The British Government Helped 'free' The Harimandir In 1984?

[Genie Singh]

Not equating myself to him but in my experience the only time anyone can make that statement is when they are highly drunk.

Maybe he witnessed the whole 1947 riots and over the years came to the conclusion that no god would have allowed something as horrific as that to happen hence he came down to the firm conviction that there is no god for him.

[Genie Singh]

As usual, another load of BS from phoney Jonny.

Sikhs discriminated.. which way they were discriminated? Sikhs were even given reservation on the basis of the caste like Hindus. Sikhs were and are about 15-20% of the Armed forces (population roughly 2%) - was that a discrimination? Sikhs carried out morchas for their sectarian demands inc Punjabi suba. All of their demands were accepted by Nehru and then Indira Gandhi.

Writers such as Katy Sian [unsettling Sikh and Muslim Conflict by Katy P. Sian] exploring the post colonial condition of Sikhs feels that Sikhs had an elevated status in India during british raj then after the Independence of India that status did not remain. Perhaps in that framework of thinking going from an elevated status to an average one can be perceived as marginalisation or discrimination. Although other writers express after the Independence India is doing much better and Indian's are all together much more elevated then they were. Perhaps people have romanticised the past to be something it wasn't and desire a past which didn't really exist. Abit like how Muhammdens seek to re-create the Ottoman empire and view it to be superior if not equal to any modern western country in all of it's achievement's aswell as having a higher sense of morality when it comes to the domains of censorship such as adult material or hateful material such as satire. [i'm sorry I can't find the page reference for further reading yet for Dr Katy Sian's work]

Edited January 21, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

Q. Yet being a Sikh is very important to you.

A. Very important. A sense of belonging, and that's why I gave up the Padma Bhushan after Operation Bluestar. I was the only Indian to criticise Bhindranwale. I called him a homicidal maniac when I was in The Hindustan Times. And he threatened to finish us all. And then I had all this security for 15 years. They've all gone now. Nobody wants to kill me anymore.- Khuswant Singh

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/i-was-the-only-indian-to-criticise-bhindranwale-khushwant-singh/1/255997.html

[chatanga1]

I also think people give too much weight of respect to bhindranwale, some put him equal to the gurus himself and forget his role as just a sikh.

No-one puts Bhindranwale equal to the Guru's, only arseholes say that, and they are anti-bhindranwale to begin with. They just use it as a term to make people think he was bad.

jatherdara, why do you think that bhindranwala is, and is not, worthy of any kind of respect?

Jonny I'm anti Sant I don't believe in Saints nor do I believe is the sant concept to be a part of puratan sikhi

They were there, but not with the label of Sant, the title "Bhai" or "Guru" was more in vogue then. And no it wasn't Guru as in successor to 10th Guru, but as a teacher, and this title is still in use but only in certain circles. Personally I have a vidiya Guru and a sangeet Guru.

And if you look at the panth today, like many jathas, they had done good and bad for the panth. you can't deny that the Sants have helped a lot of people onto gurmat marg.

[Genie Singh]

No-one puts Bhindranwale equal to the Guru's, only arseholes say that, and they are anti-bhindranwale to begin with. They just use it as a term to make people think he was bad.

jatherdara, why do you think that bhindranwala is, and is not, worthy of any kind of respect?

Sants who put themselves next to guru aren't but as far as i'm aware of bhindranwale he wasn't interested in the glamour of being a god man but more interested in the anandpur resolution, being against the nirankaris and making sikh youth administer amrit and be far from western culture aswell as arming the youth. Some might not say Bhindranwale is a guru but treat him with the same reverence, to insult him for people is to insult their own father, their own religion, their own prophet.

Bhindranwale as the prophet of the taksal has brought a mean trend of Sikhs wishing fatwas upon other Sikhs and others. This fatwa or death bounties on others is outside of the realms of gurmat, regardless of if bhindranwale preached it or not. I think people should return to the basics of the 10 gurus, guru granth sahib, sakhis, dasam granth, janamsakhis, rehat, guru panth. And ignore the damage bhindranwale's name brings regardless of if it is him, his followers or the government of india or rss or shiv senna/bajrang dal/right-wing hindu groups/aryan samaj or any other 'enemy of the panth'.

They were there, but not with the label of Sant, the title "Bhai" or "Guru" was more in vogue then. And no it wasn't Guru as in successor to 10th Guru, but as a teacher, and this title is still in use but only in certain circles. Personally I have a vidiya Guru and a sangeet Guru.

It's very well to have an ustad of sangeet or vidya but then to put other Gurus before the Guru is sacrilegious. I accept we had people with the title Bhai, we always have just like the greatest of hazoori raagis who are great masters of raag call themselves raag, some memorised much of bani and know more sakhis of guru then these charalaton god men who hunger for robbing the honour of sikhs and taking the money of sikhs. These great hazoori raagis who can be called legitmate professors around academic circles for their musical sangeet level of knowledge even in grand age have the humility to call themselves das (slave) and bhai. Then with that how can we call all these thieves and cunning men who are younger then us 'Babas'. The term Baba was used for old age, some south asians still call their fathers and grandfathers Baba or Babaji. Why should we call men who have allegations of rape around them Babas?

And if you look at the panth today, like many jathas, they had done good and bad for the panth. you can't deny that the Sants have helped a lot of people onto gurmat marg.

All the jatha-bandis aren't necessarily a bad thing they create almost a market level of competition each one competing for followers, if their followers deminish so does the cash flow of donations, plus man power and labour invested in running that firqa/sect. The competition can allow the quality of the parcharaks to thrive under the spirit of capitalism, if a better jatha comes they will loose all of their customers and gurdwara bookings. Maybe even lose the chance to get their visa stamps in so that their children can go open the hair dressers, meat shops, bars, dj, or builder business the envisioned in their immigration.

Edited January 21, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

No place for dissent or counter-argument in today's SGPC brand Sikhi. accept Tat Khalsa, neo-Sikh agenda or face the wrath

SGPC rehat is easily available and isn't mixed into the realm of Sant-Samaj or the congregation of the saints. This whole saint culture is quite recent from the late 1800s and a whole new take on gurbani, we can thank Nand Singh for it all being the first modern contemporary saint who pierced the Sikh faith. Turning a protestant like tradition back into it's catholic origin of candles and polytheistic intermediation- abit like taking Sikhi back into the period of hindu sadhus where you serve the yogi for blessing (bipran ki reet).

We go from 1 god all the way to nand singh being another god or a prophet with the rest added in. Even catholics are waking up to the idea of saint hood being a redudnat notion over complicating dogma to a repulsive point, making life all the harder to live. If you don't remember the right saint in catholicism you won't get your blessing. To make mention of how Bhindranwale's status doesn't entirely fit into puratan (ancient) Sikh can get you a whole series of fatwas (we have but the revivalism of wahabism through the creation of pakistan and zia-ul-haq to thank for all of that fanaticism). The ideological hamper came about due to interference of Sikhs in the matter of the creation of Bangladesh.

To me Bhindranwale was a human being, living breathing, who did some good, did some bad, made some nice ideas, but made a whole series of mistakes such as opposing the use of English among Sikhs, opposing the wearing of English clothes (not a major problem as compared to being against English), wasn't flexible enough to make some room to accommodate Hindi when the Gurus accommodated even more Languages (almost taking a page out of Muhammden history to oppose other languages and to impose Arabic).

Edited January 22, 2014 by N30 S!NGH

[Jonny101]

No place for dissent or counter-argument in today's SGPC brand Sikhi. accept Tat Khalsa, neo-Sikh agenda or face the wrath

Admins, please take action against this person. He is not even a Sikh, yet why is he allowed to use terms like "neo Sikh" or "Khaliban". This should not be tolerated. I could also use such demeaning terms for the Hindus but I will refrain from doing so as I know not all Hindus are like this.

Edited January 22, 2014 by N30 S!NGH

[Guest]

Thanks for bringing this post to our attention, sher is now put on quality control to ensure he comply with our rules and does not hurt sentiments of sikh nation and sikh sangat sentiments.

[Singh123456777]

Thanks for bringing this post to our intention, sher is now put on quality control to ensure he comply with our rules and does not hurt sentiments of sikh nation and sikh sentiments.

Can you also put the fool ekomakar guy on qc?Or you could ban the guy.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Admins, please take action against this person. He is not even a Sikh, yet why is he allowed to use terms like "neo Sikh" or "Khaliban". This should not be tolerated. I could also use such demeaning terms for the Hindus but I will refrain from doing so as I know not all Hindus are like this.

Hear Hear.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Amarjeet Singh_1737

[Singh123456777]

Thanks for bringing this post to our attention, sher is now put on quality control to ensure he comply with our rules and does not hurt sentiments of sikh nation and sikh sangat sentiments.

He isn't on quality control.

[Guest]

Both sher and omkar are on quality control, they are in the mod que which means mods have to approve their message before it shows up on the forum.

[chatanga1]

No place for dissent or counter-argument in today's SGPC brand Sikhi. accept Tat Khalsa, neo-Sikh agenda or face the wrath Admin Cut

Sants who put themselves next to guru aren't but as far as i'm aware of bhindranwale he wasn't interested in the glamour of being a god man but more interested in the anandpur resolution, being against the nirankaris and making sikh youth administer amrit and be far from western culture aswell as arming the youth. Some might not say Bhindranwale is a guru but treat him with the same reverence, to insult him for people is to insult their own father, their own religion, their own prophet.

Ok so some people hate someone they respect being mocked, but what is wrong with wanting Anandpur Sahib resolution, being against the nirankaris or encouraging youths to take amrit?

Bhindranwale as the prophet of the taksal has brought a mean trend of Sikhs wishing fatwas upon other Sikhs and others. This fatwa or death bounties on others is outside of the realms of gurmat, regardless of if bhindranwale preached it or not. I think people should return to the basics of the 10 gurus, guru granth sahib, sakhis, dasam granth, janamsakhis, rehat, guru panth. And ignore the damage bhindranwale's name brings regardless of if it is him, his followers or the government of india or rss or shiv senna/bajrang dal/right-wing hindu groups/aryan samaj or any other 'enemy of the panth'.

Do you think that bhindranwala brought more damage to the panth than good?

[chatanga1]

As far as I am aware the Nirankari were an offshoot of the Sikh religion who had their own dehdhari guru (not that different to what sant/saints claim divinity in themselves).

Could you please tell us more about the kilings that the Nirankaris aparently did? It appears Nirankari's seem to preach vegetarianism and preach against killing animals, I wonder what blood lust they must have had?

Your recent posts are making me think that you have some agenda here. The original Nirankari movement has nothing to do with the "Sant-Nirankari Mandal" which is a wholly separate entity.

The impression I get from Khushwant Singh's works is he's basically neutral but when it suits him he jumps on either of the bandwagons surrounding him.

i wouldnt say he was neutral. He was anti bhindranwala, and even lied about this "fatwa" on him.

Sikhs discriminated.. which way they were discriminated? Sikhs were even given reservation on the basis of the caste like Hindus. Sikhs were and are about 15-20% of the Armed forces (population roughly 2%) - was that a discrimination? Sikhs carried out morchas for their sectarian demands inc Punjabi suba. All of their demands were accepted by Nehru and then Indira Gandhi.

I havent bothered witth the rest of the post, as your opening paragraph is drivel. Sikhs were about 25% of India's army, before a crub was put on their numbers to 15%. Even then the indian state tried to bring in population proportion, which would have meant the Sikhs would be less than 2% in the army.

To me Bhindranwale was a human being, living breathing, who did some good, did some bad, made some nice ideas, but made a whole series of mistakes such as opposing the use of English among Sikhs, opposing the wearing of English clothes (not a major problem as compared to being against English), wasn't flexible enough to make some room to accommodate Hindi when the Gurus accommodated even more Languages (almost taking a page out of Muhammden history to oppose other languages and to impose Arabic).

Can you give us any exmaples when he said any of the above?

[chatanga1]

No place for dissent or counter-argument in today's SGPC brand Sikhi. accept Tat Khalsa, neo-Sikh agenda or face the wrath Admin Cut

well it work's for the hindus and the indian government.

[Genie Singh]

Don't know about bhindranwale, but the name bhindranwale has sure brought alot of damage before bhindranwales fame Sikh history doesn't record sikhs putting bounties or fatwas on other peoples head. (massar ranghar is a different story he had occupied harmander, abdali was killing people, people were defending themselves, the who ethos of gurus message was not to raise the sword first but to answer it, as bhindranwale had conveniently quoted) When we lose the moral ground on killing people then what good is the rest of dharma when paramata is within humans we seek to do bali of.

The only issue of the anandpur resolution I can see is declaring amritsar a holy city and what that means, with the banning of alcohol, drugs and meat. Most drugs are already banned, alcohol bans aren't that bad but usually just lead to bootlegging of alochol as seen with alcohol bans, which bring a whole series of ban. But then banning meat is just something where bhindranwale has put his opinon ontop of the whole panth and abrogated the whole concept of jhatka meat. Had that gone through the practice of nihang jhatka would have become illegal and it's likely purathan nihang jatha-bandi would have ended up in jail and later clashed with the taksali empowered government. Which would have just lead to a mass exodus of punjabis out of punjab speeding up the whole process of bahyias coming into punjab. But yet to speak like that can get you a fatwa on your head since bhindranwale didn't like to listen to anyone else's opinion.

I will try bring you some sources on the whole english language, english dress things. And I don't real have any other agenda then just talking about these matters. If you haven't noticed I have been arguing against Sher and his counterpart Ekomkar. I view the non belief of sants a part of puratan sikhisha in the vidya of gurmat sikhi.

Edited January 22, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[chatanga1]

But then banning meat is just something where bhindranwale has put his opinon ontop of the whole panth and abrogated the whole concept of jhatka meat. Had that gone through the practice of nihang jhatka would have become illegal and it's likely purathan nihang jatha-bandi would have ended up in jail and later clashed with the taksali empowered government.

I will try bring you some sources on the whole english language, english dress things.

see it's things like this that make me think that you are here with some ulterior motive.

please provide any reference to meat where bhindranwale put his opinion on the panth.

i can give you an example of where bhindranwalas personal opinion was not forced on the panth, and that is the reading of Sri Raagmala at the end of Akhand paths at Sri Akal Takht Sahib. One of Bhindranwalas followers took it upon himself to read it, and was admonished by bhindranwala himself, for breaking maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

I would really like to know where you are getting your ideas from, although I think you are making them up, I will still give you the benefit of the doubt as we are all here to learn.

[Jonny101]

see it's things like this that make me think that you are here with some ulterior motive.

please provide any reference to meat where bhindranwale put his opinion on the panth.

i can give you an example of where bhindranwalas personal opinion was not forced on the panth, and that is the reading of Sri Raagmala at the end of Akhand paths at Sri Akal Takht Sahib. One of Bhindranwalas followers took it upon himself to read it, and was admonished by bhindranwala himself, for breaking maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

I would really like to know where you are getting your ideas from, although I think you are making them up, I will still give you the benefit of the doubt as we are all here to learn.

Very true. This is one of many things that were praiseworthy of Sant Jee. He never forced his view on the Panth. He always wanted Ekta of the panth more than anything else because he knew that if all five fingers are curled together only then it will make a strong fist. If we are united, then we can achieve so much more. The whole panth was united during the Dharm Yudh Morcha. This in turn gave sleepless nights and diarrhea to the Arya Samajis, Narakdharis and the congress who spent no time in creating the 3rd agency and employing the Mahasha hindu press of Punjab to create an atmosphere of hate and fear among the Hindus and Sikhs.

And nothing wrong with doing Sodha of Panth Dokhis who kill Sikhs. Sikhs have had a very long history of doing Sodha of such Dushts

[Genie Singh]

Okay a couple of sources (we all accept Bhindranwale wanted to pass the anandpur resolution):

Religious Requests

Among the religious requests in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution were that the Golden Temple in Amritsar (the holiest of Sikh shrines) be equipped with radio transmitters so Sikhs at large could listen to religious hymns sung there. The other major religious demand was for Amritsar to be declared a holy city and forbidding the sale of alcohol and tobacco around the complex. Let it be noted, Haridwar a city of religious significance for Hindus has such restrictions. Such religious demands should not be an issue to grant.

source: http://saintsoldiers.net/


A definition of what India classifies as a "Holy City":

"No meat, liquor in MP's 'holy cities'

Last updated on: January 28, 2004 21:19 IST

The Bharatiya Janata Party government in Madhya Pradesh on Wednesday decided to declare Maheshwar, Amarkantak and notified areas of Ujjain as 'holy cities' where sale of liquor and non-vegetarian food, including eggs, will be banned"

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/uma/20040128.htm

" In a rush to mould Madhya Pradesh to her beliefs, chief minister Uma Bharti today declared Maheshwar and Amarkantak “holy cities” and banned the sale of liquor, meat, fish and eggs there."
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040130/asp/nation/story_2840928.asp

"Addressing the meeting, Shri Gaur directed that the places of religious, historic, mythological and tourist importance should be identified and the areas around them demarcated in all these cities. The sale of meat and liquor would be prohibited in these areas. "

http://web1163.165.new.ocpwebserver.com/mpinfonew/english/newsarch/2004/0204/23/n2.asp

Edited January 23, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

And nothing wrong with doing Sodha of Panth Dokhis who kill Sikhs. Sikhs have had a very long history of doing Sodha of such Dushts

If someone doesn't agree with you, you can easily call them an enemy of the panth and have them killed off, there is a big problem in just killing off people. Sikhs took the sword as the last option, and only answered it as a means to survive through self defence not by being aggressors by killing off various cult leaders. When you go killing people forget dharama you have lost it all. Such as just waking off gurbachan singh and Lala Jagat Narain. We are supposed to be Sikhs not the mafia.

Edited January 23, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[dalsingh101]

I think we aren't that way inclined these days. I mean look at the bumbling buffoonry of the recent attempt to knock off Brar in London.

One thing I sometimes wonder about is the overly macho position of certain Amritdhari Sikhs today who seem to wallow in the past deeds of assassin Singhs and appear to be in some fantasy that they are somehow still a potent threat like those people were.

[Genie Singh]

I think we aren't that way inclined these days. I mean look at the bumbling buffoonry of the recent attempt to knock off Brar in London.

One thing I sometimes wonder about is the overly macho position of certain Amritdhari Sikhs today who seem to wallow in the past deeds of assassin Singhs and appear to be in some fantasy that they are somehow still a potent threat like those people were.

Well on an international stage India was shamed that the out of the world's largest democracy, it's retried general was shanked and pushed to the ground like a petty commoner. His living through the shame as a senior citizen only made things worse. When he was admitted into a common ward by the government and treated as a normal patient. Upon going to India he received his limited period of preferential treatment from armed body guards, private treatment, interviews and abit of cash to grease his palms. Brar's hero status from the independence of bangladesh faded from the time sikhs saved the honour of the women of bangladesh. The man was involved in defeating armies of muhammadens inclusive of the descendants of khatri, afghan and arab warriors.

Brar said: " I won the Vir Chakra for the action that my battalion fought at Jabalpur on the night of 10/11 December 1971. It was an all night battle against 31st Baluch of the Pak army in which the enemy launched continuous attacks against my battalion which had entrenched itself in its rear." Source: http://www.rediff.com/chat/brarcht1.htm

"Lieutenant-General Kuldip Singh Brar PVSM, AVSM, VrC is a retired Indian Army officer, who was involved in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971" source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuldip_Singh_Brar

Edited January 23, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Jonny101]

If someone doesn't agree with you, you can easily call them an enemy of the panth and have them killed off, there is a big problem in just killing off people. Sikhs took the sword as the last option, and only answered it as a means to survive through self defence not by being aggressors by killing off various cult leaders. When you go killing people forget dharama you have lost it all. Such as just waking off gurbachan singh and Lala Jagat Narain. We are supposed to be Sikhs not the mafia.

I think it's pretty easy for us to judge someone sitting on our armchairs. Sikhs are not "mafia" but Sikhs are also not cowardly. If someone is going to kill Sikhs in cold blood and do beadbi of Guru Jee, and that country's justice system also fails to implement the law because they are too busy protecting killers of Sikhs, then I can't blame my Sikh brothers who follow Guru Gobind Singh Jee's soch of Chu Kar Hama Heelte Dar Guzasht, Halal Ast Burdan Ba Shamshir Dast

Sikhs have a long history of doing Sodha of Dushts and Panth Dokhis. You seem to like the Nihangs alot, it's interesting because when Dayananad Saraswati first came to Punjab and started doing his koor parchar Nihangs wanted to do Sodha of him. There was even an incident of when Dayanand doing one of his lectures and said something against Guru Nanak Dev Jee. A Nihang who was present there was about to decapitate him right there and then, but other Sikhs saved Dayanand. During the misl period nearly all the Sikhs were Nihangs and countless Panth Dokhis like Massa Rangar were hacked to death by some brave Singh. To this day Sikhs whether they are Udham Singh, Bhai Ranjit Singh, Satwant SIngh Beant Singh, Sukha Jinda or the two Mona Sikhs veers who did sodha of Poola in Jail are just following the examples set by those puraatan Nihangs.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Jonny101

[Jonny101]

I think we aren't that way inclined these days. I mean look at the bumbling buffoonry of the recent attempt to knock off Brar in London.

One thing I sometimes wonder about is the overly macho position of certain Amritdhari Sikhs today who seem to wallow in the past deeds of assassin Singhs and appear to be in some fantasy that they are somehow still a potent threat like those people were.

Let's not turn this into Amritdhari vs Mona issue. Amritdharis are not the only one's who do Sodha of Dushts. Half the great Sodha's done of Panth Dokhis were done by Mona Sikhs. Udham Singh(of Jillianwala bagh), Sukha-Jinda, Dilawar Singh Babbar(who killed Beanta), the two mona Sikhs who killed Poohla in jail. When someone inflicts death of Sikhs or does beadbi of Guru Maharaj, all Sikhs whether they are Amritdhari or Mona will feel the same amount of anger.

[chatanga1]

If someone doesn't agree with you, you can easily call them an enemy of the panth and have them killed off, there is a big problem in just killing off people. Sikhs took the sword as the last option, and only answered it as a means to survive through self defence not by being aggressors by killing off various cult leaders. When you go killing people forget dharama you have lost it all. Such as just waking off gurbachan singh and Lala Jagat Narain. We are supposed to be Sikhs not the mafia.

I know its easy to kill off people, by labeling them as enemies, india has made a very good job of this.

You seem to confuse self-defence as being aggressive in the rest of your post.

Okay a couple of sources (we all accept Bhindranwale wanted to pass the anandpur resolution):

Religious Requests

Among the religious requests in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution were that the Golden Temple in Amritsar (the holiest of Sikh shrines) be equipped with radio transmitters so Sikhs at large could listen to religious hymns sung there. The other major religious demand was for Amritsar to be declared a holy city and forbidding the sale of alcohol and tobacco around the complex. Let it be noted, Haridwar a city of religious significance for Hindus has such restrictions. Such religious demands should not be an issue to grant.

source: http://saintsoldiers.net/

No.

you have put words into that speech, bhindranwala never mentioned meat at all, can you tell me why you have inserted this word and tried to malign him?

I had my suspicions about you, and after this, I am sure that you are up to something here.

maybe this will help others decide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3I4Ld_NqFM