Gobind Singh returning, riding horse, being born in a family of carpenters, resurrection of Khalsa. This is Satguru Ram Singh, born a Tarkhan, rode white horse named Chinni, and resurrected the Khalsa as the ‘Sant Khalsa’.

4) Sightings of Satguru Gobind Singh Ji and his Sikhs long after his ascend to Sach Kand.

5) The ardas consisting of ‘Guru Manyo Granth’ being added in the late 1890 by the Singh Sabba Movement, prior to this no such quote existed, Original ardas in Dasam Granth does not have this as a conclusion.

6) All holy books were referred to as Aad Granth prior to the Singh Sabba Movement; they were the ones that added the prefix Guru.

An interesting quote in the Aad Guru Granth sahib, used by many scholars to try and prove that the Bani is Guru is the following:

banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

(AGGS – 982)

What no one seems to ever mention is the quote straight after this one which reads:

banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray.

The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

gur banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

(AGGS -982)

Only when you accept the instructions from the Aad Guru Granth Sahib dearly, then the Satguru in person showers his grace. I believe the bani is clear at distinguishing what a Guru-Sikh needs to do and look for. A common teaching given to Namdharis is that if I gave you a map of how to get to Delhi and you clinged onto the map, or sat with it, the sign or instruction is not Delhi but an instruction on how to get there. This is the relation between the Aad Guru Granth Sahib and the living Satguru.

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Guest zulu

Hi a namdhari I know has posed a few question if sangat could please answer:

These were the questions I used to put in front of Orthodox Sikhs, Gianis and Gurdwaras, but I never really got any solid explanation back. There are also historical significant in Gur-Gaddi being carried forward such as:

3) Mention in Sau Sakhis of Satguru Gobind Singh returning, riding horse, being born in a family of carpenters, resurrection of Khalsa. This is Satguru Ram Singh, born a Tarkhan, rode white horse named Chinni, and resurrected the Khalsa as the ‘Sant Khalsa’.

My best friend is a Namdhari and we spoke a bit about this.

Anyway number 3 - Must be said the namdharis created their own sau sakhi to prove guruship of their guru...propaganda.

The Namdharis also created their own tales to boost their cause and no doubt there surfaced a new series of prediction Sakhis. It has to be appreciated the British also propagated their own ‘Sau Sakhi’ predictions to counter Nihang and Namdhari anti-British propaganda. If all the predictions in Sau Sakhis are to be accepted literally (as some Namdharis suggest), then logic would imply that all predictions in the Sau Sakhis should have now come to pass. However, this is not the case. The significance of Sau Sakhi predictions can only be appreciated as a tool for propaganda, serving a particular purpose at a particular juncture in Sikh history - and not as literal truth. Therefore, one can conclude that the Sau Sakhis which speak of Ram Singh as an incarnation of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh, have no credibility.

^Taken from a sarblohinfo

Does anyone have any infomation regarding the letters Ram singh wrote while he was in jail stating he is no satguru?

Nihang oral traditions say ram singh was apart of the dal apparently.

Forget that anyway if kookeh are right with their beliefs Guru gobind singh is a liar...why would he fake his death? 'ride of into the sun' and change his name to baba ajaipal just to give gur gadi to the namdharis guru? doesnt make sense.

Whatever the rajnama, sau sakhi says about guru gobind singh returning. just remember it talks about wearing a blue bana which kookeh dont agree to! blue is a mughal colour according to them so is black hence why they never wear anything blue or black.

Edited by zulu

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Very interesting topic indeed. Please invite him to this forum so we can have a proper debate with him.

The question of Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib is a matter of history and not belief so we need to use a historical approach to test the validity of this claim of mainstream Sikhs. Lets approach our historical documents and books to see what the early khalsa believed in. According to the naamdharis the, when did the Sikhs begin to consider Gurbani as Guru ?

According to our historical scriptures from the eightteenth century, the following books mentions Guru Granth Sahib as Guru.



  • Parchia Sewa das - 1709 (The suffix 'Guru' is applied each time the Granth is mentioned)
  • Gursobha Bhai Sainapat - 1711 (Maharaj says Gurgaddi is given to the Khalsa and Gurbani, - Satgur shabad hamara)
  • Bhai Chaupa Singh - 1730s (Suffix 'Guru' is given to the Granth).
  • Bansavalinama 1769 - The Granth is the Guru in this age.
  • Prem Sumarag - unknown - Says something about Gurbani being Guru avatar.
  • Sarbloh Granth - unknown though early 18th century birs are extant - Gurgaddi given to the Panth and Granth.

Apart from this the following short rehitname also mentions Guru Granth Sahib as Guru: Rehitnama Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Daya Singh rehitnama.

As such, it is obvious that a majority of the earliest documents we have do imply that the early Sikhs belived in Guru Granth Sahib as being given Gurgaddi.

1) No Aad Guru Granth Sahib present at Hajur Sahib when Satguru Gobind Singh passed Guru-Gaddi on

What is this based on? There are about 26 birs of Guru Granth Sahib till this day that were dictated in Guru Gobind Singhs time, and we know from historical sources that Guru Gobind Singh continuted to give court in the deccan, so why would'n there be a Granth parkaashed?

2) Satguru Nanak mentioning a village where he will return as one of incarnations (Hazro). None of the 10 Satgurus were born there apart from Satguru Balak Singh.

What source is this? When was it written?

3) Mention in Sau Sakhis of Satguru Gobind Singh returning, riding horse, being born in a family of carpenters, resurrection of Khalsa. This is Satguru Ram Singh, born a Tarkhan, rode white horse named Chinni, and resurrected the Khalsa as the ‘Sant Khalsa’.

Its a prophecy so that does'nt mean it has taken place yet. The same prophecy also says the Khalsa will take over the Middle East which did not happen with Baba Ram SIngh so it can't be refering to him then.

4) Sightings of Satguru Gobind Singh Ji and his Sikhs long after his ascend to Sach Kand.

What sources mention this?

5) The ardas consisting of ‘Guru Manyo Granth’ being added in the late 1890 by the Singh Sabba Movement, prior to this no such quote existed, Original ardas in Dasam Granth does not have this as a conclusion.

Similiar lines are to be found in the Bhai Prehlad Rai rehitnama. It might be true that the exact lines were not used prior to Giani Gian Singhs Panth Parkash or would could believe he just penned down what was being recited among Sikhs, hereby penning down an even earlier tradition.

6) All holy books were referred to as Aad Granth prior to the Singh Sabba Movement; they were the ones that added the prefix Guru.

Not exactly as the above list of granths and documents show. But there are many documents indeed which just mention the prefix "Sahib" making it Granth Sahib or Aad Granth. However, that does not mean that the Guru Granth Sahib was not given gurgadi. I noticed in Prabhjots Singhs scanning of Bhai Santokhs Singhs japji Sahib commentary in 1823 that he in the manglacharan refers to the Gurus by name only, and not adding Guru as a pre-fix... Does that mean he did not believe in them to be Gurus??

They had another culture back then, compared to today where most Sikhs would consider it mere blasfemy to say Arjan and Har Gobind without adding Guru or Maharaj in the end.

Please do invite him to this forum.

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if we take the sakhi of Bibi Bhani as truth, Balak Ingh could not have been Guru. Because Guru Amardas Ji gave Bachan that gurgaddi will stay in family, and they were Sodhi Khatris, whereas Babal Singh was of different caste, Arora Khatri.

Sau sakhi can give you any answer you need. Dehdhari followers swear by it. Radha swamis swear that Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave gurgaddi to one of their gurus.

Naam dharis love to quote this : gur banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

(AGGS -982)

but partakh does not mean in person. Partakh means with no doubt, a certainty, an absolute, no margin for suspicion etc

only in STTM it says "in human" but this is not correct translation.

correct shold read: gur banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, undoubtedly, emancipates him. ||5||(AGGS -982)

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In any case the above tuk by Guru Amardas can not be used as an argument of Guru Granth Sahib being Guru and no human gurus, since it would mean that all Gurus after Guru Amardas were not Gurus then.

is partakh and pargat the same thing?

Edited by amardeep

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Below is from sarbloh granth by Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji

In Ko Daras Satguru Ko darshan bolan Guru Shabad Gur Grantha.

Dvadas Roop Satigur Eh Kaiyat Dvadas Bhan Pargat Har Santha.

Partakya Kala Parbraham Dhanee Shai Granth Panth Khalsa Vartanta.

Das Gobind Fateh Satgur Ki Khalsa Granth Gur Roop Bidanta"

"Having the blessed audience (of the Khalsa) is equal to having the audience of the Guru, as long as they are singing the songs of love held within Guru Granth Sahib.

There are twelve forms of the Guru this is what I (Guru Gobind Singh) tell you,

There are twelve forms who revealed themselves I tell you Oh Saints.

This is the blatant arrow of power dispensed by the ultimate Creator,

Deal with the Guru Granth Guru Panth as the Khalsa.

The slave of the Deathless Being, Guru Gobind Singh, (does not recognise this victory as his), the victory is of supreme true Guru, the Khalsa and the Granth, these are very form and presence of the Guru.

/thread

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From what I understand we would conisder dehdhari guru to be khalsa panth (guru panth in addition to guru granth /shabad guru and whaeguru ) so panj pyare are dehdhari roop and can give gurmantar for mukhti also there authority is supposed to be highest. But these days we have panj pyares in each jatha contradicting one another on technical things like keski and kesh kakkar from akj and damdami taksal.

Edited by sarbatdapala

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My friend has asked me to post his replies they are here:

Sat Sri Akaal All

I understand that that some of you have shown interest in some Namdhari facts I had raised with a friend, As much as I would like to answer questions directly to people themselves about my faith, I do not engage in discussions on Internet forums, I do not see this as beneficial factor in the pursue for salvation, however wish all you all the best in your discussions

A little about me, I describe myself as just a Sikh, I have a mix belief and am not a staunch Namdhari, I regard the Aad Guru Granth Sahib as a living Satguru but also have a parallel belief in Namdhari Satgurus and Radhasoami Masters. It may seem a little confusing but it has definitely helped shape me in being a good Sikh and good person.

Some points I had raised had some answers, I have some responses for them:

- Predictions of Satguru Returning In Sau Sakhi

Namdharis believe that this prophecy is loosely based on Satguru Ram Singh Ji and his resurrection of the Khalsa, however Das is right, The Sau Sakis have been altered by many, Nihangs, Namdharis, Singh Sabba’s, The British etc. Thus each has tried to pull it in their direction. The original oral sayings of the Sau Sakis spoke only about the return of a Satguru to inspire Sikhs again. This idea also exits today; when one mentions Sau Sakis to anyone who is briefly familiar with it will identify it as a prophecy of a returning Satguru.

- Letters Regarding Satguru Ram Singh Ji denying Gurgaddi

This is a very popular counter-claim against Namdharis, Despite the fact a lot of scholars and men of power troubled the Satguru during his time on the Gaddi, after his departure a Singh Sabba scholar Dr.Ganda Singh wrote a book titled ‘Hukanamas’ where he seems to have quoted a fake hukanama by Satguru Ram Singh advising his followers he is not a Guru but a voice of the Guru. Satguru Ram Singh Ji spent his last 20 years in exile in Burma under house arrest by the British. Gurdwara Bhaini Sahib had been turned into a prison and a devotee named Shabaz Singh used to go hidden to retrieve hand written Hukanamas from Satguru Ram Singh to be read to sangats. In none of those hukanamas does Satguru make any such claim, all appear hand written and signed by him. All of Satguru Jis hukanama make reference to the Khalsa of Anandpur Sahib first and the Khalsa of Bhaini. Satguru Ram Singh Hukanamas are available at Namdhari Gurdwaras for anyone to see, I advise all to have a look at them at some point. Satguru Ram Singhs Hukanamas drill on the importance of a living Satguru in our lifes, its strange that none of these hukanamas ever ended up in Dr.Ganda Singhs book.

- Satguru Ram Singh part of Nihang Dall

Das is correct with this, this was prior to him receiving Gur-Gaddi from Satguru Balak Singh. Satguru Ram Singh Ji was known as Baba Ram Singh, he was trained in the Sikh Arts, Good fighter and served as a general for the Sant regiment in the army of Maharaja Nau-Nihal Singh (Grandson of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh). Satguru Ji also fought in the first Anglo-Sikh war against the British but quit the army as he felt the Khalsa Armies had become impure due to their liquor intake, meat intake, use of prostitutes, dancers and concubines. He later settled at Bhaini and then at Hazro where he succeeded in attaining Gur-Gaddi Nisheen from Satguru Balak Singh. Nihang Influence is strong in Namdharis, the first initiate to the Sant Khalsa was a Nihang called Suba Khan Singh Ji, Nihangs sided with Satguru Ram Singh Ji when the Namdhari Armies and Nihang Jathas attacked butcher houses in Amritsar 6 times in 1871. The Buddha Dal maintains good relation with the Namdhari communities till this day.

- Why Satguru Gobind Singh Ji Performed Noor Natak and His sightings

This is all summoned on the following link, with historical evidence and writings, please read with an open mind:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Guru%20Death/Death%20of%20GGS.htm

- No Aad Guru Granth Sahib present at Nanded

This is an account of Bhai Kahn Singh of Nabha, a famous Singh Sabha scholar

http://namdhari.faithweb.com/

- Predictions of Satguru Nanak coming as Satguru Balak Singh.

These appear in various sources, most impressive would be the Janam Sakhi of Bhai Bala whom spent in long life in travels with Satguru Nanak, he mentions the foretelling of 14 Satgurus:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Guru%20Death/Death%20of%20GGS.htm

- Satguru Amar Das Keeping Gur-Gaddi in family

This is a Saakhi that appears to spring from the old Bedi vs Sodhi argument, its definitely a theory to consider but I believe the Satgurus were not obliged to keep Gur-Gaddi within the family. If this would have been the case then all the Satgurus should have continued this from Satguru Nanak, however instead of selecting Baba Sri Chand his older son, Satguru Nanak choose Bhai Lehna, Satguru Angad Dev to succeed him on Gur-Gaddi.

On the whole I wanted to sum up by talking a little about Namdhari philosophy:

Namdhari Sikhism believes that God has tried to contact humanity through different masters, prophets, saints, demi-gods of various and or no religion. Some are very well known such as Moses, Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammed, Buddha, whom founded their own religions about this revelation, some like Tulsi Das, Namdev and Trolochan have gone unnoticed. However log humanity has been on earth, there has always been a living master in one form or another there to inspire, bless his grace and become one with God. As man is flawed, so is religion governed by him, thus only a true master who is not influenced by maya can show the light. These true masters have inspired and helped elevate people to salvation via Naam. When Satguru Nanak was taken to Sach Kand by the Arch Angels, the Akaal revealed this revelation to Satguru Nanak and appointed as the true master or Satguru of that time.

Satguru Nanak, did what no master prior him did, select a successor, masters had previously come and gone unnoticed in the past, only true seekers found these masters with dedicated search. However Satguru Nanak changed that and started a chain of masters that enlightened followers of all faiths and gave then the Naam in the form of a holy Gurmantar that was given in the ear. The difference in philosophy comes after Satguru Gobind Singh Ji, Tha Aad Guru Granth Sahib is regarded as the living Satguru, but how does one receive the Naam?

If you look and understand carefully without any biased view on the quotations with the Aad Guru Granth Sahib, most of them elaborate on the importance of Satguru, whom is living. There are various quotes from the Aad Guru Granth Sahib that talk about the importance of Naam from the Satguru:

"(When) the Guru placed His hand on my forehead, the Jewel of the Lord's Name came to abide within my heart. (Whoever) the Guru has blesses with Naam, the Name of the Lord, their sins and pains of countless incarnations are cast out and the debt (of sins) is paid off. ||1||"

(AGGS - 696)

The following proves that the Naam issued by Satguru Ji is in a form of a mantar:

"The Guru has implanted the Maha Mantra, the Great Mantra, within my heart, and I have heard the wondrous Naam. ||3||"

(AGGS - 384)

Naam has to be recited in a particular way, thus only a living Satguru is able to teach his Sikhs how to do so:

"With as many breaths as I have, I chant the Naam, under Guru's Instructions. Each and every breath which escapes me without the Naam - that breath is useless and corrupt. ||7||"

(AGGS - 980)

Most importantly, the Naam is sacred and should only be received through ones ear, Lots of orthodox Sikhs radicalise this practice, but if any of them had any knowledge of the bani, feelings would be different. This strongly proves the Namdhari case as we believe this practice of giving Naam in ones ear originates from Satguru Nanak, not Satguru Balak Singh as some put it:

"He is pervading and permeating each and every heart; He is the Ocean of Peace, the Destroyer of fear. He is my praanaa - the Breath of Life. When the Guru whispered His Mantra into my ears, my mind was enlightened and my doubt was dispelled. ||1||"

(AGGS - 1302)

As you should have worked out, the concept of Naam seems lost? Let’s regard the Aad Guru Granth Sahib as the sole living Satguru, my question would be, how does one receive Naam? Who authorises it? As the Naam Shabad itself was created by Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, it can only be received through the ear; it cannot be written down or uttered out aloud. So how does one receive it? If through Khalsa initiation then who authorised that? How is it received? What happens to Non-Khalsa Sikhs? Or non Sikhs? Can they not attain this bliss? Does not Sikhism say that the Satgurus light is for all?

In terms of history 3 theories exist on how Satguru Balak Singh received Gur-Gaddi from Satguru Gobind Singh Ji:

1) Noor Natak – As discussed above

2) As a revival – This theory says that Satguru Gobind Singh passed Guru Gaddi to Aad Guru Granth Sahib, however appeared after death to Satguru Balak Singh due to the fact the Khalsa had already started to loose its way. This version is supported by Giani Gian Singh

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/history%20of%20Kukas%20by%20GGS/History%20ggs.htm

3) Inspiration – This view is generally regarded at Bhaini Sahib which talks about the fact that Satguru Gobind Singh Ji appeared to advise Satguru Babak Singh to start a new chain of Gur-Gaddi starting with Satguru Balak Singh Ji being the 1st Namdhari Sikh Satguru, Satguru Ram Singh Ji being the 2nd etc. This theory is similar for Radhasoamis Sikhs too whom do not reagard their Satgurus a direct continuation of Satguru Gobind Singh Jis Gur-Gaddi but rather an inspiration based on those teachings and earlier masters prior to Satguru Nanak.

Namdhari relations with other Sikh communities have been good in recent years, a 30 year ban on Namdhari publications, pictures, Gurdwaras and involvements have been lifted by the Governement in India. Now the Punjab Governement has helped build and complete many Namdhari Gurdwaras and memorial sites. A Throne of Satguru Ram Singh has been installed in the Ludhiana Engineering Collage. Recently a picture of Satguru Ram Singh Ji was installed in the Indian parliament:

I would thank you all for reading, and would like to sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone, I believe we as Sikhs should always seek out the truth and gain inspirations from our masters to do well in our lives and path to salvation. If I have said or quoted anything wrong I humbly pray to the Akal and all the Satgurus to forgive me and to give to the inspiration and direction to do things the correct way.

Thank You

Anonymous Singh

Dhan Sri Aad Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj

Dhan Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji Maharaj

Dhan Dhan Radhasoami Ji

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Sat Sri Akaal All

I understand that that some of you have shown interest in some Namdhari facts I had raised with a friend, As much as I would like to answer questions directly to people themselves about my faith, I do not engage in discussions on Internet forums, I do not see this as beneficial factor in the pursue for salvation, however wish all you all the best in your discussions

A little about me, I describe myself as just a Sikh, I have a mix belief and am not a staunch Namdhari, I regard the Aad Guru Granth Sahib as a living Satguru but also have a parallel belief in Namdhari Satgurus and Radhasoami Masters. It may seem a little confusing but it has definitely helped shape me in being a good Sikh and good person.

Some points I had raised had some answers, I have some responses for them:

- Predictions of Satguru Returning In Sau Sakhi

Namdharis believe that this prophecy is loosely based on Satguru Ram Singh Ji and his resurrection of the Khalsa, however Das is right, The Sau Sakis have been altered by many, Nihangs, Namdharis, Singh Sabba’s, The British etc. Thus each has tried to pull it in their direction. The original oral sayings of the Sau Sakis spoke only about the return of a Satguru to inspire Sikhs again. This idea also exits today; when one mentions Sau Sakis to anyone who is briefly familiar with it will identify it as a prophecy of a returning Satguru.

- Letters Regarding Satguru Ram Singh Ji denying Gurgaddi

This is a very popular counter-claim against Namdharis, Despite the fact a lot of scholars and men of power troubled the Satguru during his time on the Gaddi, after his departure a Singh Sabba scholar Dr.Ganda Singh wrote a book titled ‘Hukanamas’ where he seems to have quoted a fake hukanama by Satguru Ram Singh advising his followers he is not a Guru but a voice of the Guru. Satguru Ram Singh Ji spent his last 20 years in exile in Burma under house arrest by the British. Gurdwara Bhaini Sahib had been turned into a prison and a devotee named Shabaz Singh used to go hidden to retrieve hand written Hukanamas from Satguru Ram Singh to be read to sangats. In none of those hukanamas does Satguru make any such claim, all appear hand written and signed by him. All of Satguru Jis hukanama make reference to the Khalsa of Anandpur Sahib first and the Khalsa of Bhaini. Satguru Ram Singh Hukanamas are available at Namdhari Gurdwaras for anyone to see, I advise all to have a look at them at some point. Satguru Ram Singhs Hukanamas drill on the importance of a living Satguru in our lifes, its strange that none of these hukanamas ever ended up in Dr.Ganda Singhs book.

- Satguru Ram Singh part of Nihang Dall

Das is correct with this, this was prior to him receiving Gur-Gaddi from Satguru Balak Singh. Satguru Ram Singh Ji was known as Baba Ram Singh, he was trained in the Sikh Arts, Good fighter and served as a general for the Sant regiment in the army of Maharaja Nau-Nihal Singh (Grandson of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh). Satguru Ji also fought in the first Anglo-Sikh war against the British but quit the army as he felt the Khalsa Armies had become impure due to their liquor intake, meat intake, use of prostitutes, dancers and concubines. He later settled at Bhaini and then at Hazro where he succeeded in attaining Gur-Gaddi Nisheen from Satguru Balak Singh. Nihang Influence is strong in Namdharis, the first initiate to the Sant Khalsa was a Nihang called Suba Khan Singh Ji, Nihangs sided with Satguru Ram Singh Ji when the Namdhari Armies and Nihang Jathas attacked butcher houses in Amritsar 6 times in 1871. The Buddha Dal maintains good relation with the Namdhari communities till this day.

- Why Satguru Gobind Singh Ji Performed Noor Natak and His sightings

This is all summoned on the following link, with historical evidence and writings, please read with an open mind:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Guru%20Death/Death%20of%20GGS.htm

- No Aad Guru Granth Sahib present at Nanded

This is an account of Bhai Kahn Singh of Nabha, a famous Singh Sabha scholar

http://namdhari.faithweb.com/

- Predictions of Satguru Nanak coming as Satguru Balak Singh.

These appear in various sources, most impressive would be the Janam Sakhi of Bhai Bala whom spent in long life in travels with Satguru Nanak, he mentions the foretelling of 14 Satgurus:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research/Guru%20Death/Death%20of%20GGS.htm

- Satguru Amar Das Keeping Gur-Gaddi in family

This is a Saakhi that appears to spring from the old Bedi vs Sodhi argument, its definitely a theory to consider but I believe the Satgurus were not obliged to keep Gur-Gaddi within the family. If this would have been the case then all the Satgurus should have continued this from Satguru Nanak, however instead of selecting Baba Sri Chand his older son, Satguru Nanak choose Bhai Lehna, Satguru Angad Dev to succeed him on Gur-Gaddi.

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Additionally my Namdhari friend also says:

The phase Satnam and the Gurmantar that comes after it is what most Sikh people and sick sects accept as the Gurmantar or Naam, but some interpolate the Gurmantar used as just the name of God and not the mantar it self (signifying its different)?

In the bani Satguru Nanak Mentions:

‘Ghar meh ghar daykhaa-ay day-ay so satgur purakh sujaan. Panch sabad Dhunikaar Dhun tah baajai sabad neesaan’

‘The True Guru the All-knowing Primal Being shows us our true home within the home of the self. The Five Primal Sounds (Naam) resonate and resound within; the insignia of the Primal Sound is revealed there, vibrating gloriously’

(Aad Guru Granth Sahib)

Here it is clear that the bani Satguru Nanak Dev Ji says that Naam has 5 sounds or names? This coincidentally coincides with the Radhasoami Satgurus who impart a Naam Shabad consisting of 5 names which give out 5 sounds, which like it mentions in the bani is imparted through the ear.

My Nana Ji told me this story, he said that Baba Jaimal Singh (2nd Radhasoami Satguru Beas) prior to receiving the Gur-Gaddi studied Sikhs texts very thoroughly, he read the Dasam Granth as well as the Aad Guru Granth and found may quotations about a Naam consisting of 5 sounds or names. This also shows up in the Geeta, The Kalima and the GatH Ramayan:

‘Only the 5 names imparted by masters could free you from the birth cycle, all other names are trap doors by Kaal’

( Ghat Ramayan)

Baba Jaimal Singh went to many Saints, Satgurus, Sadhus and Holy Men looking for the one who will explain and give him this Naam? He found very little hope until someone told him about a Mystic in Agra. He went to Agra and sat down in his Sangat, when Swami Ji Shiv Dayal Singh appeared, Baba Jaimal Singh got up and left (seeing that a Hindu is about to open sermon), a sevedar came after Baba Jaimal Singh and told him that Swami Ji said that ‘when he has taken the difference between Hindu and Sikh out of his mind, and devotes to his maters seva and teachings, then he shall impart him with his Naam of five sounds’ . Upon this Baba Jaimal Singh became his Sikh.

What do you make out of all of this? Reason I am asking is I thought I had found and understood the tenants of the Bani but seems like it is still surprising me?

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Forget that anyway if kookeh are right with their beliefs Guru gobind singh is a liar...why would he fake his death? 'ride of into the sun' and change his name to baba ajaipal just to give gur gadi to the namdharis guru? doesnt make sense.

Doesnt make sense at all , I think a while back on this forum similar topic was discussed and ithink it was summed up with the following ,

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jis whole family were martyred ...., 4 shaibzada , Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji ............. why would Sri Guru Gobind singh Ji , go into exile, ride off into the sun , change his name etc... " ............ He wouldnt .

The sad thing

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From what I understand we would conisder dehdhari guru to be khalsa panth (guru panth in addition to guru granth /shabad guru and whaeguru ) so panj pyare are dehdhari roop and can give gurmantar for mukhti also there authority is supposed to be highest. But these days we have panj pyares in each jatha contradicting one another on technical things like keski and kesh kakkar from akj and damdami taksal.

hmm these jathebandis were created after the naamdharis anyway lolz....

They are more likely influenced than not by some stuff that the kookay believed in.

Edited by londondajatt

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Guest zulu

Me and my friend today went for a meal as we do once a week, we meet up for a meal or whatever, he kicked my ass at pool on Thursday soo badly! was besti might I add.

Back on topic, he's a Namdhari, and we talk about Sikhi etc if he brings the topic that is, today the way he spoke it was like he wanted me to believe in his Satguru, taking Naam from namdharis > he mentioned a story of an elderly Nihang who used to have debates with a namdhari at a ramgarhia gurdwara in kenya, and realized what he was saying was 'the truth' & then went to bhaini sahib and took naam from their previous satguru and now lives in the midlands.

I'm a pretty neutral guy when it comes to him talking about namdharis, I've never had a issue with them, but ajjjjjj....he brought up the 'guru maneyo granth' line, and said its bs, along with the question what is the need for Nihangs this day and age, what war are they fighting, no need for shastar, blue is wrong to wear, Guru Gobind Singh had a prophecy of singhs wearing all white, sidhi paghs etc etc etc the list goes on.

It struck a nerve with me, because it was one of those days I refused to hear any propaganda, I put the question to him, 'explain the 100 years guru gobind singh went gupt', he couldn't.

I wished to share this with you guys, was a bit interesting to hear what he had to say.

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Guest zulu

I have been also doing a search on the forum for any topics relating to Guru Gobind Singhjis last days before sachkhand etc, any help with providing me with info on that?

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Me kooka mate is also like zulus friend . Always trying to convert me and dropping subtle hints how everyone is really a namdhari. Apparently Nihang Nidar SIngh is a namdhari because he had a pic of Baba Ram SIngh ji in the Hazoor Sahib book. (this chap can't read english btw). Also Niskam Jatha are/ were originally Namdhari and they still have the manja where their Guru sat upon. Its supposed to be upstairs somewhere at the soho road gurdwara.

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I came across a beautiful passage in the Mahima Prakash Kavita from the 1770s by Kavi Sarup Das Bhalla. Its towards the end of the book on the section called Jyoti jyot Samavna of Guru Gobind Singh:

Sakhi 27:

Eih baat suni ke sikh sab aan haajr hoe.

Tad aap ne bahut khusi kia.

Tab sikhaa ne puchaa jo ab darsan kahaa kari.

Satgur diin dayaal bachan kiaa.

Jo das saroop hamare pooran bae.

Ab meri jaaghaa Guru Granth Sahib ko jaananaa.

Jis ne mere so baat karnii hoe, Aad Granth Sahib ka paath karnaa.

Mere se baat hovegi.

Tum ko mai bhaugati kii god mo dhaal diya hai.

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