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The British Government Helped 'free' The Harimandir In 1984?


Ekomkar

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I know its easy to kill off people, by labeling them as enemies, india has made a very good job of this.

You seem to confuse self-defence as being aggressive in the rest of your post.

No.

you have put words into that speech, bhindranwala never mentioned meat at all, can you tell me why you have inserted this word and tried to malign him?

I had my suspicions about you, and after this, I am sure that you are up to something here.

maybe this will help others decide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3I4Ld_NqFM

Thanks for sharing my link - I put that up in the status thought I could see some opinions on the matter. God forbid anyone say Har or Hari- we would rather chant hindustan murdabad, burn effiges and burn indian flags- shouting out threats/fatwas to people (surely that way we will convert the whole world to khalsa- the pure ones). But it seems you are jumping the gun, why beat around the bush and not just say I'm an enemy of the panth, on the RSS payroll and should be killed? Or are you then going to tell me that I'm defaming Sikhi and then ask for me to be blocked on the discussion board or worse? geez all this ss- negativity what happened to the open minded sikh awareness breath of fresh air. RSS paranoia is extremely vast in growth to the point where we can't even discuss with our hindu brothers the virtue of the sikh faith in order to spread it.

I will still say it Bhindranwales views don't fit into purataan sikhi and now you are twisting something implied directly under what defines a holy city. It was demanded that status be granted to amritsar. Sometimes when you want to get your way with people you shouldn't over-explain something or you might just talk your way out of a sale. That's why bhindranwale didn't need to go into details of the whole banning of meat. At present there was some discussion to declare amritsar a city of heritage. It seems the more darker sides of the past that come out of Sikh insurgencies the more unlikely it becomes such status can be granted, since it will be felt the wider government is giving into militants and basically bowing to them. By the way my translation is correct, but you either have mistranslated it i.e. don't understand it yourself, or want a wider context or are in denial about it.

The character of bhindranwale did have some differences between say nand singh, like nand singh wasn't one to say no, say wrong, cut people off, wave guns around. He was more of the type to put his head down and meditate, pray. A better virtue shown by him but still not all the way.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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I think it's pretty easy for us to judge someone sitting on our armchairs. Sikhs are not "mafia" but Sikhs are also not cowardly. If someone is going to kill Sikhs in cold blood and do beadbi of Guru Jee, and that country's justice system also fails to implement the law because they are too busy protecting killers of Sikhs, then I can't blame my Sikh brothers who follow Guru Gobind Singh Jee's soch of Chu Kar Hama Heelte Dar Guzasht, Halal Ast Burdan Ba Shamshir Dast

Sikhs have a long history of doing Sodha of Dushts and Panth Dokhis. You seem to like the Nihangs alot, it's interesting because when Dayananad Saraswati first came to Punjab and started doing his koor parchar Nihangs wanted to do Sodha of him. There was even an incident of when Dayanand doing one of his lectures and said something against Guru Nanak Dev Jee. A Nihang who was present there was about to decapitate him right there and then, but other Sikhs saved Dayanand. During the misl period nearly all the Sikhs were Nihangs and countless Panth Dokhis like Massa Rangar were hacked to death by some brave Singh. To this day Sikhs whether they are Udham Singh, Bhai Ranjit Singh, Satwant SIngh Beant Singh, Sukha Jinda or the two Mona Sikhs veers who did sodha of Poola in Jail are just following the examples set by those puraatan Nihangs.

I adore some of the virtues of Nihangs but I further adore Sikh scholars like Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and the sardars who formed the early singh sabha. I am not interested that much in the reformation movements that took place in jatha bhindra in the taksal to produce an evangelical group who claim puritan value. When it came to people like Bhai Vir Singh you could have a discussion and learn from him. There was no problem in being wrong you wouldn't have your head cut off. What message did that whole aryan samaj incident send to the wider population? You aren't welcome here, if you open your mouth this is what will happen. What's the difference between that and the taliban? Sikh scholars embraced the open policy guru nanak had of his preachers, who came to caste away doubt. That isn't an example of the last resort to solve a problem by publicly beheading someone you don't like based off something you don't like to hear. I some what agree with the earlier nihang sikh origin. Massa Ranghar was literally asking for beheading, who set out camp danced kanjaris around, drank alcohol, filled the sarovar up, was killing people. That was the only means to get rid of him. It does appear people must have had some discourse to see he was unwilling to move- it could have been possible that he was mistaken or mentally unwell but he was in concious when he dishonoured the place.

Guru ji teaches us he is present in all, isn't killing another innocent human then his beadbi aswell? Or else maybe Bhai Kanhaiya did deserve to be punished for giving water to the enemy of the panth? As for all these cold blood cases many are numerous, some have just turned into nothing but rumours, he said, she said, he said- we haven't formed facts based off them. Sure India is corrupt but india isn't going to be fixed by killing off people. Guru Gobind Singh did try to communicate first and he was extremely patient he didn't order immediate hostile invasion and initial attacks. I'm not a fan of jhatka gala- being harsh, without thinking things through, beating up people- this is mafia gang acts not those acts of a true spiritual person who spreads peace and not fear. Pacifism is a ticket to loose dharam but aggression is also a ticket to loose dharam.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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Let's not turn this into Amritdhari vs Mona issue. Amritdharis are not the only one's who do Sodha of Dushts. Half the great Sodha's done of Panth Dokhis were done by Mona Sikhs. Udham Singh(of Jillianwala bagh), Sukha-Jinda, Dilawar Singh Babbar(who killed Beanta), the two mona Sikhs who killed Poohla in jail. When someone inflicts death of Sikhs or does beadbi of Guru Maharaj, all Sikhs whether they are Amritdhari or Mona will feel the same amount of anger.

I hear you, I'm just wondering if Sikhs have moved on from the political assassination to make a point?

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I adore some of the virtues of Nihangs but I further adore Sikh scholars like Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Sahib Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and the sardars who formed the early singh sabha. I am not interested that much in the reformation movements that took place in jatha bhindra in the taksal to produce an evangelical group who claim puritan value. When it came to people like Bhai Vir Singh you could have a discussion and learn from him. There was no problem in being wrong you wouldn't have your head cut off. What message did that whole aryan samaj incident send to the wider population? You aren't welcome here, if you open your mouth this is what will happen. What's the difference between that and the taliban? Sikh scholars embraced the open policy guru nanak had of his preachers, who came to caste away doubt. That isn't an example of the last resort to solve a problem by publicly beheading someone you don't like based off something you don't like to hear. I some what agree with the earlier nihang sikh origin. Massa Ranghar was literally asking for beheading, who set out camp danced kanjaris around, drank alcohol, filled the sarovar up, was killing people. That was the only means to get rid of him. It does appear people must have had some discourse to see he was unwilling to move- it could have been possible that he was mistaken or mentally unwell but he was in concious when he dishonoured the place.

Guru ji teaches us he is present in all, isn't killing another innocent human then his beadbi aswell? Or else maybe Bhai Kanhaiya did deserve to be punished for giving water to the enemy of the panth? As for all these cold blood cases many are numerous, some have just turned into nothing but rumours, he said, she said, he said- we haven't formed facts based off them. Sure India is corrupt but india isn't going to be fixed by killing off people. Guru Gobind Singh did try to communicate first and he was extremely patient he didn't order immediate hostile invasion and initial attacks. I'm not a fan of jhatka gala- being harsh, without thinking things through, beating up people- this is mafia gang acts not those acts of a true spiritual person who spreads peace and not fear. Pacifism is a ticket to loose dharam but aggression is also a ticket to loose dharam.

The impression I am getting from your posts the last few days is that, if it's a Muslim who is a Panth Dokhi, then he should be done Sodha of but if the Dusht is a Hindu or Sikh then it's perfectly fine and dandy.

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The impression I am getting from your posts the last few days is that, if it's a Muslim who is a Panth Dokhi, then he should be done Sodha of but if the Dusht is a Hindu or Sikh then it's perfectly fine and dandy.

I never said go and do jhatka of muhammadens. There are ways to deal with matters without killing people. Sometimes talking with people does resolve matters. If you go around killing people, people are usually likely to take revenge, which is what usually inflames communal riots or cold blooded killings. Nor am I in favour of begging muhammdens to turn against hindus or hindus against muhammdens.

When babur came and massacred many people Bhai Mardana asked Guru Nanak why did babur kill so many men. To explain it, guru ji told mardana to sleep under a tree and he will explain it later. One ant stung mardana, he woke up crushed it and went and crushed a whole lot of them. Guru ji explained just as one bothered you, you took it out on the rest, perhaps to avoid further bites.

Likewise we should seek our lesson not in going around returning cold blood killings with cold blood killings. But I understand that lying down and being a pacifist won't resolve matters and according to yourself and others insurgency was required since the police wasn't helping and civil matters rose up high. So I think what we have here is a paradoxical event not something with a clear cut answer to solve the problem by killing people.

I am not in the favour of blasphemy laws, if we go around killing hindus or muslims who misunderstand what our teachings are they shouldn't be waked off, dialogue should take place. If you are going to speak about burning gurbani saroops it's a different matter and I feel I won't be able to persuade you of any other way of dealing with it other then killing that person even if the person was mentally ill or it was accident to restore our honour and a proud feeling that person must die surely because it's what sikhi and the gurus taught?

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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But it seems you are jumping the gun, why beat around the bush and not just say I'm an enemy of the panth, on the RSS payroll and should be killed?

There you go again, ascribing words to people. I have said that there is something suspicious about you, but, I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Or are you then going to tell me that I'm defaming Sikhi and then ask for me to be blocked on the discussion board or worse? geez all this ss- negativity what happened to the open minded sikh awareness breath of fresh air. RSS paranoia is extremely vast in growth to the point where we can't even discuss with our hindu brothers the virtue of the sikh faith in order to spread it.

Like Neo said, there are ways and means, and stop whining, as no-one has ever asked for you to be banned.

I will still say it Bhindranwales views don't fit into purataan sikhi and now you are twisting something implied directly under what defines a holy city. It was demanded that status be granted to amritsar. Sometimes when you want to get your way with people you shouldn't over-explain something or you might just talk your way out of a sale. That's why bhindranwale didn't need to go into details of the whole banning of meat.

thats where you are wrong, and you clearly don't know about bhindranwala. he was not the kind of man to try and sell anything to anyone, he spoke the truth. no more and nothing less. He NEVER said anything about meat, and you have put it (deliberately IMO) to make him out to be someone he wasn't.

You couldnt even understand the words he spoke about God's true court, yet you make out that you understand hidden agendas and words in his actions. Who are you trying to deceive?

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thats where you are wrong, and you clearly don't know about bhindranwala. he was not the kind of man to try and sell anything to anyone, he spoke the truth. no more and nothing less. He NEVER said anything about meat, and you have put it (deliberately IMO) to make him out to be someone he wasn't.

You couldnt even understand the words he spoke about God's true court, yet you make out that you understand hidden agendas and words in his actions. Who are you trying to deceive?

Let's just say then in his demands of making amritsar a holy city he never defined the meat thing in which it would make it differ to other holy cities, yet it was expressed by those surrounding him the likeness of the holy city of amritsar to the likeness of other hindu holy states as an easy simple move to take place.That sounds exactly like muhammden self denial when you tell them muhammad was a pedophille. I don't know how self denial feels or what causes it perhaps you could care to explain it. You know the self denial doesn't help your cause much it really plays on the whole childish notion of "well you are stupid and I'm right, if you were smart you would know he is the best guy in the world". I don't like telling people they don't know what they are talking about, since it usually turns into a red herring, shows a lack of higher civility in a discussion and pushes away the other party the opportunity to actually be enlightened on the subject.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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You couldnt even understand the words he spoke about God's true court, yet you make out that you understand hidden agendas and words in his actions. Who are you trying to deceive?

Sant Bhindranwale was a straight forward man who spoke the truth from the heart. Yet the urban Hindus who themselves have ulterior motives always tried to create an alternative meaning of his straight forward words.

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This topic will be closed in three days, both parties please bring your closing statements to conclude this topic. We cannot have highly emotionally charged topic go on for a long time as it may inadvertently interrupt overall learning experience and peaceful spiritual vibe of this forum.

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Let's just say then in his demands of making amritsar a holy city he never defined the meat thing in which it would make it differ to other holy cities, yet it was expressed by those surrounding him the likeness of the holy city of amritsar to the likeness of other hindu holy states as an easy simple move to take place.

NO, let's NOT just say that, because then I would be doing something that you are quite adept at, and that is ascribing words to people, whereas the evidence says otherwise.

Who around him expressed it?

This man Sukhpreet Udhoke is highly biased against Hindus and a master distortionist. his version of punjab history can be described in just one word - BS.

Telling it as it is, doesn't make him biased. You should open your ears.

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This man Sukhpreet Udhoke is highly biased against Hindus and a master distortionist. his version of punjab history can be described in just one word - BS.

@ 27:00 mins in the discussion in the posted video, bhai saab says "sare sikha nu problem nahi ..." What is he trying to convey? 1984 was an attack on Sikhs worldwide ... Can we please have some thoughts on this to get a better understanding?

Edited by OnPathToSikhi
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@ 27:00 mins in the discussion in the posted video, bhai saab says "sare sikha nu problem nahi ..." What is he trying to convey? 1984 was an attack on Sikhs worldwide ... Can we please have some thoughts on this to get a better understanding?

when she said sare sikhan nu problem nahi - he is quoting german courts who granted political assylum, which conveys why some sikhs can still live in india unharmed in 84 and why some had to leave india and take assylum for the sake of their lives.

Bhai Sahib in yellow dastar is answering a question about the support of germany in rebuttal to european countries not siding with sikhs and producing sas like support to india. Bhai sahib said that germany helped sikhs and recognised those human rights violations and gave political refugee asylum to them.

The he quotes what the german courts had said that they accept sikhs did have human rights violations and not all sikhs were victims of human rights violations (rubbing red chilli powder into eyes, anal cavity, genitalia, breaking bones, electrocuting people, using a roling pin on and balancing weight on people, water boarding the least of it all, depriving sleep)

he said the human rights violations didn't take place on all Sikhs, not all Sikhs were pulled up tortured by police, or had members of their family killed or were threatened to be killed.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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of course saare sikhan nu na problem siggi na hai. only a miniscule group of (mainly) majha jats became, to use an euphemism, kharku.

some of the victims of Punjab Police 'HR violations' must have been innocent but they did not show any respect for the same HRs while butchering innocent civilians inc the families of the police wallahs. Most of those who sought asylums overseas were economic migrants. earler they were used to claim asylum saying they were kharkus, these days they claim to be Dera Sacha Sauda followers. of course, the latter have no human rights.

Check this out, this speaker answers a question is Sikhi a sect of Hinduism? at 00:41:46

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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You know as well as me what Sher is going to say.

My guess is he might say Jagraj from the video is a separatist neo-anglo wishy washy udhooke sikh etc. and sikhs are a sect of hinduism. And there isn't nothing special about sikhs since it's all from hinduism and nothing is new within it which wasn't from hinduism. I can't find the mentions of daswandh from any hindu granth but we will probably hear charity is normal in hinduism donation box etc.

Maybe say that in hinduism it's okay for people to get revelation throughout and hindus today still do get it and Guru Nanak was a very good hindu. Might hear something about advaita if we are lucky and upanishads about adh sach etc.

2.2 “In the beginning was only Being, One without a second. 2.3 Out of himself he brought forth the cosmos And entered into everything in it. There is nothing that does not come from him. Of everything he is the inmost Self. He is the truth; he is the Self supreme. You are that, Shvetaketu; you are that.”

CHAPTER VI The Story of Shvetaketu
Easwaran, Eknath (2009-06-01). The Upanishads (Classic of Indian Spirituality) (Kindle Locations 1566-1573). Nilgiri Press. Kindle Edition.

sounds like pir dastagir story find rab with bandagi

16 Know him to be the Supreme One, hidden Within the hearts of all like cream in milk And yet encompassing the universe. May he, Shiva, free us from all bondage.

Easwaran, Eknath (2009-06-01). The Upanishads (Classic of Indian Spirituality) (Kindle Locations 2186-2189). Nilgiri Press. Kindle Edition.

Edited by JatherdarSahib
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My guess is he might say Jagraj from the video is a separatist neo-anglo wishy washy udhooke sikh etc. and sikhs are a sect of hinduism. And there isn't nothing special about sikhs since it's all from hinduism and nothing is new within it which wasn't from hinduism. I can't find the mentions of daswandh from any hindu granth but we will probably hear charity is normal in hinduism donation box etc.

Maybe say that in hinduism it's okay for people to get revelation throughout and hindus today still do get it and Guru Nanak was a very good hindu. Might hear something about advaita if we are lucky and upanishads about adh sach etc.

Or we might hear something lifted straight from the gita along the lines of Krishna being the only supreme fount of Godhead and all others worshipping him in different ways. If we are lucky we might see Jagraj being cast as a Khalistani battling for destroying India and all it's Hindu entourage. All in all it will end with the usual damn you Singh-Sabha rhetoric. What happened to our old genocidal friend Ekomkaar by the way?

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Or we might hear something lifted straight from the gita along the lines of Krishna being the only supreme fount of Godhead and all others worshipping him in different ways. If we are lucky we might see Jagraj being cast as a Khalistani battling for destroying India and all it's Hindu entourage. All in all it will end with the usual damn you Singh-Sabha rhetoric. What happened to our old genocidal friend Ekomkaar by the way?

ekomkar got blocked off he said enough crazy things to have crossed the line apparently- I still think sher is the same person so we still get to tap into the same mind for answers on the india rhetoric.

Jagraj said sikhs don't need khalistan, maybe he might say Jagraj is lying but he is saying what he is saying

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You guys are paranoid about one person. i seem to be the proverbial cat among the pigeons.

Dasvandh ..adh sach are minor details, you guys cannot see the forest for trees.

you are absolutely right, nothing new in Sikh scriptures. As even khushwant has mentioned, sorry i am repeating it but the sikhs have borrowed their theology in totality. they could have claimed that 'waheguru ' (again, small detail as mentioned only few times in Granth sahib) is new but Bhai Gurdas made sure that Sanatans get the credit for that too.

everything has already been said in various Vedas, Upanishids, puranas and other so called Hindu scriptures.

PS As far as my being Ekomkar is concerned, someone got to be totally moronic to assume that. simple reason - why would i not save one id in case my first id is blocked? anyway, focus on the message boys, not the messenger

So nothing on the dasvandh then?

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