Diary Of An Arab Writer Who Accompanied Guru Nanak

[IJJSingh]

In the year 1511, during Guru Nanak’s journeys in the Middle East, a local author, Taajudin Naqshabandhi, joined Guru Nanak and remained with him for roughly two years. Taajudin documented his time with Guru Nanak in great detail. Four centuries later, a young man from Kashmir, Syed Mushtaq Hussain, chanced upon Taajudin’s handwritten manuscript while studying to become an Islamic scholar at the Medina University. This manuscript changed Mushtaq’s life. He converted to Sikhism and went on to become the renowned Sant Syed Prithipal Singh. This book provides a rare historical account of Sikh history and the Guru's divinity, based on eyewitness accounts.

It's a remarkable book and a must read.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B39vxC8IGIWFbTlST1ctX2psdEk

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

[dalsingh101]

What evidence do we have of authenticity?

Edited December 28, 2012 by dalsingh101

[IJJSingh]

I am not sure for which particular reference are you seeking authenticity? I can point you to some of the general items:

• The Appendix in the book documents a number of independent sources and photographs of corroborating evidence
  
• Sant Syed Prithipal Singh was a famous person, and many people living today know him
  
• Mushtaq Hussain's (later Sant Prithipal Singh) notes are available from Doctor Himmat Singh, these notes are also available from the Sant's family members.
  
• Some of the arguments mentioned in Taajudin and Jainul Abdin's manuscripts quote specific Islamic texts
  
• Pir Dasatgir Hazrat Abdul Kadar Jilani has been a very famous figure in Iraq. His monument still exists in Baghdad. It may be possible to acquire a copy of his autobiography Guniyate Salahine which would shed more light on his meeting with the Guru.
  
• Taajudin's handwritten manuscript Siyahto Baba Nank Fakir may be a bit more challenging to locate. If the manuscript still exists in a library at Medina University, it may be possible for a University professor to request a copy of this manuscript through an inter-University exchange.
  
• I dont know how one would go about tracing Jainul Abdin's book Twarikh-e-Arab
  
• Guru's Arabic robe lies at Dera Baba Nanak, you can google and see its pictures. Pictures of Guru's Kharav are also available online.
  

There is plenty of corroborating evidence already available. There are strong clues in this book, as to where we should look for more evidence. I think it would be a worthwhile project for amateur and professional historians to do some further digging.

Hope this helps.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh

[amardeep]

A Man of God Sans ReligionBhai HARBANS LAL

Many a dear friend has encouraged me in recent years to begin recording my memories and memoirs.

My response began with the series, Tales of Haripur, first published in the pages of sikhchic.com and thereafter in the Sikh Review.

A Persian phrase that reverberates through all that comes back to me from the umpteen decades I have lived, is one used by Guru Nanak in his reply to an oft-repeated question posed to him about his religion, during his extensive travels in the Middle-East.

Those he engaged him during the course of that particular udaasi included Muslim scholars well-versed in in Islam and Islamic laws, pirs and saints, mullahs, ulemas, as well as Muslim laymen.

The phrase whose English translation provides the title of this article, was one first revealed to me by a learned scholar who

used to visit Haripur and other Potohar towns frequently. I was one of his many admirers, first while I lived in Haripur, and later in Patiala after the Partition of Punjab and the rest of the subcontinent.

Syed Prithipal Singh was originally Syed Mushtaq Hussain Mirpuri who converted to Sikhi several years after his education at an Islamic madrassa in the holy city of Mecca. His ancestors were well known for their Islamic scholarship and community leadership in the Mirpur area of Kashmir.

He was the only son of the famous Pir, Muzafar Hussain, and a grandson of Pir Baqar Shah.

In 1927-30, young Mushtaq accompanied his father on a pilgrimage of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina in addition to several other places of pilgrimages in the Middle East. When visiting the Muslim sacred shrines, his father, Pir Hussain, was inspired to place his son in a Muslim madrassa for Islamic education as well as for private lessons under the private supervision of Islamic scholars to learn Arabic and Persian languages.

It is during his visit of those holy cities that Mushtaq came across a book titled Siyahto Baba Nanak Shah Faqir, by Haji Tajjudin Naqshbandhi, who had met Guru Nanak during the hajj.

Tajjudin caught up with Guru Nanak in the town of Undlas located between Erar and Bagdad and travelled thereafter with him as a member of his entourage. He thus remained with Guru Nanak during the years of 1504-06.

Tajjudin recorded his time with Guru Nanak in great detail by reporting on his travels.

The book that Mushtaq came across more than four centuries was this very diary, originally hand-written by Tajjudin in a mix of Arabic and Persian languages. The book was in fact a compilation of Tajjudin’s diaries from a 2-year period.

Therein, Tajjudin had described Guru Nanak’s ravels and recorded his dialogues with the Islamic religious and civil leadership of the time. The completed diary was dated 1505 and was archived in a local library.

Recently, I have learned more of this and other extraordinary documents through my friend, Dr. Himat Singh of Patiala, Punjab.

In the absence of any facility available to copy the book in facsimile, Mushtaq Hussain took notes from Tajjudin's diaries and another book, Twarikh-e-Arab, by Khwaja Zainul Abideen, who was also present during Guru Nanak’s travels to Mecca.

Mushtaq then undertook to visit personally as many places as he could to experience the places Guru Nanak had visited four centuries earlier. During those travels, Mushtaq sought out and examined various artifacts and relics then extant from the Guru’s times. He talked to their caretakers and the locals to gather as much information as he could.

Mushtaq was fascinated by the account of Guru Nanak’s travels to the sacred places of Islam and he decided to share his experiences through public presentations and by working on publishing his findings.

Upon his return to Kashmir, Mushtaq witnessed intense persecution (1930-31) being then waged against Sikhs and their institutions in Kashmir right in front of him. The incidents he witnessed, coupled with other things that had begun to disturb him through the years, finally led to his decision to change his faith.

Thereafter, Mushtaq left his ancestral Kashmir and moved to Lahore where he came across a number of scholars of Sikh, Hindu and Buddhist orientation. He was accompanied by his wife, Gulzar Begum and son, Mohammad Nazir.

In Lahore, Mushtaq began to visit Gurdwara Dera Sahib where Guru Arjan had been martyred in 1606. He began to learn about Sikhism. He was already well on his way as a sehajdhari, having been deeply affected by all that he learned about Guru Nanak in the Arabian achives.

In Lahore he was further influenced by Giani Achar Singh.

Soon after his acquaintance with Giani ji, Mushtaq took khande-di-pahul from him in 1935.

Thenceforth, he became Syed Prithipal Singh, later also known as Sant Syed Prithipal Singh Patiale-wale.

His family joined him in this journey and also converted to Sikhi.

Syed Sahib was a very sought-after speaker. He travelled as far as England where he is remembered for laying the foundation stone of the Southall Gurdwara in or about 1965.

In 1968 he was invited to speak at the Guru Nanak Parkash Gurpurab celebrations in Kanpur, India.

He passed away during his visit to Kanpur.

Through the years, Syed Sahib worked away at translating his Persian notes for a book to be published in Punjabi. However, he did not live long enough to see the project come to final fruition.

His hand-written draft of Guru Nanak’s Travels remained unknown until his son Mohnderpal Singh Bedi finally released parts of it a few years later.

The first booklet, Babe-di-Bagdad-Pheri, has now been published (2011) by Kanwar Ajit Singh of Gurmat Vichar Kendar, Patiala, Punjab.

Coming back to the Persian quote from Guru Nanak, it is from Guru Nanak’s dialogue - not unlike the one he had with the Siddhs - with Qazi Ruknuddin of Mecca.

During Guru Nanak's visit to Mecca, Qazi Ruknuddin was among the first batch of Muslims who visited him. After the incident in which Nanak was found sleeping with his feet pointing in the "wrong" direction, several Hajjis or pilgrims to Mecca-Medina gathered around Guru Nanak, seeking a dialogue.

Qazi Ruknuddin then asked Nanak:

Fala Allah mazaboo? (What is your religion?)

To that Guru Nanak responded:

Abdulla Allah la mazaboo (I am a man of God and belong to no religion.)

This was one of some 360 questions and answers from that dialogue.

Sikh scholar Bhai Gurdas and the authors of Janam Sakhis have referred to this historic dialogue and Guru Nank’s responses, including this specific one.

To me the doctrine embodied in Guru Nanak’s self-description is a profound statement that should draw the attention of civil societies everywhere in the global village.

April 29, 2012

[amardeep]

Quite interesting book, though some parts seem to reflect later trends in Sikhism (Guru Nanak replying Sat Sri Akal Gurbar Akal). In the vaars of Bhai Gurdass the greeting of Guru Nanak is given as Sat Kartar.

It mentions a disciple of his was killed in Mecca for apostasy. If thats true, it would mean the first Sikh to lay down his life for Sikhi happened during the lifetime of Guru Nanak himself.

[chatanga1]

very very interesting. i read it and it is very interesting. a problem though, how do we verify that any sites in mecca still exist? you can t go there yourself cos you're a kafir, and no muslim is going to search it out to come back and tell you about it, cos they hate ther notion of Guru Nanak Dev Ji going to mecca, unless they are trying to convinve you that Guru Ji was a muslim.

Edited January 1, 2013 by chatanga1

[amardeep]

Most sites at Mecca have been destroyed in recent years by the wahabis so its most likely not there anymore. However would be interesting to search for the arabic book mentioned, it is said to have been more than 300 pages. The arabic seems quite interesting,.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites

Below is an incomplete list of destroyed sites

Mosques

• The mosque at the grave of Sayyid al-Shuhada’ Hamza bin Abdul Muttalib.^[7]
  
• The Mosque of Fatima Zahra.^[7]
  
• The Mosque of al-Manaratain.^[7]
  
• Mosque and tomb of Sayyid Imam al-Uraidhi ibn Ja‘far al-Sadiq, destroyed by dynamite on August 13, 2002.
  
• Four mosques at the site of the Battle of the Trench in Medina.
  
• The Mosque of Abu Rasheed.^[14]
  
• Salman al-Farsi Mosque, in Medina.^[14]
  
• Raj'at ash-Shams Mosque, in Medina.^[14]
  

Cemeteries and tombs

• Jannat al-Baqi in Medina, leveled, still open access for men only.
  
• Jannat al-Mu'alla, the ancient cemetery at Mecca.^[14]
  
• Grave of Hamida al-Barbariyya, the mother of Imam Musa al-Kazim.
  
• Grave of Amina bint Wahb, Muhammad’s mother, bulldozed and set alight in 1998.
  
• Graves of Banu Hashim in Mecca.^[14]
  
• Tombs of Hamza and other martyrs were demolished at Uhud.^[14]
  
• Tomb of Eve in Jeddah,^[14] sealed with concrete in 1975.
  
• Grave of the father of Muhammad, in Medina.^[14]
  

Historical religious sites

• The house of Mawlid where Muhammad is believed to have been born in 570. Originally turned into a cattle market, it now lies under a rundown building which was built 70 years ago as a compromise after Wahhabi clerics called for it to be torn down.^[15]
  
• The house of Khadija, Muhammad’s first wife. Muslims believe he received some of the first revelations there. It was also where his children Fatimah and Qasim were born. After it was rediscovered during the Haram extensions in 1989, it was covered over and it was made into a library.
  
• House of Muhammed in Medina, where he lived after the migration from Mecca.^[14]
  
• Dar al Arqam, the first Islamic school where Muhammad taught.^[15] It now lies under the extension of the Masjid Al Nabawi of Madinah.
  
• Qubbat’ al-Thanaya, the burial site of Muhammed's incisor that was broken in the Battle of Uhud.^[7]
  
• Mashrubat Umm Ibrahim, built to mark the location of the house where Muhammad’s son, Ibrahim, was born to Mariah.
  
• Dome which served as a canopy over the Well of Zamzam.^[14]
  
• Bayt al-Ahzan of Sayyida Fatima, in Medina.^[14]
  
• House of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, in Medina.^[14]
  
• Mahhalla complex of Banu Hashim, in Medina.^[14]
  
• House of Ali where Hasan and Husayn were born.^[14
  

[chatanga1]

why are they destroying their own sites?.

Edited January 1, 2013 by chatanga1

[amardeep]

They are wahabi fanatics... They consider it worship of history and Muhammad

[chatanga1]

yes i was ust reading about it, they have recently destroyed 2 very old mosques in timbuktu, in the african sahara.

[dalsingh101]

I just scanned the opening pages and as Amardeep alluded it does seem a bit 'eyebrow raising' that it has a later Sikh greeting and highlights later Khalsa convention of not cutting hair.

Not that I want it to be fake, I'd LOVE a genuine account but previous experiences makes me exercise a bit of caution.

[chatanga1]

according to the janamsakhis, Guru Nanak Dev Ji instrcucts Bhai Mardana not keep his hair uncut.

[amardeep]

Dalsingh:

the practice of keeping kesh since to have started earlier than Guru Gobind Singh. There is a reference in Guru Granth Sahib in the Bhatt bani saying something about the long-haired Sikhs are true worshippers of Truth.... The bhatts wrote during the time of Guru Ram Dass..

[dalsingh101]

^ I kinda got that. I think keeping kesh formally must have commenced in run up to 1699.

[SikhKhoj]

This is something interesting but wouldn't surprise me if its true, I have found that diairies of many contemponaries of Gurus exist, such as Guru Gobind Singh's bodyguards diairy etc.

Guru Nanak ordering people to keep kesh doesn't make this book (Tajdeen Nakshbandi's) appear any dubious since there are quite a few sources which talk of Guru Ji being kesdhari and also ordering people to keep hair, even other Gurus before Guru Gobind did (do you think that the people gathered on Vaisakhi day were moneh, and the guru gave them amrit while they were cleanshaven? Doesn't seem right. Do you think kirpan, kachehre etc were given to 10-30,000 people on the first day of Pahul?) A fact which is often ignored is that the 9 other Gurus just went deeper into Guru Nanaks teachings, hence their use of Nanak and also many subsequent Gurus having Shabads which are very similar to Guru Nanaks.

The first thing I would like to know is at what university in Medina Bhai Sayed Sahib were studying at? Currently only a few universities exist in Medina and the oldest of them dates back to the 1950's only not earlier (1930s as said by Sayed Sahib).

Then I would like to see Sayed Sahibs own notes being scanned. Someone could possibly also contact a Muslim scholar here (GS Mann perhaps?) who has links in Saudia Arabia - the book would be of great value for us.

The Guru established Sikh sangats everywhere, even Mecca Medina but sadly we lost touch with them and have completely lost them even in India (MP, Bihar, UP etc) let alone other Asian countries.

Interesting to see how some of the facts mentioned corraborate with details given in some Janamsakhis and some other info is unknown to date, such as Qazi Rukndeen being executed for his love for Guru Nanak.

PS. Is Tarikh ul Arab easily available or is it also in unpublished form only?

Edited February 1, 2013 by SikhKhoj

[kdsingh80]

This is something interesting but wouldn't surprise me if its true, I have found that diairies of many contemponaries of Gurus exist, such as Guru Gobind Singh's bodyguards diairy etc.

Guru Nanak ordering people to keep kesh doesn't make this book (Tajdeen Nakshbandi's) appear any dubious since there are quite a few sources which talk of Guru Ji being kesdhari and also ordering people to keep hair, even other Gurus before Guru Gobind did (do you think that the people gathered on Vaisakhi day were moneh, and the guru gave them amrit while they were cleanshaven? Doesn't seem right. Do you think kirpan, kachehre etc were given to 10-30,000 people on the first day of Pahul?) A fact which is often ignored is that the 9 other Gurus just went deeper into Guru Nanaks teachings, hence their use of Nanak and also many subsequent Gurus having Shabads which are very similar to Guru Nanaks.

The first thing I would like to know is at what university in Medina Bhai Sayed Sahib were studying at? Currently only a few universities exist in Medina and the oldest of them dates back to the 1950's only not earlier (1930s as said by Sayed Sahib).

Then I would like to see Sayed Sahibs own notes being scanned. Someone could possibly also contact a Muslim scholar here (GS Mann perhaps?) who has links in Saudia Arabia - the book would be of great value for us.

The Guru established Sikh sangats everywhere, even Mecca Medina but sadly we lost touch with them and have completely lost them even in India (MP, Bihar, UP etc) let alone other Asian countries.

Interesting to see how some of the facts mentioned corraborate with details given in some Janamsakhis and some other info is unknown to date, such as Qazi Rukndeen being executed for his love for Guru Nanak.

PS. Is Tarikh ul Arab easily available or is it also in unpublished form only?

If Guru's prior to Guru gobind singh ordered Sikhs to keep kesh then don't you think any non sikh historian could had noted this

important change.

I was reading a paper of

Contemporary Evidence on Sikh Rites and Rituals in

the Eighteenth Century

Karamjit K Malhotra

and it is written in it that "A report from the court

of Emperor Bahadur Shah, dated 24 May 1710, refers to the dismissal of the

Masands by Guru Gobind Singh by one stroke of the pen to establish the

Khalsa. ‘It was settled by him that the Sikhs of the Khalsa would not cut the hair

of the head, moustaches and beard and would be known as the Sikhs of the

Khalsa’. The report goes on to add that a great disturbance occurred among the

community of the Khatris over the new injunctions, due to which marriages

between the two groups were given up. Actual fighting took place at Ramdaspur

in pargana Patti.27 Writing in 1728-9, the author of the Asrar-i Samadi refers to

the followers of Banda Bahadur as ‘Singhs’ who wore unshorn hair; he refers

also to deg and teg.28

"

So it looks that keeping uncut hair was not acceptable to a section of khatri's and there was even fighting.

Also Bhai sahib singh, one of panj pyara was barber.It is written that he gave his occupation of barber after becoming singh

5. Bhai Sahib Singh (1662 - 1705)

The fourth to answer the call of Guru Gobind Singh and offer his head was Bhai Sahib Singh

Birth: Bidar, present day Karnataka, India, 1663. Born Sahib Chand.

Family: Son of Bhai Guru Narayana and his wife Ankamma Bai of the Nai clan.

Occupation: Barber.

Initiation: Anand Pur, 1699. Age 37.

Death: Chamkaur, December 7, 1705. Martyred age 44.

Upon initiation, Sahib Chand gave up the occupation and alliance of his Nai caste to become Sahib Singh and join the Khalsa warriors. The meaning of Sahib is lordly or masterful and Singh is lion, qualities inherent in the five beloved Panj Pyare. Bhai Sahib Singh fought beside Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa in Anand Pur and at the battle of Chamkaur in December 7, 1705 where he died.

http://sikhism.about.com/od/historicalpersonalities/tp/Panj-Pyare-The-Five-Beloved.htm

If Bhai sahib singh was cutting hair before becoming a khalsa , then does it not point that cutting hair was not something totally unacceptable.he was a devout sikh that's why he gave his head

Edited February 1, 2013 by kdsingh80

[SikhKhoj]

There is no change, Hindus at the time of Guru Nanak did keep kesh, in fact according to the Manusmritee the punishment of a criminal is shaving their hair off. The Meherban Janamsakhi confirms Guru Ji having long kesh. There is an arab book of 12th century which talks of people of Hind and say they don't remove hair from any part of the body - so being kesdhari wasn't a new practise.

Many people converted during Guru Nanaks time and kept kesh, think of the Sobti qaum in Iraq or as Bhai Sayed Sahib says some of the Arab Nanakpanthi Sikhs who kept kesh till 1930s (when Sayed Sahib met them). 'Mainstream Sikhs' lost contact with these Nanakpanthis and overtime they reverted back to their faith, such as King Shivnabh made Srilanka a Sikh nation but it isn't anymore? Few kingdoms in Bihar area had Nanakpanthi kings (some of their palaces till date have "Gurdwaras" inside).Even today there are millions of Nanakpanthis in Sindh (Pak) and states outside of Punjab. Due to turmulent situations the Panth faced in 18th/19th century we lost contact with these Sikhs. Ever wondered why Baba deep singh wrote an arabic bir of SGGS?

I think it isn't wise to assume that the Khalsa didnt have hair at the first amrit sanchar - do you think all the people came there without Kachehre, Kirpans etc and Guru Sahib had a stock? Theres many many books mentioning the Guru ordering Sikhs to keep hair - perhaps post 1699 it became even a more necessary thing to differentiate between Khalsa and others but I don't believe that the previous Gurus didnt keep kesh or the Sikhs didn't.

KD Singh, where does it say that the fight had taken place because of Kesh? It says 'new injunctions' doesn't specify what, could be eating of Jhatka maas aswell? Many Hindus have been against Sikhi since the beginning as they see it as a threat to their Brahmanvaadi culture. The fight was rather because Sikhi was flourishing (on the cost of Hinduism) rather than the Sikhs keeping hair.

Edited February 2, 2013 by SikhKhoj

[kdsingh80]

There is no change, Hindus at the time of Guru Nanak did keep kesh, in fact according to the Manusmritee the punishment of a criminal is shaving their hair off. The Meherban Janamsakhi confirms Guru Ji having long kesh. There is an arab book of 12th century which talks of people of Hind and say they don't remove hair from any part of the body - so being kesdhari wasn't a new practise.

Hinduism is a very big religion , may be in some area's people keep uncut hair.But there is no evidence that Hindu's kept uncut hair.If you have seen Tv serial Chanakya , it shows men having long hair but with clean shaven face

Many people converted during Guru Nanaks time and kept kesh, think of the Sobti qaum in Iraq or as Bhai Sayed Sahib says some of the Arab Nanakpanthi Sikhs who kept kesh till 1930s (when Sayed Sahib met them). 'Mainstream Sikhs' lost contact with these Nanakpanthis and overtime they reverted back to their faith, such as King Shivnabh made Srilanka a Sikh nation but it isn't anymore? Few kingdoms in Bihar area had Nanakpanthi kings (some of their palaces till date have "Gurdwaras" inside).Even today there are millions of Nanakpanthis in Sindh (Pak) and states outside of Punjab. Due to turmulent situations the Panth faced in 18th/19th century we lost contact with these Sikhs. Ever wondered why Baba deep singh wrote an arabic bir of SGGS?

May be few sikhs from the time of Guru Nanak kept uncut hair, but the question is whether it was mandatory. I read book of my sister on sikh history which was part of curriculam in her sikh 7th grade school.The sikh history book mentioned that Guru's wer keshdhari and those who were very close to Guru were also use to keep hair.It also mentioned that Sikhs asked question to Guru Gobind singh ji that if they keep uncut hair then people will laugh at them and Guru ji replied that if they keep arms then people will not laugh at them..This history books was coming from sikh scholars and was part of curriculam so they must have taken this from somewhere that is considered as reliable

Also I mentioned about Bhai Sahib singh ji who was barber .How is it possible for barber to be a sikh?

KD Singh, where does it say that the fight had taken place because of Kesh? It says 'new injunctions' doesn't specify what, could be eating of Jhatka maas aswell? Many Hindus have been against Sikhi since the beginning as they see it as a threat to their Brahmanvaadi culture. The fight was rather because Sikhi was flourishing (on the cost of Hinduism) rather than the Sikhs keeping hair.

Yes it does not clearly says that infighting was because of kesh, but it mention that sikhs of khalsa will keep uncut , means this was something new for mughal court and most probably new injuctions were 5ks

Also is it not rue that in sainapat Guru gobind singh told sikhs to abandon Bhadan ceremony , which means that Sikhs were doing bhadan ceremony before 1699

[SikhKhoj]

Hinduism is a very big religion , may be in some area's people keep

uncut hair.But there is no evidence that Hindu's kept uncut hair.If you

have seen Tv serial Chanakya , it shows men having long hair but with

clean shaven face

1. There is an arabic source of the mid 11th century which says that people of the sub-continent didn't remove hair from any part of the body (Al Barn'ees book).

2. Since when is a TV serial a source of 'truth' or even a valid point in a debate? Shootout at Lokhandwala portrays defending Singhs in Harmandar Sahib 1984 as terrorists, is that true?

May be few sikhs from the time of Guru Nanak kept uncut hair, but the

question is whether it was mandatory. I read book of my sister on sikh

history which was part of curriculam in her sikh 7th grade school.The

sikh history book mentioned that Guru's wer keshdhari and those who were

very close to Guru were also use to keep hair.It also mentioned that

Sikhs asked question to Guru Gobind singh ji that if they keep uncut

hair then people will laugh at them and Guru ji replied that if they

keep arms then people will not laugh at them..This history books was

coming from sikh scholars and was part of curriculam so they must have

taken this from somewhere that is considered as reliable

Also I mentioned about Bhai Sahib singh ji who was barber .How is it possible for barber to be a sikh?

School books are not authentic sources, I have seen school books having different quotes (such as attributing Na Kahun Ab Ki Na Kahun Tab ki to Bulleh Shah and even not the correct lines). I want historical sources.

The Sobti people kept their hair and so did many others, doesn't make sense that only the close ones kept Kesh. Where did the people ask Guru Ji this question? Which historical source, quoteplease.

Bhai Sahib Singh was from Barber 'caste', who says he was occupied as a barber? Not every chamar does work related to chamra does he?

Yes it does not clearly says that infighting was because of kesh,

but it mention that sikhs of khalsa will keep uncut , means this was

something new for mughal court and most probably new injuctions were 5ks

Also is it not rue that in sainapat Guru gobind singh told sikhs to

abandon Bhadan ceremony , which means that Sikhs were doing bhadan

ceremony before 1699

Guru ji also says don't kill daughters or have relations with them, does that mean it was something new - Sikhs before were kurimaar? (this is in fact common in all historical sources)

5Ks or Trai Mudra weren't a new injunction. If Kesh were kept before, kanga was kept too. Kirpan has been part and parcel of Sikhs since 5th Guru - and even Guru Nanak Sahib are said to have kept shasters with them (altough I must admit I haven't come across a source for this). Kara of Guru Tegh Bahadur is preserved in India and Guru Nanak is said to have gifted a kara to a king in Africa as well. I doubt that the Sikhs pre-1699 (or whatever date) wandered around kachehra-less.

[kdsingh80]

1. There is an arabic source of the mid 11th century which says that people of the sub-continent didn't remove hair from any part of the body (Al Barn'ees book).

2. Since when is a TV serial a source of 'truth' or even a valid point in a debate? Shootout at Lokhandwala portrays defending Singhs in Harmandar Sahib 1984 as terrorists, is that true?

Here is what Fa Hien wrote about hairstyles of Indians

Generally, hair was worn loose by men, shoulder-length and curled, in the gurnakuntala style, sometimes with a head band to hold it in place, or adorned with a strand of pearls. Very short hair was also fairly common and looked much like the hair worn today except that clear parting in the hair was seldom visible.

http://www.4to40.com/history/index.asp?p=Gupta_Period_Early_Fourth_to_Mid-Eighth_Centuary_A.D.&k=Ancient_Indian_Costume#Headgear%20and%20Hairstyles

The reason I mentioned serial Chanakya because the serial was much praised for accurate description of Indians in ancient times

School books are not authentic sources, I have seen school books having different quotes (such as attributing Na Kahun Ab Ki Na Kahun Tab ki to Bulleh Shah and even not the correct lines). I want historical sources.

The Sobti people kept their hair and so did many others, doesn't make sense that only the close ones kept Kesh. Where did the people ask Guru Ji this question? Which historical source, quoteplease.

The book I mentioned was approved by DSGMC and was written sikh scholars.Anyway at present I dont have it , but will try to find

5Ks or Trai Mudra weren't a new injunction. If Kesh were kept before, kanga was kept too. Kirpan has been part and parcel of Sikhs since 5th Guru - and even Guru Nanak Sahib are said to have kept shasters with them (altough I must admit I haven't come across a source for this). Kara of Guru Tegh Bahadur is preserved in India and Guru Nanak is said to have gifted a kara to a king in Africa as well. I doubt that the Sikhs pre-1699 (or whatever date) wandered around kachehra-less.

If Kesh or other 5 ks were so important then how come Bhai Gurdas ji forgot to mention them in any of their vaars where he several times describe sikhs

Edited February 4, 2013 by kdsingh80

[SikhKhoj]

Here is what Fa Hien wrote about hairstyles of Indians

Seriously? Fa hien lived 18 centuries before Guru Nanak while the book I quote was written merely 3 centuries before the Guru. We both know what account is most likely to represent the situation at Guru Nanaks time.

The reason I mentioned serial Chanakya because the serial was much praised for accurate description of Indians in ancient times

Still not a source you can use for debate - use historical sources.

The book I mentioned was approved by DSGMC and was written sikh scholars.Anyway at present I dont have it , but will try to find

Sikh scholars write alot - doesn't mean it is all right, please refer to historical sources not schoolbooks.

If Kesh or other 5 ks were so important then how come Bhai Gurdas ji

forgot to mention them in any of their vaars where he several times

describe sikhs

The 5 K's were never known as such, nor were 4 'Bujjar Kurehits'. The guru (according to all sources) gave kurehits to the Khalsa but he didn't specify 4, it was just decided by Khalsa lateron (SRM).

Same way the Guru didn't exactly say wear the 5 K's from now on because Sikhs were already wearing it and there wasn't really a concept of '5ks' - it was just a term invented lateron. If not, then do you think the Guru had a stock of 10,000 (or more, the number of Sikhs who took 'Amrit) Kachehre, Kirpans at Anandpur? Sounds impractical.

The Sikhs were shasterdhari since Guru Hargobind Sahibs time, and it was reinforced over time by Guru Gobind Singh too (such as the mock attack on the Sangat etc, asking them to bring arms in early 1690s).

Mehervan Janamsakhi mentions the Guru having long hair.

[Guest A Muslim]

Hi Guys, A fact: Only a Muslim is allowed in Mecca and only a Muslim would want to go to Mecca (to worship). Also you are saying your first transcript was written by a Muslim. Now I know how much Sikhs hate Muslim. So this could be a fabrication and all lies.

OR could it be that Sikhs have misunderstood Guru Nanaks teachings. I can not answer these questions because I am a Muslim and my opinion would only insult you and this is not my intention.

We Muslims do not hate Sikhs, but Sikhs hate us. Muslims could have created Sikhism, something to think about

[paapiman]

Hi Guys, A fact: Only a Muslim is allowed in Mecca and only a Muslim would want to go to Mecca (to worship). Also you are saying your first transcript was written by a Muslim. Now I know how much Sikhs hate Muslim. So this could be a fabrication and all lies.

Do you think all people who enter into the city of Mecca, are checked if they are Muslims or not? 

 

We Muslims do not hate Sikhs, but Sikhs hate us. Muslims could have created Sikhism, something to think about

Sikhs do not hate Muslims. Idiots/fools hate people based on their religion, race, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 8, 2015 by paapiman

[Guest]

Dalsingh:

 

the practice of keeping kesh since to have started earlier than Guru Gobind Singh. There is a reference in Guru Granth Sahib in the Bhatt bani saying something about the long-haired Sikhs are true worshippers of Truth.... The bhatts wrote during the time of Guru Ram Dass..

Truth is Sikhism is not khalsa and Gurru Naka told us ins Gurbani and Shabads to not start a Panth (religion), but we did, and Gurur Nanak also told us to not do religious rituals but we do (amrit sanaskar), Khalsa is not from the creator but comes from Hindu text, in accordance to Maha Bharta, The having the F k's are the same as select religious worshiping; also was not acceped by In Sikhism.