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Caste Hierarchy Explained


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- The Bhagats and The Guru Ji's accepted their roles in the caste system and society.

Are you an imbecile?

- The main aim of the Guru ji's was not social betterment it was something else.

Hordes of Sikhs joined the Sikh ranks for this very purpose. Are you denying this; or implying that the Gurus were unaware of this?

The negation of caste is not social engineering. Revolution of society is not the primary aim of Sikhi; it may, or may not come about as a side effect

That just boils down to semantics. The Sikh societal nucleus of Kartarpur; where a new way of living was practiced. The society fostered by dasmesh pita around Paonta and Anandpur - clearly resented by the local hill rajahs - all clearly demonstrate a new societal vision as actively sought by the Gurus through conscious policy and fostering - not a side effect.

The Sikh Gurus have NEVER conformed to varna. Varna is nothing to do with dharam; it's just a relic of Indian social organisation from a particular period in time - nothing more nothing less.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Varna is nothing to do with dharam

This is a confused statement. A person's Dharma is related to his or her Varna, so a Brahmin who gains knowledge is acting in accordance with his Dharam. You seem to be using the word Dharam to mean intrinsic religion, which does relate to outer societal duties. Is there any historical precedence for using the word in this sense or did you just decide to use it in this way?

And do not call me an imbecile again otherwise we can terminate this exchange of views.

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This is a confused statement. A person's Dharma is related to his or her Varna, so a Brahmin who gains knowledge is acting in accordance with his Dharam. You seem to be using the word Dharam to mean intrinsic religion, which does relate to outer societal duties. Is there any historical precedence for using the word in this sense or did you just decide to use it in this way?

And dharam hasn't been translated as righteousness? Where does some fixed occupational role fit into that schema? And I suppose you believe 'dharam yudh' to be some war waged to preserve the varna system and that that was what Guru Gobind Singh ji was engaged in?

And do not call me an imbecile again otherwise we can terminate this exchange of views.

If I gave any value to what you generally come out with, that threat might have had some force, but I do think a lot of what you say is plain ridiculous. Terminate if you so feel inclined.

In the end the societal system in India prevalent during the life times of the Gurus was a man made affair designed to preserve privilege whilst keeping certain people permanently suppressed which was already being rejected by Bhagats and our Gurus and had taken a hammering by Islamic invasions. Are you suggesting that Sikhs should transport that framework outside of India?

Anyway, where do nonIndic Sikh converts fit in to the varna system? Have you not given that thought?

And you seem to selectively choose what you respond to from my comments.

Sikhi was originally a mystical fraternity, not an attempt to create beneficial social conditions for Humankind.

Not only was it originally a mystical fraternity; it did attempt to and achieved better social conditions for its adherents and their immediate neighbors. This was one of the aims of establishing communities like that in Kartarpur and Anandpur.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Dally

Unfortunately you have put large barriers to your own learning process, probably unknowingly, by putting those down who try debate teh point with you. You act with such hostility that the person trying to explain cannot get anything across. And then after hammering them with your insults, you think you have won the argument. This rewards your hostile behaviour and then you repeat it the next time you encounter someone else who disagrees.

You are in a vicious cycle my friend. Step out of it already, or you are going to turn many people away from you and turn away knowledge itself. This is not the way of a scholar. Be detached from all views. There is wisdom everywhere, gotta be an ant to feed on it. Get what I am saying?

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You seem more interested in preserving some archaic, unjust Hindoo societal system than trying to build a better society for Sikhs...don't need any brothers like that myself. With brothers like that who needs....<you know the rest>

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Lol no dude. You are so opposed to some idea in your head, and you have so much energy going against it that you don't see what the people who you are communicating with saying. You are essentially fighting with yourself. :D

Relax. Do some meditations. Take a break from the forums. Focus on your school stuff. Do some translations in the meanwhile. Take your mind off the issue and let it rest.

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Nah, I'm crystal clear.

Some of you overly pampered cats have to wait till you see Sikh society under attack to realise how destructive internalised weakness such as that which stems from caste and similar bull is.

Plus many of the arguments I'm hearing are pathetic. Like Baba Nanak never encountered many societies in the Islamic world that functioned totally independently from Indic varna. Like the system is anything other than a snapshot of some historical period where someone tried to preserve the existing status quo; like it doesn't leave a negative legacy on Sikh society; like caste in Sikh society is anything other than a manifestation of egos; like it has any purpose and reverence in the 21st century; like we have to somehow fit in converts into our caste framework.

I'm cool. Just because I take a no-compromise stance towards the jaat-paat lovers, don't mean I've lost it or anything. Straight talk on this subject is long overdue; and people's threats to leave because they encounter some fiery,provocative language is pretty lame. Pajamas.

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Trust me, no one is looking at your replies thinking "oh! he makes excellent points using provocative language." Lol. You just sound like you've completely lost it. Like beyond repair lol.

If you wana share your view, while getting at the knowledge, the truth and the understanding of different viewpoints then leave "provocative language" at home, set aside your fire and anger, put away your stupid defensiveness and come forth with an open mind. Disagree as much as you like but stick to the point and clarify your position but not without getting some clarity about the what the other person is talking about first.

Anyone can sit there and argue, insult the other and put them down, and ramble on and on. But it takes a scholar to rise above such petty BS, all that clutter, to try and get to the truth. It takes a clear mind and *spaciousness* (ref: Tolle) to hold an opposing idea in the mind, to give it some thought, to undercut it and to then present those counter arguments devoid of clutter. Counter arguments that are crisp, clear, focused, where the energy of the person behind them is that of one seeking truth. Be detached from all of the mind-made stances, and discuss from a place that is deeper than the petty stances.

Its now time to learn to discuss things like a gurmukh. Take a break and prepare yourself for it.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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I used to think education was a cure to backwardness but certain 'brothers' here have proven that assertion to be erroneous..

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I see none of the cry babies out there has the balls to tackle this:

In sum, Indic caste is just some legacy of people trying to socially engineer society in a primitive time, that has long outlived its purpose/usefulness (if it ever had one). It has no sanction or place amongst Sikhs and was clearly designed to keep privileges amongst an elite whilst disabling any upward social mobility for those at the bottom.

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