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Does The 9Th Guru Profess To Being A Hindu?


Mr Sardar

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Alright it looks this thread has run its course, this thread will be locked in 2 days. Both parties can give their closing statements. Lets readers research and decide on their own.

N30 you are right but there is no need to lock the thread, what we need to do is start threads discussing 1 point only and stick to that point (this is where you come in). This thread has become a mess because there are a lot of points being discussed and none of them are really being clarified.

Actually, the thread title is too broad. There should be more specific threads, like one discussing caste, another discussing certain spiritual principles, yet another discussing history.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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Actually, the thread title is too broad. There should be more specific threads, like one discussing caste, another discussing certain spiritual principles, yet another discussing history.

Well, if we are going to discuss what it means to be Sikh: it is a multifaceted discussion encompassing a range of things and not just a linear matter. Sikhi has embedded spiritual, social, political and historical facets and is arguably, better understood in a broader way than the use of simplistic definitions. I think, excluding 1 or more factors actually gives a more skewed viewed. That is exactly what Sher is doing; if we exclude anything but SGGS ji then we essentially take Khalsa out of the equation - which is ridiculous.

It's best to try and see things in a wider spectrum/context; whilst realising that something as infinite and deep as Sikhi (with naam) is unlikely to be comprehensively definable by people like us.

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Arise my khalsa, the third Panth. Wearing blue and adorning weapons - Guru Gobind Singh

Guru Nanak Dev Ji said Singh wearing blue will rule the world.

The nation of Gandhi vs the nation of Gobind Singh. I now who I'd bet on. Auto correct even made it Gobind as I was typing gandhi.

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Also there is a contradiction in saying punjab is weak and then saying kshatriya are strong. At the end of the day, if you study it casteism came into Sikhi when the misls started fighting.

Before then and as long as nawab kapoor singh ji was there pendu jatt supremists didn't blink.

As far as khalistan issues, remember that the road to rule is paved with weapons. There are not 125,000 times more of you than Singh.

Also why does every prominent Hindu of the time including shiva ji proclaim that without pita ji and sikhs the border of Pakistan would likely be at the deccan?

I don't wish to insult personally but when das walks in singh saroop there is maan. Hind saroop means thief in many languages.

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I can't edit on mobile, but last point.

Sikh quo was made with bali of 40 mukte.

Hindu with what 40 devdas, or that ritual rape when a girl hits puberty? Finally, Sikhs been getting Anand karaj even Sindh Hindus.

The 19th century Hindu thing is for Punjabi Muslims.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ| ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ||

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Also why does every prominent Hindu of the time including shiva ji proclaim that without pita ji and sikhs the border of Pakistan would likely be at the deccan?

Sounds Like Bulleh Shah's saying reworded:

Nah Karoon Ab Kee,
Nah Karoon Baat Tab Kee.
Gar Na Hotey Guru Gobind Singh,
Sunat Hoti Sab Kee.
I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow;
I talk about today.
Had Gobind Singh not been there,
They would all be under Islamic sway.
This stuff tends to be read in gurdwaras and some sikhs read this aloud to muslims, I think you got to understand bulleh shah abit, the guy was a descendant of muhammad the "prophet" who was not held in high prestige of mullahs, but none the less he was a muhammden. It appears what bulleh shah is doing is trying to be sweet in his words to convert people when aurangzeb was rough, harsh, wikid, cruel and spilt much blood and collectively bulleh shah and auranzgeb spread islam. In some ways both can't exist without the other method of propogation, it appears peaceful spreading of islam doesn't seem to go far without some form of fear or terror of bloodshed and bloodshed without propogation would be a futile holy war for propogation of an ideology amongst infidels.

Bulleh shah took a sweet tongue shortly after sikh rule started the bitter tongue existed before and then after the fall of sikh rule. It's a political tact to say nice things to people you don't like, since if you talk bitterly you worsen your relations and in an act clouded by your emotions may give away information which may include weaknesses to attack. It's important to be very careful of such poems and it's not very wise to teach sikh children such poems without a better overall understanding of sikh first.

Mullahs in bulleh shahs times were not able to accept mughal and islamic rule was dead in punjab it took a while for the master slave attitude to change. Auranzgeb's methods of conversion by many sects are held to be sinful and also the convertees hold contempt for the ideology they have been converted into and tend to seek ways out as long as they are aware of the fact of their history and not brainwashed.

The saying is used rephrased with sikh history in reference to Sikhs being marginalized and discriminated by hindus, it seems many hindus discriminate regardless of even knowing sikh history for might makes right and when you have two opposing views they are bound to clash hence this harmonic form of propagating religion seems to be in use by the 1% upper ruling class of hindus. Bottom line is respect everyone but don't let go of your history and heritage.
Edited by JatherdarSahib
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  • 2 weeks later...

Bulleh Shah never wrote this Ab kee Tab kee.

get over such bombastic claims whuch does not make any sense.

Then you can eat that - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AoNQIzJkfU

It' really does not matter if he said that or not as sri guru gobind singh ji glory speak for itself but to humble down dumwits of all kinds sometimes one have to use references like these to knock some sense in people.

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There is a whole chand in Jaap Sahib using Islamic terminology to describe God; Sikhs must be Muslim then....

There's another perspective, one that is very unorthodox (and probably going to be unpopular with some brothers) but should be expressed anyway:

The philosophy of jaap sahib still revolves around pantheism which modern day muslims reject only sufis accept pantheism and many branches won't call sikhs sufis since we don't believe in the koran and hold it up, or regard shariah as high or announce muhammad as a prophet only some nand singh circles which are astray rarely say it.

". A well-known Rig Vedic hymn says: "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously" (Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti)"

"Similarly, in the Bhagavad Gītā(4:11), God, manifesting as an incarnation, states: "As people approach me, so I receive them. All paths lead to me" (ye yathā māṃ prapadyante tāṃs tathāiva bhajāmyaham mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ)"

As the gita and veda has expressed to know brahma, vishnu, ram, maha-kal as allah, kudha, parvidagar, rahim, rab, malik, kareem, khaliq, kabir, doesn't go against hindu dharma. But the opposite to call Allah as Vishnu or Ram would be blasphemy around many circles of muslims on some accept it and those sufis who accept it these days only do so as a means to convert hindus or to justify the historical errors islam faces claiming itself to be the first religion of humanity.

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Bulleh Shah never wrote this Ab kee Tab kee.He also did not "convert people" in fact he was considered a kafir by the Qazis.

get over such bombastic claims which do not make any sense.

Even sufis who do convert get called kaffirs, sunnis call shia kaffirs all islamic sects tend to have a few people jumping up and down shouting kaffir.

Well it's largely held even around bulleh shahs grave that he did state ab kee tab kee - no sikh would write gobind singh in a poem they would write guru gobind singh for they are a guru. Nor would they be interested in talking largely about the islamic creed of the sunnah. Bulleh Shah composed that during banda singh bahadur victory and established rule, he as many writers do praise the authority of their time, while condemning the old.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Even sufis who do convert get called kaffirs, sunnis call shia kaffirs all islamic sects tend to have a few people jumping up and down shouting kaffir.

Well it's largely held even around bulleh shahs grave that he did state ab kee tab kee - no sikh would write gobind singh in a poem they would write guru gobind singh for they are a guru. Nor would they be interested in talking largely about the islamic creed of the sunnah. Bulleh Shah composed that during banda singh bahadur victory and established rule, he as many writers do praise the authority of their time, while condemning the old.

Bhai Nand Lal is known to have done something similar.

The compositions of Bhai Nand Lal are known for their approach of contextualising the Sikh tradition using Islamic vocabulary. In the Zindagînamâ the poet takes the notion one step further when he adopts the Sikh tradition into Islamic cosmology. A famous hadith of the Prophet says that:

By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah [panth] will be divided into 73 groups. [Amongst these] only one will enter Paradise.

For Bhai Nand Lal, the Gurmukh panth is the one and pious group that will be liberated and he encourages the remaining 72 groups of Islam to seek shelter at their feet ‘Without any doubt, we should consider this group who is beyond the cycle of birth and death, to be the shelter of the 72 groups [of Islam]'. In this way, the Gurmukh panth is absorbed into Islamic cosmology and turned upside down. Other, but more subtle references are made to the Quran. A famous Quran’ic verse says that Allah is closer to the believers than even their main artery. Bhai Nand Lal makes a subtle reference to this verse in his section on the praise of devotion. Approaching the Sufis, the poet writes “When the True Master is nearer to you than your main artery O ignorant person! Then why are you roaming around jungles and the wilderness? When someone who is familiar and well conversant with The Path becomes your Guide and Master, you will be able to achieve solitude within the company of noble people.”

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Although Bhai Nand Lal's works did not revolve around any political evolution.

That haddith might be made up besides I wonder how the number 72 is counted up to. And Bhai Nand Lal Goya ji was a devote gursikh who praised the guru and the guru was pleased with his work. I frankly think under sikh philosophy all 72 will end up in hell. Only a few pious muslim, a minority with piety will go to karam and dharam khand. The sufis have stopped the jungle business beside alot of jungles have been turned into cities now. The koran contradicts itself later on with that verse some where else to call panatheism an abomination http://www.islamhelpline.com/node/2373

Allah's attribute of Omnipresent

In the name of Allah, We praise Him, seek His help and ask for His forgiveness. Whoever Allah guides none can misguide, and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright. We bear witness that there is no one (no idol, no person, no grave, no prophet, no imam, no dai, nobody!) worthy of worship but Allah Alone, and we bear witness that Muhammad(saws) is His slave-servant and the seal of His Messengers.

There is absolutely no Quranic term or attribute of Allah Subhanah which states that Allah Subhanah is 'Omnipresent', or present everywhere in His Majestic Self!

The correct meaning or understanding of the term 'Omnipresent' when used for Allah Subhanah, would be that the All Seeing, All Knowing Lord is present everywhere through His Perfect and Absolute Knowledge; not in His Majestic Self.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 50 Surah Qaaf verse 16: It was We who created man and We Know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 58 Surah Mujadila verse 7: Seest thou not that Allah doth Know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three but He makes the fourth among them; nor between five but He makes the sixth; nor between fewer nor more but He is in their midst (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they be: in the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct on the Day of Judgment for Allah has full Knowledge of all things.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 6 Surah Anaam verse 59: With Him are the keys of the Unseen, the treasures that none Knows but He. He Knows whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His Knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered) but is (inscribed) in a Record Clear (to those who can read).

Thus in conclusion, it is indeed true that Allah Subhanah is 'Omnipresent' everywhere with his Perfect and Absolute Knowledge; but to believe that the Lord is Omnipresent everywhere in His Majestic Self would be incorrect belief.

Whatever written of Truth and benefit is only due to Allah's Assistance and Guidance, and whatever of error is of me. Allah Alone Knows Best and He is the Only Source of Strength.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Doaba Sher - From what I see yogi allah yaar khan has written a composition using a multy facet approach he has incorporated references to the ramaya, he has put in the khalsa meima from sarbloh granth (http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Khalsa_Mahima) and it's very possible he has placed in bulleh shahs works since it appears this was composed by 1914 (world war 1 era) "Hakim Allah Yaar Khan Jogi, was an unbiased Muslim poet/writer wrote two poems almost a century ago,". Where as Bulleh Shah was around 1757 much before his time.

Bas ek Hind mein tirth hai yatra ke liyae,

Katai Bap ne betey jahan khuda ke liyae

Bhatktey phirtey hain kion?

Haj karein yehan aa kar,

Yeh Kaba pass hai,

Dandak main phire Ram to Sita thi bagal main,

Woh fakhre jahan Hind ki mata thi bagal main,

Lachman (Laxman) sa biradar bhaye takhsine jigar tha,

...

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/693-poem-guru-gobind-singh-ji-yogi.html

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Yogi_Allah_Yaar_Khan

Here is what seems to be a paper published under a North American Punjabi association that studies works under it the respective writer has said :

"

Such were the times when Bulleh Shah emerged as a protagonist of communal amity in the Punjab. Living in Kasur with his Murshid in Lahore, he could not but be embroiled in the political changes taking place around him despite the fact that the Sufis tried as far as possible to steer clear of the contemporary happenings.

Bulleh Shah's was a major voice against injustice. He called Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Sikh Guru, who was beheaded by Aurangzeb, a Ghazi. He hailed Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru, as a protector of Hinduism:

I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow;

I talk about today.

Had Gobind Singh not been there,

They would all be under Islamic sway."

http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/bullahn/Untitled/untitled.html

Under the same website you can find digital collection of many punjabi poets works free to access including Bulleh Shah's works

http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/bullahn/

http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/bullah/

http://www.apnaorg.com/poetry/bulleh-g/

I know I gave you a historical reference in the past to inform you Gurbaksh Singh's name was Banda Bahadur under Sikh history from persian sources. It is widely understood anyone who take amrit khanda da pahul is automatically given the suffix Singh. Do you doubt Banda Bahadur took amrit khanda da pahul?

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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That haddith might be made up besides I wonder how the number 72 is counted up to. And Bhai Nand Lal Goya ji was a devote gursikh who praised the guru and the guru was pleased with his work. I frankly think under sikh philosophy all 72 will end up in hell. Only a few pious muslim, a minority with piety will go to karam and dharam khand. The sufis have stopped the jungle business beside alot of jungles have been turned into cities now. The koran contradicts itself later on with that verse some where else to call panatheism an abomination http://www.islamhelpline.com/node/2373

We believe in hell? Do we also believe in a dude who died, came back to life and always said he was the son of God? Do we also believe in virgins giving birth?

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yes i doubt BB ever took pahul. I am sure he never gave up his Vaishnav faith till his last breath.

Doaba Sher Vaishnav's are supposed to be vegetarian the Persian Sources do confirm he slaughtered animals. Banda Singh Bahadurs slaughtering of animals actually makes people think that perhaps Sikhi isn't a vegeterian faith and if people believe by taking amrit you can't eat meat you have another argument for him being hindu but not being on the path of vishnu bhakti.

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Jathedar Sahib, point is Bulleh Shah DID NOT write what you (and others) attributed to him

...

Allah Yaar Khan, seriously, how many people have heard of this name? comparing him with such a literary giants as Bulleh shah would be a folly.

Well I reckon Yogi Allah Yaar Khan did write it but it was written earlier by Bulleh Shah that apna site I gave you points to the source of the poem as well, as well as an incite into why he wrote it, what it means etc.

Allah Yaar Khan's name is known as a Sikh of Guru Nanaks time but this poet you are talking about happens to have a similar name he is from 1914 Yogi Allah Yaar Khan probably saw deteriorating relations among sikhs and muslims before partition or tried to convert sikhs and used that same poem.

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We believe in hell? Do we also believe in a dude who died, came back to life and always said he was the son of God? Do we also believe in virgins giving birth?

In a metaphorical sense we do, yes. Nerag/nerke.

Page 70, Line 16

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

रंगु न लगी पारब्रहम ता सरपर नरके जाइ ॥५॥

Rang na lagī pārbarahm ṯā sarpar narke jā▫e. ||5||

Even so, if they have not embraced love for the Supreme Lord God, then they shall surely go to hell. ||5||

Guru Arjan Dev

As for Jesus depends you can believe in him as a spiritual guy but the problem isn't his resurrection for us it's his exclusive claim which goes against our belief system. Which is this:

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6 (New International Version)

The bible itself states the following are the children of god:

New Living Translation

So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

John 3:10

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Romans 8:14

might aswell add this one in:

Ezekiel 25:17
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
The single coolest line from Pulp Fiction

Last one virgins giving birth sure why not, we believe in alot of miracles which are supernatural events occurring "A miracle is an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and consequently attributed to a supernatural, especially divine, agency"

Lets take for example the birth of Guru Hargobind Sahib it took Baba Buddha ji the great highly spirit sikh, the first sikh preist blessing the mother with a crushed onion before his birth so divine intervention http://www.sikhnet.com/stories/audio/birth-guru-hargobind

It might not be as impressive as resurrection Ram Rai 72 miracles

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/72_Miracles_By_Baba_Ram_Rai

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Would like to add this to compare how Jesus attributes god have still been upheld in the plagiarized tradition of muhammads

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6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6 (New International Version)

It's in the above Jesus has just called himself God in accordance to the islamic tradition it can't be true; allah is the way, allah is the truth and allah is the life.

Way:


Truth:

AL-HAQQ The Truth (6:62)(22:6)(23:116)(31:30)

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Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
John 11:25

AL-BÂ'ITH The Resurrector (22:7)page 35

OLD TESTAMENT (pre-jesus):
Who has done such mighty deeds, summoning each new generation from the beginning of time? It is I, the LORD, the First and the Last. I alone am he." Isaiah 41:4

NEW TESTAMENT (post-jesus)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Revelation 22:13

AL-AWWAL The First (57:3) AL-ÂKHIR The Last (57:3)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

Revelation 17:14

AL-MALIK The King (20:114)(23:116)(59:23)(62:1)(114:2)

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I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.John 10:9

AL-HÂDÎ The Guide (25:31)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

AN-NÛR The Light (24:35)

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Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Then who wrote this (one example)"

Gur sangat keenee khalsaa, manmukhee duhaylaa

Waho Waho Gobind Singh, aapay gur chayla"
Pope John Paul wrote this?

That's a trivial one since some say it was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji (1551 – 25 August 1636) and he was much before the time of Guru Gobind Singh (22 December 1666 – 7 October 1708). Bhai Gurdas Ji left the earth in 1636 and Guru Gobind Singh was born in 1666 plus he was called Guru Gobind Singh in 1669. So there is about 30-33 year gap between it's composition and Guru Gobind Singh. Hence it was either changed later or it was written by another Bhai Gurdas and the vaaran and not composed by the same bhai gurdas ji. Which then makes the whole thing about Guru Arjan Dev ji saying his vaaran were the key to gurbani difficult.

source [" They have been referred to as the "Key to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib" by Guru Arjan Dev, the fifth Sikh Guru. Bhai Gurdas was a first cousin of Mata Bhani, mother of Guru Arjan Dev." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varan_Bhai_Gurdas]

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=10073

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNLGMNLyNW4

There does seem to be some inconsitency on the AKJ youtube kirtan clip it says from bhai gurdas ji vaaran however on the sikhitothemax link it tells us that extract is from:

Bhai Gurdas Singh in Amrit Keertan on Pannaa 281

However it seems Bhai Gurdas Singh was around Guru Gobind Singhs time

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhai_Gurdas_Singh

Bhai Gurdas Singh is said to be a contemporary of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He is not to be confused with Bhai Gurdas Ji, who was the scribe of the Adi Granth under Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Bhai Gurdas Singh's work was added as a "supplement" to Bhai Gurdas Ji's 40 Vaars, and is known as the "41st Vaar." Bhai Gurdas Singh Ji's work contains the famous Shabad:

'ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗ੝ਰ ਚੇਲਾ' Vah Vah Gobind Singh Ape Gur Chela Wow! Wow! Gobind Singh, himself the Guru and the disciple.

P.S. I apologize point taken Sikhs do omit Guru rarely thanks for that reference.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Hinduism, christianism, islam, budhism or any other dharam...are different paths travelled by humans, and for that, first of all one has to be born in this world .... these are chains around our necks, which pull us even more towards the creation, rather than towards the Creatror.

In the name of these very religions, so much blood has been wasted, so much hatred, so many wars, so many unjustices ...

What is this all? Agyanta, ignorance.

Where are we heading? Insanity and failure.

And then too we say, we are very much religious minded.

We must bear in mind, if the Lord is one, there has to be only one path leading to Him... it can not be different, for different pepole of different communities, religions, castes, colours....this is all created by the selfish and ignorant man.

if the Sun(Lord) has no caste or class, what caste is going to have a "mamulee" simple ray(soul).

If the Sea(Lord) has no caste or class, what caste is going to have a "mamulee" simple drop of it(soul)

The path leading us to Him has to be same in nature, as our objective, Wahiguru; means subtle, not gross or physical.

And this path is univerasl to all beings, whether we are hindus, sikhs, christians or muslims so to say ... because this path is established by He Himself.

This path is safe and sure to reach our destination, if only travelled on it.

That is why the bani says: Har mandir eheu sareer hae, gyan ratan pargat hoe.

The Bani says, this our human body is the real temple, where He can be worshipped and found. Because, the objective of religion, is to unite us with our origin, by transforming us in being good to all, and humble with all, but not to make us viloent fanatics, thisrty of the blood of others, for not thinking or beleiving like us.

Why should we try to force or impose on others?

Does not the Bani say:

paavai th so jan dhaehi, jis no, hor kiaa karehi vaechaariaa
He alone receives it, unto whom You give it; what can the other poor wretched beings do? So then, who are we to do all the nonsense we do? This is His creation, He knows best how to handle it, or is that He has give us the rights to interfere with his creation and laws, or, He has forgotten what He has to do? Let us think and take care about ourselves...the rest will be taken care by itself.

Then He says:

eik bharam bhoolae firehi dheh dhis eik naam laag savaariaa
Some are deluded by doubt, wandering in the ten directions; some are adorned with attachment to the Naam.

But on the other side, if we try to find Him outside, then of course there are many paths, and all of them lead us to the same place: nowhere.

The religion of the Guru Sahibans, Bhagats, Sant Janas, Gurmukhs, Sadhs... is only one. And that is Gurmat or Nam mat.

Be that Gurmukh of any time or any place, but it will be always the same. And this Gurmat is not designed, or made for any particular community or land, it is universal, because it deals with the higher realities as soul or Wahiguru...not the perishable garments or bodies.

Sree Guru Amar Das tells us in Raag Ramkalee:

eaes no hor thhaao naahee sabadh laag savaareeaa
There is no place of rest, other than the Name; attached to the Shabad, we are embellished with beauty.

So whether Guru used the terms hum hindu, reffering to it, in a geographically perspective or not, we for sure know, that is not so important, because their only concern is of reuniting the soul with its creator, through the power of Nam, because in those higher realms, and morover in Sach Khand, there is no such things as hindus, muslims, sikhs, isaees or budhists...

There alone, Wahiguru exists. The Bani says: Sachkhand baseh, Nirankar.

Whosoever "wadhbhagee jeeva" without any distinction, arrives there, becomes one wih Him. Such is His greatness, His vadiayee...

Edited by harsharan000
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So whether Guru used the terms hum hindu, reffering to it, in a geographically perspective or not, we for sure know, that is not so important, because their only concern is of reuniting the soul with its creator, through the power of Nam, because in those higher realms, and morover in Sach Khand, there is no such things as hindus, muslims, sikhs, isaees or budhists...

According to this guy you have to be a muslim or else you will go to hell and burn. Is he wrong? or are we right? and if we are right he is wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxaNToatmBI

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Dear Veer Jathedar Sahib,

of course he is totally wrong? The question you ask is even out of place, though you may have the right to do so. But not because of anything...but because what he says, does not telly with the teachings of our Guru Sahibans, or any other Gurmukh.

True Gurmukhs do not say, you have to leave your dharam or religion, neither do you have to change your lifestyle, but, keeping present in mind that Wahiguru has kept each one of us in particular palce, for a particular purpose, in the end it is all our karmas,

and being born in any particular place, or time, just love Wahiguru.

As said above in the post, Wahiguru, Har, Lord, God ... is a level of consciousness, which can be reached not just by wishing or desiring, but by climbing the ladder(jugtee) of Nam Simran.

If ever any doubt, just read the Bani of our Guru Sahibans and the different Bhagats contained in the Guru Granth Sahib, you will see by yourself, that all of them declare one same truth, Wahiguru and Nam Simran.

The real dharam, makes one more humans in nature, but not fanatics. It makes you live in the Bhana, but not commit atrocities, neither terrorist attacks in the name of god, neither try to invade other countries and impose your religion...

I think the history is clear enough since the beginning till now a days.

There is no comparison, between our Guru Sahibans ... and this fellow, who is just a talkative parrot, without himself understanding what he is saying, but poisoning many minds with his filth.

I am sorry for going so harsh, but I can not tolerate ignorance, when more over our Guru Sahibans, have given us the tools in their bani, to see what is truth and what not.

Edited by harsharan000
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