Man Convicted Of Murder And Attempted Murders

[dalsingh101]

Why 3 generations? The turn of the 22nd century?!

This generation is f**ked. Maybe the next one will wake up en masse. Then effect the subsequent one.

And that's wishful thinking!

[HSD1]

This generation is f**ked. Maybe the next one will wake up en masse. Then effect the subsequent one.

And that's wishful thinking!

Oh okay. Its just when you said 3, I was like that pretty arbitrary, does he know something I dont? lol.

[dalsingh101]

Oh okay. Its just when you said 3, I was like that pretty arbitrary, does he know something I dont? lol.

We're f**ked. Until we move from rural pendu-centrism to more sophisticated, educated worldviews we wont truly progress as a society. It may inadvertently happen as the rural communities get decimated and are forced to move to towns en masse. But then maybe they will simply bring their backward thinking with them and spread that?

Surely the petty mindedness will attenuate when they are exposed to the big wide world? But then again they may just choose to play petty politics like they do in the UK through Singh Sabha Gurdwaras?

I don't think we will grow until we are forced to because we are on our knees? Until then expect more of the same.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Until we move from rural pendu-centrism to more sophisticated, educated worldviews we wont truly progress as a society.

What type of progress will it be? I would much rather prefer pendu-centrism than modern hygienically sterilised so called educated world views.

These modern educated worldviews that I am a great enemy of can be found discussed in this essay:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm

i would encourage all to read it as i consider it to be a good indicator of the future.

[kdsingh80]

You know HSD What is your problem ,You have very big ego

whatever you read about war or sikh history from whatever sources you believe is ultimate truth,that is why you start mocking others,whatever I write You just mock me by calling so you are professor.

Didnt you watch the video? It is clear your grasp of history is basic. Do you know alot about industrialisation in early 19th century Europe? Obviously not. Do you know anything about 19th century warfare? Obviously not. There are hundreds of sources from the Anglo Sikh wars from British officers talking about the how well drilled the Sikh army was and how effective its artillery was. Then there was the trick the Aien Regiment pulled at the Battle of Aliwal to escape an attack by thousands of British cavalrymen. You dont know what your on about so it's wonder why you bother posting. The onus is on you to educate yourself, not expect me to carry around everything I've read in the last 2 decades to help overcome other's ignorance.

Just because sikhs have advanced army it does not mean Sikh kingdom was industrialised ,There is not even a single source that say that the Mahraja Ranjit Singh's

kingdom was economic superpower or some kind of highly indutrialized state.Do you know the first missiles were developed by Indians ,Tipu Sultan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Guided_Missile_Development_Program

so what does that prove Tipu sultan too was ruling very highly industrialized state .

Your logic that Sikhs were quite advanced is baseless

just because they had very good artillery.Soviet was only country which had military to counter USA yet the same country gone bankrupt in 1991.North Korea too has good weapons but it is way behind South Korea in economic development

Where do you think the mughals got all their clerics and mercenaries from? The muslim world. And in order to get to Delhi where did they have to go through? Sikh Punjab. Figure the rest out for yourself.

If you're on about our wars with the afghans, then they knew it was unsustainable, just like american intervention in today's afghanistan is unsustainable.

There is not even a single source that say that sikhs were responsible for downfall of muslims you can create your theories whatever you want.I have suggestion just go to advanced forum and post all this where you will find lot Hindu muslims,white and others .Then please post a link of your discussion and let me see how much you are advanced in knowledge of 19th century warfare.

More ignorance on your part. Over a million russians wanted to join Hitler to fight Stalin but Hitler refused. Many real historians credit a large part of Hitler's quick demise to the way in which he ruled the territories he conquered.

LOL so you think I don't know about this.Yes Hitler was genius that is why he conquered entire Europe with a defeated country .His only problem was his hardcore Racism ,he wanted alliance with France UK and other Aryan countries but he use to hate Slavs ,That is why he did not treat them well .The moral character of hitler's army was one of the best in the world ,that is why there very few rapes in Paris but the same standards were not applied on eastern front because of hatred of Soviets and Slavs

And BTW if you think I am too uneducated to discuss with a person like you then don't reply just carry on your discussion with your Guru Dalsingh

Edited June 16, 2011 by kdsingh80

[HSD1]

Just because sikhs have advanced army it does not mean Sikh kingdom was industrialised ,There is not even a single source that say that the Mahraja Ranjit Singh's

kingdom was economic superpower or some kind of highly indutrialized state.Do you know the first missiles were developed by Indians ,Tipu Sultan

http://en.wikipedia....lopment_Program

so what does that prove Tipu sultan too was ruling very highly industrialized state .

Your logic that Sikhs were quite advanced is baseless

just because they had very good artillery

Do you have any ideas on how cannons are made? The different types of shells for them? The gunpowder? You probably have this view of europe at the same time as having trains, steamships etc, but most of that became widespread in the second half of the 19th century. For it's time the Punjab could match most other countries industrially. How else could the Sikh army have been so modern? Your the one who isnt explaining things now, just spouting whatever floats around in your head, regardless of how rubbish it is. As for the Tipu Sultan, his country was reliant on France for a fair bit of their equipment, but for a late 18th century country they were advanced.

There is not even a single source that say that sikhs were responsible for downfall of muslims you can create your theories whatever you want.I have suggestion just go to advanced forum and post all this where you will find lot Hindu muslims,white and others .Then please post a link of your discussion and let me see how much you are advanced in knowledge of 19th century warfare.

And argue with non-sikhs who are just as moronic as you are? No thanks, I dont know of any forums that have a wide variety of intelligent people from different backgrounds. Explain what lead to the downfall of the mughals, and why the afghans didnt occupy Punjab indefinitely.

LOL so you think I don't know about this.Yes Hitler was genius that is why he conquered entire Europe with a defeated country .His only problem was his hardcore Racism ,he wanted alliance with France UK and other Aryan countries but he use to hate Slavs ,That is why he did not treat them well .The moral character of hitler's army was one of the best in the world ,that is why there very few rapes in Paris but the same standards were not applied on eastern front because of hatred of Soviets and Slavs

You utter moron:

My link

This link is good for anyone who wants to read what the Wehrmacht really was like. As for Hitler's conquering, most of the early plans were drawn up by his generals, not him. It was later in the war he took total control and began to lose.

Edited June 16, 2011 by HSD 2

[kdsingh80]

You utter moron:

I am out from this discussion ,there is no point discussing anything with a madman who just believe that what he is saying is right and start using abusive language

[HSD1]

I am out from this discussion ,there is no point discussing anything with a madman who just believe that what he is saying is right and start using abusive language

It's good to see you know you've been proved wrong.

[kdsingh80]

It's good to see you know you've been proved wrong.

So what are you going to do throwing a party or finding some other person to whom you attack ,insult and when he just left the debate your fake ego of being a super intelligent person satisfied

[HSD1]

So what are you going to do throwing a party or finding some other person to whom you attack ,insult and when he just left the debate your fake ego of being a super intelligent person satisfied

Something like that.

[dalsingh101]

And BTW if you think I am too uneducated to discuss with a person like you then don't reply just carry on your discussion with your Guru Dalsingh

When did I become a Guru? No one told me?! As for being HSD's Guru, you honestly think I have any sway on him.....seriously....

What the hell guys, come on! We can discuss this stuff without insulting each other.

Calm it down. There is no need for any broadsides when doing discussing issues. Come on man!

[Mithar]

In a Sikh discussion forum one should never insult another forum member or resort to name calling. People disagree with one another, we may not like that they disagree but we need to accept that and still act in a friendly, brotherly fashion because that is the Sikh thing to do.

I do agree that the Sikh army was a highly advanced military. Most people give credit of this to the Europeans that Maharaja Ranjit Singh hired, but according to Khushwant Singh the Sikh army was already a professionally advanced army because from the first treaty with the British and the defeat of the large Maratha armies at the hands of the smaller British army, Ranjit Singh realized the importance of having a profession army drilled in modern warfare so he began hiring Hindustani sepoys to leave their job with the British and work for him instead and in doing so they would train the Sikh army in modern warfare.

Before the first Europeans had arrived most of the territories of the Sikh kingdom had already been conquered. When the British gifted a cannon to Ranjit Singh, the Sikhs had successfully reproduced that cannon into the hundreds. In fact, they even managed to make modification and make it better than the British cannon. To make hundreds of cannons, you need indigenous industry. The world at the time may not have been highly industrialized, but the Sikh kingdom was certainly more advanced then any Asian country and just on it's way to matching the Europeans. If only Sikhs had conquered Sindh, then the Sikhs would have even had a navy and access to the sea.

[Mithar]

Another issue that was touched needs to be addressed. Sikhs were instrumental in the downfall of the Mughal empire. Many give all the credit to the Marathas only. But as historian Hari Ram Gupta noted(and mentioned by HSD), the Sikhs were located in Punjab. The lifeline of the Mughal army was the Muslim soldiers from the North West beyond India's borders in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

The tough Pathan and Turkic warriors from these areas was what made the Mughal army fearless of the Hindu warriors, which is why they were called the lifeline of not only the Mughal army but of the Mughal empire itself. Sikhs had blocked the access to India that these warriors would take to get into India which is Punjab. The Mughal army had to rely on indigenous(Indian) Muslims who were not tough enough to face the rugged Maratha warriors. The Indian Muslims were neither tough nor aggressive as the fearless Pathan and Turkic warriors. This is why the Indian Muslim kingdoms would literally beg the Afghans to invade India and replenish their ranks with fresh blood from central Asia.

Another thing to note is, the only reason why the Afghans(durranis) could not hold their Indian possession is because of the Sikhs. The Sikhs had not only deprived them of Punjab their richest province, but also all the land up to Delhi which the Afghans had conquered. Sikhs began looting the looters(Afghans). Invasions of India were no longer profitable for Afghans. The misl period can rightly be said to be the most heroic period of the Sikhs after the Guru period. That is the period when Sikhs saw the worst genocidal persecution in it's history and the ultimate triumph over Muslims and eventually becoming masters of North India. It is that period of history which still inspired Sikhs to not give up on their dreams of freedom even though Sikh movement of independence was so brutally crushed during the early 90s.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Mithar

[G.Kaur]

When people are discussing and one part doesn't want to discuss anymore it's not necessarily because he/she has given up. Have you ever thought about you can get a headache when discussing with people?

I can't be bothered to go through all the posts in this topic, but saying things like "my dad's house is bigger than yours na na na" is what we did when we were kids and teenagers, can't we try to act like adults and discuss in a nice and respectful manner? This goes out to me as well.

Btw when did Dal become a Guru? Did I miss something?

[dalsingh101]

Btw when did Dal become a Guru? Did I miss something?

It happened sort of suddenly. I'm still fitting into the role.

"Hear ye, hear ye all. Behold my words for I am the great guru Dal. What I sayeth shall be writ for so is it proclaimed by the great flying spagetti monster in the sky! Beware ye, beware! The horned one lurketh amongst thou even as I speakth."

"Repent thine arrogant behaviour for the man who unjustly striketh down another with his word is the beast of men and shall suffer eternal damnation and buggery in the depths of the fire pit of the horned one! Repent thine ways!"

"oohhhoooo!"

Edited June 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

It happened sort of suddenly. I'm still fitting into the role.

"Hear ye, hear ye all. Behold my words for I am the great guru Dal. What I sayeth shall be writ for so is it proclaimed by the great flying spagetti monster in the sky! Beware ye, beware! The horned one lurketh amongst thou even as I speakth."

"Repent thine arrogant behaviour for the man who unjustly striketh down another with his word is the beast of men and shall suffer eternal damnation and buggery in the depths of the fire pit of the horned one! Repent thine ways!"

"oohhhoooo!"

Amen!

[HSD1]

Btw when did Dal become a Guru? Did I miss something?

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???????????? More like I'm Dalsingh's Guru. Or at least his wise elder, he's very immature.

EDIT: Thankyou Mithar for injecting some sense into this thread.

Edited June 16, 2011 by HSD 2

[G.Kaur]

You can both be Guru's and then me or another member can shoot you for being blasphemic.

[HSD1]

You can both be Guru's and then me or another member can shoot you for being blasphemic.

Well the word Guru is used all across South Asia, not exactly blasphemous is it? Anyone who teaches another is techniquely a teacher.

[dalsingh101]

Yes I may be immature but HSD seems to have had an angry fit at KDS.

No necessary man!

Suffice to say, HSD has caused me to slightly revise my opinion regarding the technological capabilities of the Sikh empire (at least in terms of cannon manufacture) but I'm still a little shy of sharing his opinion on just how advance things were.

I do now think that maybe Panjabis were on the cusp of potentially great changes/breakthroughs but sadly we got Anglo-Saxoned back to being village idiots. Who knows where another hundred years of stability and good rule would have taken us? As well as indigenous ingenuity I'm sure people would have also tried to learn and take advantage of the emerging western technological know how too?

It's a shame really. The reality is that whitey stunted our growth BIG TIME. We know SIkhs also had a quality education system at the time. All lost so that we could become their guard dogs.

Our century of shame.

Edited June 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

Well the word Guru is used all across South Asia, not exactly blasphemous is it? Anyone who teaches another is techniquely a teacher.

Self pronounced Guru's is blasphemy.

[HSD1]

Yes I may be immature but HSD seems to have had an angry fit at KDS.

No necessary man!

It's relatively hard to convey emotion in typed form on a forum, I think some of you have added a bit of spice in the way you read my posts.

Suffice to say, HSD has caused me to slightly revise my opinion regarding the technological capabilities of the Sikh empire (at least in terms of cannon manufacture) but I'm still a little shy of sharing his opinion on just how advance things were.

Oh great, so I now have to find a few more lecture videos of a middle aged white guy explaining things to get you up to speed. When you say technological capabilities of the Sikh Empire what do you mean? This was the 1840s, if you expect Second World War-esque videos showing Punjabi women in factories building planes, tanks and hulls of aircraft carriers then I cant provide it. But plenty of British sources refer to the Khalsa as one of the most formiddable armies of the world. Where do you guys think that they got their guns and uniforms from? Waheguru threw them and they fell from the sky into all the Regimental Headquarters of the various Khalsa Regiments? Industry in the 19th century focussed on two things: consumer goods for the population or weapons of war. Now anyone with any sense knows you cant have a modern army without the mililtary industrial complex to support it. These same foundries that produced the metal for cannons also produced the mechanical equipment that was used in farming. The same farming equipment that the british confiscated at the end of the Anglosikh wars. Now Niddar Singh would have you believe that this was because all the sikh boys were using hoes and sheaths to practice shastar vidiya when they should have been farming, but the truth was they were trying to make farming more inefficient and labour intensive. This would reduce the number of young sikhs able to fight the British as they would be needed on farms instead (read into the Zulu Wars or what America wanted to do to Japan and Germany after WW2 for similar example - hell, even in afghanistan the locals dont fight during harvest/sowing season). It also reduced the chance of sikh engineers or smiths getting their hands on the metal and turning it into cannons or guns.

It seems that people are determined to see the AngloSikh Wars as just another colonial adventure of a European superpower against a bunch of backwards and stupid darkies. The truth is that across North America, South America, Africa, Australia and India the europeans faced little 'real' resistance. Sure the locals may have got pissed but there was not a lot they could have done with stick, spears and cowskin shields. In Bengal the British won because the Bengalis were too stupid to cover their gunpowder up when it rained. The British beat the Tipu Sultan because he stopped receiveing supplies from France due to Royal Navy victories against the French in the Indian Ocean. Being a muslim leader of a mainly backward hindu population with little chance of replicating the supplies that used to come from France, he had no other choice but fight it out until his eventual demise. The Marathas were a joke. Handfuls of Portuguese troops could keep entire Maratha armies at bay. It was no surprise that the British made mincemeat of them. The only race that could fight were the Gurkhas. Take a look at the biography of this Gurha general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balbhadra_Kunwar

But when the Europeans came to Punjab, did they find a bunch of backwards whose ideas on war consisted of screaming at the heavens and then charging in and dying like numerous Africans, Native Americans and others? No. We matched them cannon for cannon, gun for gun, regiment of the line for regiment of the line, cavalry squadron for cavalry squadron. It was a Clash of the Titans, the outcome of which would have affected the whole of South Asia for centuries. Why sikhs still want to portray it as some struggle between a backwards feudal people and an aggressive industrialised empire reflects more on them than it does on history. Just because sikhs may be backwards or useless today (well in certain places they are) does not mean that they were always this way. If the Khalsa Raj had any issues they were entirely in the political domain. Another thing the Khalsa Raj didnt have going for it was population. We could produce the guns and cannons, we just couldnt find enough Sikhs to use them and be able to pay them at a regular rate. This was mainly due to us being landlocked and not having the ability to trade over the seas.

As well as indigenous ingenuity I'm sure people would have also tried to learn and take advantage of the emerging western technological know how too?

That's a given. Watch the video again, he shows how Punjabis were spying on the East India Companies manufacturing depots. If we had a navy it would have been a lot easier to nick secrets.

Edited June 16, 2011 by HSD 2

[HSD1]

Self pronounced Guru's is blasphemy.

Calm down dear. Guru is a word used widely in India for all types of supposed intellectuals, you'll have a field day if you go over there with an AK. My comment was tongue - in - cheek, I never said I could compare to our 10 masters.

[G.Kaur]

I'm surprised you didn't notice the irony in my post about shooting you and dal.

[HSD1]

I'm surprised you didn't notice the irony in my post about shooting you and dal.

True. I was once told on SS that I would die 'with a big axe stuck in my back' by one of the frequent posters on there. So if you want to kill me you'll have to get in line. Dalsingh's free though!!!

Edited June 16, 2011 by HSD 2