Thoughts Please

[DSG]

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru Ji Ke Fateh

Piaree sangat Ji ,I came across a booklet which explains ALL OF THE DASAM GRANTH IS NOT SIRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI's

The booklet ( English part of it) has been scanned and attached to this thread .

May be N3O can ask Giani Sher Singh Ji

I know this topic is a bit of a delicate subject , any thoughts authenticity of the authors findings

dgscan0001.pdf

dgscan20001.pdf

[dalsingh101]

I skimmed through the first one.

One criticism is that it takes a way too literal approach to the contents of DG. Especially the chariters.

Another thing I think is that aspects of the DG were aimed at informing Sikhs of important 'worldly' matters, and complex issues of male-female interaction with dynamics of power, attraction, deceit.

There are MANY subtle allusions in the Granth.

One place where Im beginning to disagree with a lot of mainsteam people is in categorising the contents of DG. Some of it is clearly bani in the commonly understood sense i.e. Jaap Sahib. Whilst other sections seem to be aimed at raising awareness of complex issues. Improving classical Indic knowledge in Sikhs and inspirational and creative mythological accounts of battles.

[dalsingh101]

Just to add. Mixing mythological accounts with contemporary needs is what the best writers in the world do. So the essay author's criticism of this is flawed. The way Mughals and Pathans have been integrated into indic narratives as demon derived warriors is perfectly logical given the wars that were obviously about to kick off at the time. It's actually a stroke of genius. Integrating the semitic with the indic.

Edited June 10, 2013 by dalsingh101

[DSG]

In my opinion if the authors research and comments are valid , and he states that the Dasam Granth is a mixture of several books and compiled into one in 1897. With the explicit description of male/female relationships , description of openly using of Bhang I find it hard to believe its the writing of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji . May be its my limited understanding and in order to understand its true meaning one needs to be at a certain level of Gian / Spirituality, but as a novice reading the authors comment about not all of Dasam Granth is written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji , the detail expressed , to be honest its shocking to read.

[chatanga1]

Piaree sangat Ji ,I came across a booklet which explains ALL OF THE DASAM GRANTH IS NOT SIRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI's

why should it be a problem? is all of Guru Granth Sahib by the Guru's?

[chatanga1]

In my opinion if the authors research and comments are valid , and he states that the Dasam Granth is a mixture of several books and compiled into one in 1897.

the author's research is poor if he feels that the several books were compiled into 1 volume in 1897.

[dalsingh101]

In my opinion if the authors research and comments are valid , and he states that the Dasam Granth is a mixture of several books and compiled into one in 1897. With the explicit description of male/female relationships , description of openly using of Bhang I find it hard to believe its the writing of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji . May be its my limited understanding and in order to understand its true meaning one needs to be at a certain level of Gian / Spirituality, but as a novice reading the authors comment about not all of Dasam Granth is written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji , the detail expressed , to be honest its shocking to read.

There are older dated ones from the 1700s apparently.

Sometimes I too entertain the thought that the granth may be a compilation of both Guru ji and some contemporary poets of the darbar. but these days it has become tantamount to sacrilege to say such a thing!

I see a lot of value in the granth whatever the case may be.

[jaikaara]

Such theories i find them misleading ..we can quote more than this from the Bani of the Gurus and defeat the purpose of the existence of the Panth.

I will give you an example...Guru Nanakdev ji 's Dakkhani Oankaar...in the beginning itself there is :

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਦਖਣੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ

रामकली महला १ दखणी ओअंकारु

raamkalee mehlaa 1 dakh-nee o-ankaar

Raamkalee, First Mehl, Dakhanee, Ongkaar:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥

ओअंकारि ब्रहमा उतपति ॥

o-ankaar barahmaa utpat.

From Ongkaar, the One Universal Creator God, Brahma was
created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ॥

ओअंकारु कीआ जिनि चिति ॥

o-ankaar kee-aa jin chit.

He kept Ongkaar in his consciousness.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸੈਲ ਜੁਗ ਭਏ ॥

ओअंकारि सैल जुग भए ॥

o-ankaar sail jug bha-ay.

From Ongkaar, the mountains and the ages were created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥

ओअंकारि बेद निरमए ॥

o-ankaar bayd nirma-ay.

Ongkaar created the Vedas.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਧਰੇ ॥

ओअंकारि सबदि उधरे ॥

o-ankaar sabad uDhray.

Ongkaar saves the world through the Shabad.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੇ ॥

ओअंकारि गुरमुखि तरे ॥

o-ankaar gurmukh taray.

Ongkaar saves the Gurmukhs.

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ओनम अखर सुणहु बीचारु ॥

onam akhar sunhu beechaar.

Listen to the Message of the Universal, Imperishable Creator
Lord.

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੧॥

ओनम अखरु त्रिभवण सारु ॥१॥

onam akhar taribhavan saar. ||1||

The Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord is the essence of
the three worlds. ||1||

ਸੁਣਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਕਿਆ ਲਿਖਹੁ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥

सुणि पाडे किआ लिखहु जंजाला ॥

sun paaday ki-aa likhahu janjaalaa.

Listen, O Pandit, O religious scholar, why are you writing
about worldly debates?

ਲਿਖੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

लिखु राम नाम गुरमुखि गोपाला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

(reference : http://gurbanifiles.org/special_bani/Oankaar%20(GDRE).zip )


Now in the above salok : see how explanations can come up...Guru Nanakdev ji says Oankaar Bed nirmaye ...which means Oankaar is the creator of the Vedas...Saadh Sangat ji now someone can inpret that of the Oankaar ..The Supreme Power you worship created the Vedas ..then why on earth do you want to worship any other Granth ???

You get my point ..? Philosophically meanings can come up

Going further ..the last lines say Likh Ram Naam Gurmukh Gopala ...which again someone would say ..there is no reference to Waheguru ..then why on earth do you guys come up with the concept of Waheguru...


I am no scholar ..just trying to be on the learning path .. so mistakes will happen...Bhula chuka muaaf karni Saadh Sangat ji ..

[jaikaara]

There are older dated ones from the 1700s apparently.

Sometimes I too entertain the thought that the granth may be a compilation of both Guru ji and some contemporary poets of the darbar. but these days it has become tantamount to sacrilege to say such a thing!

I see a lot of value in the granth whatever the case may be.

Bhaa ji this is possible in the way that Guru Maharaaj would be with them..compositions coming up and getting discussed. This is my personal opinion...

[DSG]

why should it be a problem? is all of Guru Granth Sahib by the Guru's?

I dont see it as a problem , but if it is claimed that all the content of Dasam Granth is by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji , and the shortfalls highlighted as explained in the authors booklet that it isnt , I think thats what the author is trying to put across , especially when he highlights the episodes regarding the explicit male/female relationship , openly use of Bhang and many more .

[dalsingh101]

I dont see it as a problem , but if it is claimed that all the content of Dasam Granth is by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji , and the shortfalls highlighted as explained in the authors booklet that it isnt , I think thats what the author is trying to put across , especially when he highlights the episodes regarding the explicit male/female relationship , openly use of Bhang and many more .

Why would Guru ji want to hide realities of life from his disciples?

I believe that current 'conservative' mindset amongst Sikhs is more the result of the colonial experience with its repressed Victorian mindset,which transferred over (whilst Sikhs were subjugated), than anything from within our own faith/way of life.

Edited June 13, 2013 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

DSG

Why not make a list of all points that the article makes and we can all discuss the points one by one.

[Bornfearless]

Sorry to interrupt in between your discussion but I am very curious to know what is Dasam Granth and where did we find it?

as per the hukum of 10v pathshahi Guru Granth Sahib is the only Granth then what about Dasam Granth?

[DSG]

Bhagat Singh good suggestion ( basically its the text in the original pdf that was loaded , an extract of it is listed below) ,

Let me add , this topic is in no way shape or form tellng the sangat what they should or should not read or believe , that is up to the individual. I have very limited infact "zero" knowledge of the topic being discussed , but came across the booklet written by Prem Singh Kalsi , his views about dasam granth. so thought get the sangats views .

Some of the points the author states :-

1.By accepting Dasam Granth as the creation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji,the innocent Sikhs are knowingly/unknowingly disrespecting Guru Sahib Ji.

2. This , so called Granth is full of serious blunders, even an ordinary writer would not make such serious mistakes. We believe that under a calculated conspiracy Guru Gobind Singh's name is being propogated as its author.

3. After reading this Granth I found out that a large part of this is merely translations of Brahmnical scriptures.

4. Its original name was Bachittar Natak ( A strange drama). At the end of each chapter its author gives his closing remarks as, " Iti Sri Bachittar Natak Granthe... ( name of the chapter) Sampuran Shubhmasat".

5. In the Bachittar Natak , there is nowhere the name Dasam Granth has been mentioned.

6. To judge a given scriptures authenticity the scholars have laid down three basic rules :-

1. The content of a given scripture. When it was written. If no exact date or year available,with

some discrepancies it still can be judged.

2. Who is the author ?

3. Author's honesty and integrity.

Dasam granth fails on all these three.

The fact remains that this so called Granth consists of a mixture pf translated versions of Brahamnical scriptures suhc as ; Maarkande Puraan, Shiv Puraan, Sri Madd Bhagwat Puraan and many more.

Its name has been modified seven times so far , these are :-

1. Bachittar Naatak

2. Samund Saagar Granth

3. Vidya Saagar Granth

4. Dasam Granth

5. Dasam Paatshaah Ka granth

6. Sri Dasam Granth

7. Sri Guru Granth Sahib

7. Bachittar Naatak , which is propogated as the life story of Guru Gobind Singh , is a small part of this bigger Granth.

8. The Charitro Pakhyaan is nearly one third of this Granth written on 580 pages. It contains 404 vulgar stories which narrate sexual episodes preaching usage of drugs,alcohol and other intoxicants.

8. In episode no.19 a mother is shown having sex with his son

9.Episodes no.21,22 and 23 , prostitute Anup Kunwar dupes King's ( Guru Gobind Singh?) servant Magan to meet with her mistress who would teach the King a special mantra. Next part of this episode is so vulgar , it is not possible for me to explain it here.

10.Episode No.60 encourages sexual relationship between brothers and sisters of faith ( Dharam da rishta)

11.Episode No. 80 is the story of Radha and Krishan which has been described in a very explicit way.

12. Episode no. 183 teaches to have sexual intercourse with your own daughter after a drinking bout.

13. Episode no. 142 teaches a daughter to kill her father and elope with her lover.

14. Again the episode no. 357 teaches to have sex with women after consuming Bhang,Opium and Poppy husk.

15. The conspirators are trying to give the same reverence to Dasam Granth as to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whereas, no one can find any mistakes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however ,this so called Dasam Granth is littered with blunders.

16 On countless times the writer of this Granth advises its readers to correct his mistakes , he says , "Bhool Pari lahu lehu sudhaara"

[chatanga1]

Sorry to interrupt in between your discussion but I am very curious to know what is Dasam Granth and where did we find it?

What do you mean by find it?

Like someone was walking around and found it somewhere?

2. This , so called Granth is full of serious blunders, even an ordinary writer would not make such serious mistakes. We believe that under a calculated conspiracy Guru Gobind Singh's name is being propogated as its author.

3. After reading this Granth I found out that a large part of this is merely translations of Brahmnical scriptures.

i dont have the time for the others, but these i would like to say, if the writers of the pamphlet can say exactly what is a blunder, then we can look at it.

RE: point no 3, i do not beleieve that the pamphlet writer has even read this granth, but assuming he has, he has not understood the meanings of the words, nor the context in which it has been written.

these shankas are simply old wine, in an old bottle. they have been answered time and time before.

Edited June 15, 2013 by chatanga1

[jaikaara]

I suggest you guys to read :

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib - Questions and Answers - Book By G. S. Mann and K. Singh

http://www.amazon.com/Sri-Dasam-Granth-Sahib-Questions/dp/0956843506

http://jsks.biz/sri-dasam-granth-sahib-questions-and-answers-g-s-mann?filter_name=dasam%20granth

[BhagatSingh]

DSG

1. Dasam Granth is a disrespect to the Guru.

This is not an argument on its own.

2. Dasam Granth has mistakes.

What mistakes?

3. Parts of Dasam granth are translations of other writings.

So what?

4. Bachittar Natak, the composition within Dasam Granth, mentions "Bachittar Natak Granth"

Yeah it's certainly possible that Bachittar Natak was a different book. Certainly the narative behind Dasam Granth is that there were several volumes of work prepared by Guru Gobind Singh ji (either written by himself or narrated to a scribe or narrated to a sangat and later written), some of which were lost others that were recovered by Bhai Mani Singh were compiled into one book.

5. Bachittar natak does not mention "Dasam Granth"

And for the above reason you would not see "Dasam Granth" in any of the writings. And you don't see "Guru Granth" or "Adi Granth" mentioned anywhere in Adi Guru Granth Sahib.

6. Fails on a test of authenticity.

Let's see the results of this test. And what are the results when the same test was given to Guru Granth Sahib?

7. Bachittar Natak is a small part of Dasam Granth

I don't think anyone disputes that lol.

8. Charitropakhyan is 1/3 of Dasam Granth and contains stories you don't like.

Let's see your translations of these stories 8-14.

15. Dasam Granth is being given the same status as Guru Granth Sahib.

To each their own?

16. Author says that "if there are errors correct them"

So what?

[dalsingh101]

Another interesting idea concerns the possibility that Guru ji wrote stuff that wasn't Gurbani, but served other purposes.

[jaikaara]

DSG

1. Dasam Granth is a disrespect to the Guru.

This is not an argument on its own.

2. Dasam Granth has mistakes.

What mistakes?

3. Parts of Dasam granth are translations of other writings.

So what?

4. Bachittar Natak, the composition within Dasam Granth, mentions "Bachittar Natak Granth"

Yeah it's certainly possible that Bachittar Natak was a different book. Certainly the narative behind Dasam Granth is that there were several volumes of work prepared by Guru Gobind Singh ji (either written by himself or narrated to a scribe or narrated to a sangat and later written), some of which were lost others that were recovered by Bhai Mani Singh were compiled into one book.

5. Bachittar natak does not mention "Dasam Granth"

And for the above reason you would not see "Dasam Granth" in any of the writings. And you don't see "Guru Granth" or "Adi Granth" mentioned anywhere in Adi Guru Granth Sahib.

6. Fails on a test of authenticity.

Let's see the results of this test. And what are the results when the same test was given to Guru Granth Sahib?

7. Bachittar Natak is a small part of Dasam Granth

I don't think anyone disputes that lol.

8. Charitropakhyan is 1/3 of Dasam Granth and contains stories you don't like.

Let's see your translations of these stories 8-14.

15. Dasam Granth is being given the same status as Guru Granth Sahib.

To each their own?

16. Author says that "if there are errors correct them"

So what?

Thanks bhaa ji !

[DSG]

Hi

Theres no real substance behind the answers provided (like so what ? what mistakes etc...) may be wrong but I sense a feel of ( oh no not that again ,not another one , reluctancy )... The reason for this topic was to gain some knowledge of this topic , according to whats stated in the booket by Mr Kalsi is it Valid / Invalid.

Certain points could have been bounced back to Mr Kalsi or even asked to comment on any thoughts but obviously with a bit of substance behind the replies.

Basically my view is that I agree 100% with DALsINGH , that read and take any bits that would help you and guide you in your life or spiritual journey.

As many people I have spoken to , are basing it on its not 100% Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani , and should not have the same status as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , if a person(s) , want to read then they can at their own leisure. There is a lot of confusion , i put my hand up and admit i am still confused , in the sense should their be parkash of the Dasam Granth next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , why both , if Mr Kalsi's research is Valid then should there be Parkash of Dasam Granth. Are there 3rd parties trying to influence the Sikhs , divide them into different sects ( Although many will say the division is already there). Then a part of me says , forget it , focus on your own spirtual journey leave everyone to their own understanding ,then is this being selfish ?

Just some thoughts , may be a dead end , may be a waste of time , only God knows.

[dalsingh101]

^^

How is vichaar a dead end?

I'm not surprised at what you're feeling or even Mr. Kalsi's 'research'. I believe there are reasons for all this, a main one being that for the past 50/60 years, most of the research in English supported the notion that DG was not wholly the work of dasmesh pita. Even Rattan Singh Jaggi, who many consider a foremost authority on the subject originally leaned this way.

People should appreciate that the DG was largely unavailable to people for a long while, especially as no substantial English translation existed until fairly recently. Couple this with the fact of linguistic difficulties with Braj Bhasha for majority Panjabis, problems with themes such as sexual dynamics and Indic (read 'Hindu') mythology in a post Singh Sabha world (probably influenced itself by repressed Victorian attitudes towards sexual matters), it isn't any surprise to me that people are/were confused about the granth.

If we study Sikh past and contextualise the granth (and even relate it to current problems with girls being seduced for instance), then the relevance and purpose of the granth become clearer. People who are the most to blame are probably those who want some kind of outright replication of Shri Guru Granth Sahib ji and are confused and upset with the wider worldly, historical context of the DG. Maybe the real problem is that dasmesh pita fostered an open minded, direct, confronting, questioning society, but today we have become conservatives and can't relate to our own literature/past as a result - projecting our dissonance onto our written heritage.

Please download and read this brief biography of dasmesh pita to get an interesting, different historical contextualisation of the growth and development of the Dasam Granth within the lifetime of Guru Gobind Singh. It is the book called 'Guru Gobind Singh A Biographical Study-J.S.Grewal-English.pdf' in the following link. It should help.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/id7crkcslzi3e0p/PBVhXDvFv0/Sikh-Books-English

[BhagatSingh]

Theres no real substance behind the answers provided (like so what ?

what mistakes etc...) may be wrong but I sense a feel of ( oh no not

that again ,not another one , reluctancy )... The reason for this topic

was to gain some knowledge of this topic , according to whats stated in

the booket by Mr Kalsi is it Valid / Invalid.

They were not rhetorical questions DSG.

For the discussion to go forward you must discuss. You have to make statements and you have to back it up. One line argument will be responded with one line counter argument. E.g. if all you can say is "DG has translations of an older book" you are going to get a response "so what?". It should be quite obvious that you have to say more about it, what is means, and flesh it out into an argument. Most of your points aren't even an argument, they are just a statement of fact. Are we supposed to guess what's going in your head? You can't sit back and throw a book at us (not even a book it's just two pages, with no substance), expecting a discussion out of it. You have to be the book if you agree with it and present in your words what the book says.

[DSG]

How is vichaar a dead end?

Dead in the sense , is it worth pursuing and understanding DG , whether theres a conspiracy by 3rd parties to break/confuse the Sikh quom ? or by doing this more harm is caused rather than good?

If change is needed , will the Sikh panth change for example Mr Kalsi's book , will it change people , cause friction , cause fights ? Is it a dead end ? Will some read the booklet and say , fair points, some,what a disgrace, some ,Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji cannot right such explicit material, some , he dont know what he is talking about etc...

Thanks for the link DALSINGH will take a look

BhagatSingh

Sorry for not being clear ( i thought i was )

Is the booklet not clear ?

Most of your points aren't even an argument, they are just a statement of fact.

Do you agree with whats stated in the booklet .

As the booklet by Mr Kalsi ( is basically stating arguments as to why DG is not Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji's creation , its a conspiracy by 3rd parties to confuse and break upthe Sikhs, it has mostly Brahmnical in nature. The booklet has many references )

If I am still being rhetoric ( probably am) , maybe we can get the author of the booket to explain his research and findings . ( mrkalsi@hotmail.com)

[dalsingh101]

Dead in the sense , is it worth pursuing and understanding DG

Personally I'd argue that any people attempting to understand, explore and reflect upon their literary heritage is a worthwhile activity - with the exception of certain people who use literature as some supremacist scaffolding for their sense of 'national' selves. When we look at the pre-annexation evidence it looks like our Gurus (especially dasmesh pita) actively encouraged and facilitated not only the exploration of existing literature, but also creative adaptation. So for me, studying this kind of stuff is following in the footsteps of my Guru in my own little way. The DG gets even more interesting because of its diversity and all of the questions exploration forces us to confront.

The real problem (in my eyes) lies with the narrow minded on both sides who act like they know everything, but those kind of people (probably a majority in a mainly rural society like ours), are prone to see in deterministic lenses - one way or another.

So what if I never get conclusive answers to all my questions on the DG! So far exploring it has clearly had an effect of opening my mind - which is never a bad thing. That's what I want - to grow and become wiser. Talking subjectively, DG clearly helped me to do this. That's how I feel anyway.

whether theres a conspiracy by 3rd parties to break/confuse the Sikh quom

Apnay can be pretty fudu as a people, we don't need outsiders to try and break us - we do a top notch job ourselves over caste and other bullshit. The real problem isn't outsiders it's our own narrow mindedness that demonstrates itself with people being incapable of having a healthy, open minded debate. If it wasn't DG, we'd find some other thing to wrangle over.

or by doing this more harm is caused rather than good?

So we should capitulate to narrow mindedness and ignorance? Living like that might be okay for some but it certainly isn't for me. We're already a backward people people, ducking these things will only make us even more retarded.

If change is needed , will the Sikh panth change for example Mr Kalsi's book , will it change people , cause friction , cause fights ? Is it a dead end ? Will some read the booklet and say , fair points, some,what a disgrace, some ,Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji cannot right such explicit material, some , he dont know what he is talking about etc...

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what people are/ will be doing. lol

[DSG]

Good points DalSingh , do you mind (that is ,if you want to )sharing your experience/knowledge that helped you when reading DG ?

Thanks