Shabad Kirtan Recitation based on raags only???

[Ideal Singh]

SSA Ji,

I have been listening to Bhai Harjinder Singh Ji (Sri Nagar Walae) for quite sometime. He does not recite Gurbani on music based on Raags. Does this makes his singing the praise of Waheguru any lesser than those Ragis who sing on tunes based on raags like Bhai Nirmal Singh Ji.

This question struck me when I was going through the debate going on AKJers. Where in one of the questions put forward by NARSINGA stated that AKjers recite Gurbani in simple tunes which is contrary to Gurmat.

Frankly speaking , I find the Gurbani recitation by both of the raagis very enchanting and near to my heart. So my question is Should we only listen to the Gurbani being recited in tunes based on Rags only ?

[Narsingha]

A simple question, which Bhai Balbir Singh Nihang once asked some Sikhs:

"Why would you want to ignore Guruji's Hukam just to please yourself? Is this not manmat?"

...he was referring to the Hukam being the RAAG mentioned by Guru Maharaj that is placed before most Shabads within Adi Guru Durbar.

Why would Guru maharaj go to such great lengths to arrange Adi Guru Durbar in Raags, and then place the Raag BEFORE the Shabad? Guru Maharaj in some cases even gives more importance to the RAAG by placing it above the Shabad which may contain His OWN name, ie, Nanak.

Would you rather not do something, than end up doing something against Gurmat?

The reason AKJ do not accept or understand the relevance of Raagmala or dont bother paying attention to the Raag is because, bottom line, they HAVE no Raag Vidiya and NO knowledge of Gurmat Sangeet or traditional musical instruments. If they did, then we would not see them using the Vaja (an Italian instrument, not Sikh), or sheney, and their entire kirtan would be sung in Raag.

Its really that simple...the facts, practices and the AKJ multimedia databse speak for themselves

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

On the issue of Raag kirtan in the samparday...

The Sewapanthis performed kirtan in shudh raag. In fact Sant Shaam Singh, who did 72 years unpaid seva of raag kirtan twice a day at Darbar Sahib on the sarunda, wrote a text on Raag Kirtan. I was hoping to find it at the Swapanthi dera under his name in Amritsar, but was informed by THE expert on Sewapanthis, Dr. Gurmukh Singh, that it has since been stolen. It was part of a large granth including other important Sewapanthi writings. He himself then asked Mahant Tirath Singh ji who said it has gone and it was the only copy to his knowledge. This is very disappointing indeed, as one can only assume it would contain authorative itihas on gurmat sangeet.

I have spoken also to a Nirmala authority who stated that the Nirmalae formed their own form of kirtan (I didn't ask whether it was in raag or not), that included Gurbani, katha and their own couplets.

I also read that Akhara Brahm Boota (or possibly Sangalwara, both being the epicentres of 19th Udasin activity before the formation of the Bada and Choti Panchayti Akharas in Haridwar) had upto a hundred students at one point, many of whom were learning kirtan (and thus I assume, gurmat sangeet)

[Mugermach Singh]

After listening to raags, its easier to understand the shabad becasue the pauses are the correct place. I dont seem to find kirtan done by harjinder singh, anoop singh, akj etc that good. People like the NaamDharis and a Bhai Balbir Singh, Bhai Auvtar singh do good raag kirtan. You need to understand a bit about raags before you can appreciate them.

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

I've just chanced upon visiting a Sewapanthi Tikana in the last hour and seen an image of a previous Sewapanthi mahant (not included in Sant Lal Chand's updated 'Sant Rattan Mala' whih has images of most key Sewapanthis up to the modern day), called Mahant Shankar Das ji, who is sat posed with a very large old-style dilruba. The photo seems to be from the beginning of the last century. Very beautiful.

In response to Mugermanch's post, I would also suggest that to enrich understanding of kirtan, we should listen to Dhrupad. This style preceeded khyaal (the style in virtually all modern indian raag sangeet) and is deeply spiritual and contemplative by nature. It is slow moving and the aim is to induce meditative religious experience. The sloks sung are religious, often from the bhavagad gita. There are three existent paramparas, the Dagar gharana (most famous), Mishra gharana and the Mallick gharana of Patna.

This style was prevelant at the time of the early Gurus. And this seems consistent with writing on gurmat sangeet. For example, even G. S. Mansukhani writes that kirtan should not contain extended bol-taans or any other vocal gymnastics and should neither be overly elated or depressive. This implies dhrupad is more suited. I've seen that Bhai Avtar Singh ji has sung kirtan in dhrupad on his 'Kirtan Parampara' series.

There is a beautiful story from the life of one of the elder Dagar brothers of last century, that he attended a festival celibrating the birthday of the key historical exponent of dhrupad. The people who had attended this event in the birthplace of this singer had come from the local factory. At the event were many established singers who tried their best and failed to impress the crowd who were more interested in filmi songs and qawwali. When the elder Dagar brother took the stage the crowd implored him to sing a qawwal, he had a bit bantar with them and asked them if they knew whose anniversary this was, if they knew why he was famous, and that he would sing to them the style that made him important. The crowd listened to his alaap (non-rhythmical setting of the raag) in complete silence for three hours! When he paused some of the crowd implored him to continue. When he finished he asked them what they thought. They said that they had never heard this before, didn't understand it but felt something very strong 'like the sound of the mandir's bells ringing'!!

So yes, understand Raags, but I would personally say that it is more important to listen to and understand dhrupad recordings.

[Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa]

Nihang, how would you do keertan of a pauree of japji sahib or bhagat kabir jees saloks?

Most raagis today do not do correct raags. Even though they may be playing classical style, raags of guru sahibs day are NOT possible on a vaja. Only on stringed intruments from gurus darbar will you actually get the real thing.

[Ideal Singh]

Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa :

Only on stringed intruments from gurus darbar will you actually get the real thing.

:shock: Even all Hazoori Raagis use Vaja and you say this ain't the real thing. Then what is the real thing ? You mean to claim that everybody is wrong and what you utter is Truth.

[Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa]

No, not at all.

Ask anyone who knows about true raag keertan and they will tell you the same thing. It doesn't make it wrong, but its not the same raag without the original instruments as vaja is fundamentally incapable of producing the same notes and the notes that are in between which the vaja doesnt even have.

If you choose not to beleive me, then don't. But this is what is taught by those that teach raags and know the history of it.

[Guest]

I came across this picture of Raagis of 1902 you might want to have a look at them.

http://www.sikhs.org/memories/photo_27.html

[Ideal Singh]

Nice information !!

I think these Raagis are Bhatts !!

One of the instruments is Rabab or Sarangi

What are the rest of the Instruments??

[Ideal Singh]

Oops !! these are not Bhatts... these are Tadis !! Am I right ? 8)

[tSingh]

Yes, they're dhadis

If you wish to see the types of intruments used in raag kirtan before the vaaja, see the old photo in any copy of Mahan Kosh by Kahn Singh Nabha. It has taus, dilruba, rabaab, sitar, sarangi, sarunda, etc.

[Ideal Singh]

Can anybody enlighten the sangat as to when was the VAJA, the italian instrument introduced for reciting Gurbani?

[Ideal Singh]

Who were the rababies? Where have all of them gone ? I dont see any of them. Bhai Mardana was a Muslim maraasi. So are Rababies Muslim only.

[Ideal Singh]

My question still stands !!!

[drawrof]

dharam singh zakhmi and jatha were rababi muslims who became amritdhari sikhs, interesting how they quote from alot of farsi texts and use baba farid's bani as parmaans.

bhai taba was also an incredible rababi from what I know, they characteristically sang at the top of their lungs, where as the singhs who sang dhrupadh (and possibly the rababi's too) would sing more akin to bhai avtaar singh's style.

I am definitely pro-rag

[Guest]

I found these links useful for this thread.

http://www.geocities.com/pritpal_bindra/s-023.html

http://in.news.yahoo.com/030719/139/266m8.html

[Deep Singh]

Truth Singh jee......

thanks for the articles...

yeah....we should work to promote correct Raagi keertan!

and install traditional instruments into the Sikh panth....

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Bhai Mardana played a seni rabab. This has a different shape, due to the length of the strings has a deeper pitch and was played with the head over the performer's shoulder.

This deeper pitch made the seni rabab more suited as an instrument to perform dhrupad (much akin to the veena, which has deep pitch and was then used to perform dhrupad - one of the dagar brothers has produced dhrupad on veena). This points to dhrupad as the form in which kirtan was originally performed at the time of the Gurus.

The rabaab we see nowadays are kabuli rabaabs (from afghanistan). These were traditionally played in a more rhythmical manner.

[malwadoabamajha]

The Harmonium - Friend or Foe?

The harmonium was an egg laid in the nest of sangeet by the passing cuckoo bird of Western colonization. Easy to learn, it requires less time to master than a string instrument. Thus, one by one, it thrust out the other instruments from the sacred nest, occupying the place of honour as well as severely reducing the tonal beauty and instrumental subtlety of traditional sangeet.

Bhagat kabir ji -

"When the strings are broken,

the rabab can't play.

Man has spoiled his own affairs."

(Rag Asa, p. 478)

Bhai Gurdas ji

"Ragas are played upon the rabab, but time and again

Its tuning pegs must be adjusted."

Bhai Gurdas on Sikhism

The Ganga at Banares is for the Hindus

Muslims go to the Kaba at Mecca;

But in every house of Baba all are singing

Playing the cymbals, mrdang and rabab.

Guru Arjan Dev: The Goal of KirtanYour humble servant dances and sings

Your Glorious Praises.

He plays the rabab, pakhawaj, kartals and bells,

and the unstruck sound current of the Shabad resounds.

Guru Arjan Dev: The EpilogueHow to dance without the music?

How to sing without a voice?

How to play rabab without the strings?

Make your hands the kartals, your eyes the pakhawaj,

and your forehead the rabab to play upon.

Let the sweet flute resound in your ears,

and with your tongue, vibrate this song.

Move your mind like the rhythmic hand-motions;

do the dance, and shake your ankle bracelets.

This is the rhythmic dance of the Lord.

The Merciful Audience, the Lord, sees all

your make-up and decorations. Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Ramkali (p. 884) has referred to inner states of consciousness and their musical and mystical character: This in the inner dance of the soul experiencing the pulse and life-current of Divinity.

[Guest]

Nice article found on sikhreview. Have a look.

http://www.sikhreview.org/may2002/music.htm

[CRITICAL singh]

Gustaki mauf but after reading the whole discussion I think we are discussing superfluous I’ll take a example if a person is thirsty & he comes to me, now instead of giving him water I tell him to sing “WATER†in Sohi Raag or sing “WATER†between 6 AM - 9AM: in Bhairaagi, Devgandhari Raag , or sing “WATER†with DADRA Taal will any of these combinations will help to quench his thirst “NO†Veer jee Guru Jee says (raag naadh subadh sohunae jaa laagai sehaj dhiaan The melody and music, and the Word of the Shabad are beautiful, Only when one focuses on the celestial Lord.raag naadh shodd har saeveeai thaa dhurugeh paaeeai maan So leave behind the (RAAGS) melody and music, and serve the Lord; then, you shall obtain honor in the Court of the Lord. naanuk gurumukh brehum beechaareeai chookai man abhimaan O Nanak, as Gurmukh, contemplate God, and rid your mind of egotistical pride. ||2|| p-849) Guru jee himself is not supporting RAAGS. It’s a different concept behind why SGGS is in RAAGS, not all SGGS is in RAAGS there are lot of banis without RAAGS what about them ex: Jap Sahib(also known as Japjee Sahib).

[Ideal Singh]

Gustaki mauf but after reading the whole discussion I think we are discussing superfluous I’ll take a example if a person is thirsty & he comes to me, now instead of giving him water I tell him to sing “WATER†in Sohi Raag or sing “WATER†between 6 AM - 9AM: in Bhairaagi, Devgandhari Raag , or sing “WATER†with DADRA Taal will any of these combinations will help to quench his thirst “NO†Veer jee Guru Jee says (raag naadh subadh sohunae jaa laagai sehaj dhiaan The melody and music, and the Word of the Shabad are beautiful, Only when one focuses on the celestial Lord.raag naadh shodd har saeveeai thaa dhurugeh paaeeai maan So leave behind the (RAAGS) melody and music, and serve the Lord; then, you shall obtain honor in the Court of the Lord. naanuk gurumukh brehum beechaareeai chookai man abhimaan O Nanak, as Gurmukh, contemplate God, and rid your mind of egotistical pride. ||2|| p-849) Guru jee himself is not supporting RAAGS. It’s a different concept behind why SGGS is in RAAGS, not all SGGS is in RAAGS there are lot of banis without RAAGS what about them ex: Jap Sahib(also known as Japjee Sahib).

You are trying to suggest that itz not abosolutely important as to whether we should listen to Gurbani in RAAGS. Now thatz somewhat inconsistant with the whole discussion.

Anybody has to say about this claim... !!!

[sukhsingh]

i wonder wat akj ppl say to this...

i wanna see some respones from them

[Guest]

Critical Singh ji,

Please, have a look on full page and you will get the message of Guru Granth Sahib.

Page 849

VAAR OF BILAAVAL, FOURTH MEHL:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

SHALOK, FOURTH MEHL: I sing of the sublime Lord, the Lord God, in the melody of Raag Bilaaval. Hearing the Guru's Teachings, I obey them; this is the pre-ordained destiny written upon my forehead. All day and night, I chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har, Har; within my heart, I am lovingly attuned to Him. My body and mind are totally rejuvenated, and the garden of my mind has blossomed forth in lush abundance. The darkness of ignorance has been dispelled, with the light of the lamp of the Guru's wisdom. Servant Nanak lives by beholding the Lord. Let me behold Your face, for a moment, even an instant! || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Be happy and sing in Bilaaval, when the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is in your mouth. The melody and music, and the Word of the Shabad are beautiful, when one focuses his meditation on the celestial Lord. So leave behind the melody and music, and serve the Lord; then, you shall obtain honor in the Court of the Lord. O Nanak, as Gurmukh, contemplate God, and rid your mind of egotistical pride. || 2 || PAUREE: O Lord God, You Yourself are inaccessible; You formed everything. You Yourself are totally permeating and pervading the entire universe. You Yourself are absorbed in the state of deep meditation; You Yourself sing Your Glorious Praises. Meditate on the Lord, O devotees, day and night; He shall deliver you in the end. Those who serve the Lord, find peace; they are absorbed in the Name of the Lord. || 1 || SHALOK, THIRD MEHL: In the love of duality, the happiness of Bilaaval does not come; the self-willed manmukh finds no place of rest. Through hypocrisy, devotional worship does not come, and the Supreme Lord God is not found. By stubborn-mindedly performing religious rituals, no one obtains the approval of the Lord. O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands himself, and eradicates self-conceit from within. He Himself is the Supreme Lord God; the Supreme Lord God comes to dwell in his mind. Birth and death are erased, and his light blends with the Light. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Be happy in Bilaaval, O my beloveds, and embrace love for the One Lord. The pains of birth and death shall be eradicated, and you shall remain absorbed in the True Lord. You shall be blissful forever in Bilaaval, if you walk in harmony with the Will of the True Guru. Sitting in the Saints' Congregation, sing with love the Glorious Praises of the Lord forever. O Nanak, beautiful are those humble beings, who, as Gurmukh, are united in the Lord's Union. || 2 || PAUREE: The Lord Himself is within all beings. The Lord is the friend of His devotees. Everyone is under the Lord's control; in the home of the devotees there is bliss. The Lord is the friend and companion of His devotees; all His humble servants stretch out and sleep in peace. The Lord is the Lord and Master of all; O humble devotee, remember Him. No one can equal You, Lord.

Please, check on Gurmukhi translation because english sometimes is not as clear as gurmukhi one.

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/0849.html