Why Did Sant Ji Fortify Darbar Sahib?

[namdhari555]

Sangat Ji i had a question in my mind for a while. Basically Sant Ji was staying in Darbar Sahib before 1984 but what i dont understand is why then did Sant Ji and his men start to fortify Darbar Sahib what was the reason?

[Jonny101]

Sangat Ji i had a question in my mind for a while. Basically Sant Ji was staying in Darbar Sahib before 1984 but what i dont understand is why then did Sant Ji and his men start to fortify Darbar Sahib what was the reason?

to prepare for the attack by the Indian Army.

[namdhari555]

to prepare for the attack by the Indian Army.

But why were the indian army going to attack Darbar Sahib. Is it because Sant Ji was in there. If they were going to attack Sant Ji why did they need the army.

Edited January 22, 2014 by namdhari555

[Jonny101]

Sant Bhindranwale Did Nothing Wrong By Defending The Golden Temple

General S. K. Sinha (Retd.), GOC-in-C of the Western Command, Spokesman Weekly,

July 16,1984

While fighting against army hordes from June 5 to 7 last, Sikhs inside the Golden Temple Complex at Amritsar were exercising their legitimate right of self defence. This conclusion is based on the facts revealed and assessment made by Lieutenant General S. K. Sinha (Retd.), when he was GOC-in-C of the Western Command.

"The Army action was not the 'last resort' as Prime Minister Indira Gandhi would have us believe, decided upon toward May-end (1984). It had been in her mind for more than 18 months".

Said the General that when he was GOC-in-C of Western Command, he got a call around 10pm, from 'someone in Delhi' that a decision had been taken at the highest level that the army should undertake the arrest of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. Nothing was heard after the General told the caller that in matters like this he would like to hear from either the Chief of Army Staff or the Defence Minister.

This was toward 1981 end when Darbara Singh was Chief Minister i.e. nearly 30 months before the Army actually struck at Arnritsar.

"Again, when Sant Bhindranwale went into Mehta Chowk" adds General Sinha, "there was a request to the Army to supply Armoured Personnel Carriers (APC) to the police to facilitate his arrest."

This was long before the Akalis launched their morcha in August 1982. Shortly after the morcha, the Army began rehearsals of a commando raid near Chakrata Cantonment in the Doon Valley, where a complete replica of the Golden Temple complex had been built.

"Another training involving Aviation Research Centre Commandos, was given in the Sarsawa area and Yamuna bed in helicopters converted into gunships. This plan, earmarked for implementation first in August last year (1983) and then in April this (1984) year, was given up as it had leaked out to the Sikh militants."

"In view of these military preparations, if Sant Bhindranwale and his men decided to defend the Golden Temple with all their might and means, no one can, and should, blame them."

"You are duty-bound to do your all when you know someone is going to raid your house. In this case, the house was the holiest Sikh Shrine in the world."

"All you have to do is to match the adversary's weapons with your own weapons of equal, if not more, fire power. This is an acknowledged rule of combat."

"Mrs. Gandhi contends that arms were being collected by Sant Bhindranwale for the last one year. But this was much after she herself had drawn up plans for Army action against the Golden Temple and other gurdwaras."

"In December, last year (1983) two trenches were dug by Sant's men in front of Teja Singh Samundari Hall within the holy complex but he was persuaded to fill them up."

"This proves that till then no responsible Akali leader was prepared for an armed showdown with the Government."

Fortification of the complex, according to SGPC Secretary Bhan Singh, started from February 17 this year (1984). And that also after CRPF and BSF units had resorted to unprovoked firing and had begun converting the buildings on the periphery of the temple into bunkers and fortresses. This action of the Sikhs was a just response to the provocation provided by Government's para military forces.

Again, toward May end this year, CRPF and BSF units deliberately fired 10,000 bullets per day on the temple area for more than a week in order to find out from the return firing, as has been officially admitted now, where the terrorist fortifications were located and what kind of equipment they had. This was given a deliberate design to escalate the conflict.

No Sikh worth his salt could allow easy entry into the Golden Temple area to any armed force. It is his sacred duty to smash the enemy's teeth and sacrifice his life while fighting.

This is what Sant Bhindranwale and his men did. In the best tradition of Sikh warriors, they fought to the last bullet and their last breath.

For the same reason, hundreds of men, women and children, who had come to the Golden Temple as pilgrims, decided to lay down their lives when they saw the army invading the holy area.

Before this open clash of arms, there were hardly five per cent Sikhs who supported Sant Bhindranwale's actions or utterances. But now the Government has made him a hero in the Sikhs' eyes. Now everyone, including his previous detractors, hail him as a martyr of the same genre as Baba Deep Singh who had fought against Ahmed Shah Abdali's

marauders.

Sant Bhindranwale's previous acts of commission and omission stand washed white by his making the supreme sacrifice of life for a noble cause. The present Government shall live to rue the day of June 5, 1984.

[namdhari555]

Also what did Sant Ji do that made the politicans go after him.

These are my questions

1.why did they want Sant Ji arrested

2. Sant ji was preaching inside Darbar Sahib why did his man start to build bunkers.

3. Why send the army why not surround Darbar Sahib and cut all the food going in.

Edited January 22, 2014 by namdhari555

[Jonny101]

Also what did Sant Ji do that made the politicans go after him.

These are my questions

1.why did they want Sant Ji arrested

2. Sant ji was preaching inside Darbar Sahib why did his man start to build bunkers.

1. the politicians of congress party, Arya Samaj leadership and Narakdharis are the one who wanted him eliminated because his parchar exposed their lies and was awakening the Sikh nation.

2. Read the article I posted

Edited January 22, 2014 by Jonny101

[namdhari555]

1. the politicians of congress party, Arya Samaj leadership and Narakdharis are the one who wanted him eliminated because his parchar exposed their lies and was awakening the Sikh nation.

But why send in the army why make a big scene and draw attention to the event even more. Why didnt they use the local police and why did the army trycutting the food that was going in so everybody had to come out.

[Genie Singh]

Also what did Sant Ji do that made the politicans go after him.

These are my questions

1.why did they want Sant Ji arrested

2. Sant ji was preaching inside Darbar Sahib why did his man start to build bunkers.

3. Why send the army why not surround Darbar Sahib and cut all the food going in.

Bhindranwale was arrested for the murder of the Nirankari baba [let me correct myself it was the murder of the head of a newspaper who had insulted bhindranwale in his newspaper], his followers mostly admit he did put a bounty on his head. However there was a lack of evidence, and a range of protests compelled the government to release him. Bhindranwale did say an attack was going to happen a year before- either intel, prophecy or he provoked the whole thing to begin with. The very definition of terrorism is to spread an ideology with the use of violence; bhindranwale had made threats like putting a sign outside of the golden temple saying anyone found to be smoking here will be beheaded and their head will be mounted outside. Or people mentioning bhindranwale said he will kill any amritdhari he finds drinking alcohol- (some sikhs tend to mention this).

Some say he started pillling bags of sand after General Subheg Singh defected from the Indian army to Bhindranwale having realised the government was going to raid the complex of the golden temple.

It seems Bhindranwale was moving a revivalist movement to re-arm sikhs and oppose the government (bhindranwale mentioned once in a speech that he was the sikh of a true court, the court of god and he was not going to observe a false government of india court- it seems to be an implementation of when sikhs stood against mughal tyranny) as early Sikhs had done to the mughal government. Bhindranwale felt Sikhs were discriminated against by the government and more so by the police. Bhindranwale in his speeches narrates mistreatment of Sikhs by the police the list goes from derobing Sikh daughters and parading them naked through villages, raping sikh women by the police, killing people, police stealing ( a range of things the punjab police is still accused of by human right violations). Bhindranwale felt the central government had issued the mistreatment of Sikhs. Bhindranwale also demanded the passing of the anandpur resolution to amend the constitution of India which people say Master Tara Singh the Sikh representative never signed. With the demands of the Sikhs.

Bhindranwale had said that altering the constitution wasn't a big matter for indira gandhi since she had in her term already done so (even though she was accused of electoral vote fraud). The anandpur resolution demanded Sikhs be established as a separate religion and not a sect of Hinduism under the marriage act which classified sikhs as hindus on marriage certificates. It also demanded establishing Amritsar as a holy state such as Mathaura(birth place of krishna)- which would mean the ban of consumption and sale of alcohol, meat and drugs. And lastly the right to broadcast the golden temple sermons and preaching through radio.

Broadcasting occurs today, as for the marriage act people claim this was in place during the time of the british but was removed by nehru, the complications some claim is difficulty in immigration. There have been some changes to the marriage act which require a couple going to court to have it changed through a long administrative procedure which make it easier to declare oneself just as a hindu. The third of making amritsar a religious state for some was very meaningful some felt Sikhi was under ideological attack by dilluting the population with kurehita. For india a ban of alcohol to punjab would hamper the economy since a large portion of punjabi drink, it would have lead to a series of crimes through bootlegging alcohol as does happen in gujrat and did happen in america.

General Brar says that when operation blue star took place they did stop all food supplies going in, they cut power, water and waited for 24 hours, they gave notice over loud speakers to vacate the complex. Some survivors say this is lies and they never heard it, general brar says they did announce it. The army was sent in due to the vast growth of bhindranwales men and supporters. After the operation they found weapons made in china and pakistan, they found men they claim were spies and men from pakistan through finding circumcisions- medical exams, they found khalistani dollars had been printed. After the flush out of those insurgents a whole series of insugencies took place including assaignation of government officials. Who these men said were involved in the genocide of Sikhs. General Brar felt bhindranwale had put everyone in danger. Indira Gandhi is said to have felt that had she given into the anandpur resolution the separatist militants would have asked for more and she had to put her foot down and be strong, give an inch they take a mile as she narrated, in one interview by general Sinha.

General Sinha once said that the indian army should have done prayers outside of the complex and asked bhindranwale and his men to join them in the prayers and surrender their weapons to guru granth sahib for peace. General Brar on radio in response to this method said time was of the essence there is no telling how long things would have taken and it would have been possible they would have shot the army men. General Brar says that the operation had to be done swiftly otherwise the inhabitants of punjab would have seen it as a threat and attacked the army. Brar also says before the operation he gave the freedom of his men to leave the operation with any doubts, a sikh stepped forward and brar told him with grace he could leave. But the sikh said he wants to go in first since bhindranwale has corrupted the sanctity of the golden temple. General Brar said bhindranwale corrupted the sanctity of the akal takht by living inside of it going toilet there, taking his bath there, eating there.

Bhindranwale was said to have taken camp there in 82 and it is felt in some documentaries he had provoked indira gandhi. Bhindranwales role as a priest, head of the taksal almost a bishop in the vatican is usually not considered. The question I would like to ask is if bhindranwale was such a great threat, why did they release him? Why not keep him detained and ignore the protests- so many peoples lives would have not been lost. They could have charged him with anything as they do to a whole range of people. We can see besides all the protests now india has rajoana locked up perhaps under the same perception of threat.

Bhindranwale and his men being armed with automatic machine guns, ak47s, bazakos, rocket launches, grenades, pistols- was perhaps an interpretation of Sikh teachings to rule independently when banda singh bahadur was given 5 arrows by guru gobind singh. The perception by other Sikhs was that the indian rule present was one that was constituted of sikhs especially when the president of india was a sikh - giani zail singh, who was assaignated by insurgent sikhs. This perception of Sikhs being a part of the government of India became thinner when the government of india conspired pograms in Delhi with systematic killings, loot, arson and rape of Sikhs in Delhi- even though there was a thin wall of cultural difference in the sikhs of delhi having mostly not heard of bhindranwale in a saintly way but through the radio as a separatist cult leader. The healing process to trial and bring to justice those who conspired in the pograms hasn't taken place and in many ways those who were involved have progressed along in the system of india. And much faith in India has been lost. For many Sikhs this sense of desperation lead to further diaspora.

Edited January 22, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

But why were the indian army going to attack Darbar Sahib. Is it because Sant Ji was in there. If they were going to attack Sant Ji why did they need the army.

Because it wasn't just Bhindranwale alone but his men, his followers who were all armed.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

But why send in the army why make a big scene and draw attention to the event even more. Why didnt they use the local police and why did the army trycutting the food that was going in so everybody had to come out.

The problem was Indra was not as popular as she was during the creation of Bangladesh. She needed a massive voting issue. What better than to steer an agitation towards violence via state prowess (police, para military etc), unleash a destructive attack, express a sorry face and than gain a landslide victory in the upcoming elections.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Bhindranwale was arrested for the murder of the Nirankari baba [let me correct myself it was the murder of the head of a newspaper who had insulted bhindranwale in his newspaper], his followers mostly admit he did put a bounty on his head. However there was a lack of evidence, and a range of protests compelled the government to release him. Bhindranwale did say an attack was going to happen a year before- either intel, prophecy or he provoked the whole thing to begin with. The very definition of terrorism is to spread an ideology with the use of violence; bhindranwale had made threats like putting a sign outside of the golden temple saying anyone found to be smoking here will be beheaded and their head will be mounted outside. Or people mentioning bhindranwale said he will kill any amritdhari he finds drinking alcohol- (some sikhs tend to mention this).

Some say he started pillling bags of sand after General Subheg Singh defected from the Indian army to Bhindranwale having realised the government was going to raid the complex of the golden temple.

It seems Bhindranwale was moving a revivalist movement to re-arm sikhs and oppose the government (bhindranwale mentioned once in a speech that he was the sikh of a true court, the court of god and he was not going to observe a false government of india court- it seems to be an implementation of when sikhs stood against mughal tyranny) as early Sikhs had done to the mughal government. Bhindranwale felt Sikhs were discriminated against by the government and more so by the police. Bhindranwale in his speeches narrates mistreatment of Sikhs by the police the list goes from derobing Sikh daughters and parading them naked through villages, raping sikh women by the police, killing people, police stealing ( a range of things the punjab police is still accused of by human right violations). Bhindranwale felt the central government had issued the mistreatment of Sikhs. Bhindranwale also demanded the passing of the anandpur resolution to amend the constitution of India which people say Master Tara Singh the Sikh representative never signed. With the demands of the Sikhs.

Bhindranwale had said that altering the constitution wasn't a big matter for indira gandhi since she had in her term already done so (even though she was accused of electoral vote fraud). The anandpur resolution demanded Sikhs be established as a separate religion and not a sect of Hinduism under the marriage act which classified sikhs as hindus on marriage certificates. It also demanded establishing Amritsar as a holy state such as Mathaura(birth place of krishna)- which would mean the ban of consumption and sale of alcohol, meat and drugs. And lastly the right to broadcast the golden temple sermons and preaching through radio.

Broadcasting occurs today, as for the marriage act people claim this was in place during the time of the british but was removed by nehru, the complications some claim is difficulty in immigration. There have been some changes to the marriage act which require a couple going to court to have it changed through a long administrative procedure which make it easier to declare oneself just as a hindu. The third of making amritsar a religious state for some was very meaningful some felt Sikhi was under ideological attack by dilluting the population with kurehita. For india a ban of alcohol to punjab would hamper the economy since a large portion of punjabi drink, it would have lead to a series of crimes through bootlegging alcohol as does happen in gujrat and did happen in america.

General Brar says that when operation blue star took place they did stop all food supplies going in, they cut power, water and waited for 24 hours, they gave notice over loud speakers to vacate the complex. Some survivors say this is lies and they never heard it, general brar says they did announce it. The army was sent in due to the vast growth of bhindranwales men and supporters. After the operation they found weapons made in china and pakistan, they found men they claim were spies and men from pakistan through finding circumcisions- medical exams, they found khalistani dollars had been printed. After the flush out of those insurgents a whole series of insugencies took place including assaignation of government officials. Who these men said were involved in the genocide of Sikhs. General Brar felt bhindranwale had put everyone in danger. Indira Gandhi is said to have felt that had she given into the anandpur resolution the separatist militants would have asked for more and she had to put her foot down and be strong, give an inch they take a mile as she narrated, in one interview by general Sinha.

General Sinha once said that the indian army should have done prayers outside of the complex and asked bhindranwale and his men to join them in the prayers and surrender their weapons to guru granth sahib for peace. General Brar on radio in response to this method said time was of the essence there is no telling how long things would have taken and it would have been possible they would have shot the army men. General Brar says that the operation had to be done swiftly otherwise the inhabitants of punjab would have seen it as a threat and attacked the army. Brar also says before the operation he gave the freedom of his men to leave the operation with any doubts, a sikh stepped forward and brar told him with grace he could leave. But the sikh said he wants to go in first since bhindranwale has corrupted the sanctity of the golden temple. General Brar said bhindranwale corrupted the sanctity of the akal takht by living inside of it going toilet there, taking his bath there, eating there.

Bhindranwale was said to have taken camp there in 82 and it is felt in some documentaries he had provoked indira gandhi. Bhindranwales role as a priest, head of the taksal almost a bishop in the vatican is usually not considered. The question I would like to ask is if bhindranwale was such a great threat, why did they release him? Why not keep him detained and ignore the protests- so many peoples lives would have not been lost. They could have charged him with anything as they do to a whole range of people. We can see besides all the protests now india has rajoana locked up perhaps under the same perception of threat.

Bhindranwale and his men being armed with automatic machine guns, ak47s, bazakos, rocket launches, grenades, pistols- was perhaps an interpretation of Sikh teachings to rule independently when banda singh bahadur was given 5 arrows by guru gobind singh. The perception by other Sikhs was that the indian rule present was one that was constituted of sikhs especially when the president of india was a sikh - giani zail singh, who was assaignated by insurgent sikhs. This perception of Sikhs being a part of the government of India became thinner when the government of india conspired pograms in Delhi with systematic killings, loot, arson and rape of Sikhs in Delhi- even though there was a thin wall of cultural difference in the sikhs of delhi having mostly not heard of bhindranwale in a saintly way but through the radio as a separatist cult leader. The healing process to trial and bring to justice those who conspired in the pograms hasn't taken place and in many ways those who were involved have progressed along in the system of india. And much faith in India has been lost. For many Sikhs this sense of desperation lead to further diaspora.

Try getting General V.K. Singh's (prior chief of army before General Bikramjit Singh) autobiography. He's devoted a whole section to mismanaged and unnecessary Indian military operations. Operation Bluestar is his main hen. He classifies it as being unnecessary, and once executed, heavily mismanaged. His contempt for Brar is basically infectious, whereas General Sundarji's character is overtly murdered. In the aftermath of his sacking, he leaked private information withheld by the army about many of it's operations. When questioned on Operation Bluestar, especially seeing his successor was a Sikh, he is known to have described a mismanaged scene of chaotic bureaucracy. Most of the generals Indra summoned to spearhead the Operation refused, saying they did not want to get involved in Punjab. Especially since she was the one citing Bhindranwale could not be brought to the negotiation table. Secondly the extreme step of dispatching more than a hundred men to attack a religious place was highly unnecessary. This was even noted by India's ambassador to Madagascar, who went to meet the militants. Counting more than 200 armed paramilitary personnel ringing Darbar Sahib, he was later to ask why no sniper took Bhindranwale out and removed the brain of the militancy if that was what Indra truly wanted.

Above all he conclusively stated that even the army was against the attack. The media censorship in it's aftermath, planned prior, would only aggravate matters further. To circumvent such an obstacle Indra finally selected specific regiments, such as the Bihar Regiment, the Madras Regiment and the Assam Regiment. Even then select battalions and divisions were chosen, whose silence and loyalty could be ensured.

[Genie Singh]

Try getting General V.K. Singh's (prior chief of army before General Bikramjit Singh) autobiography. He's devoted a whole section to mismanaged and unnecessary Indian military operations. Operation Bluestar is his main hen. He classifies it as being unnecessary, and once executed, heavily mismanaged. His contempt for Brar is basically infectious, whereas General Sundarji's character is overtly murdered. In the aftermath of his sacking, he leaked private information withheld by the army about many of it's operations. When questioned on Operation Bluestar, especially seeing his successor was a Sikh, he is known to have described a mismanaged scene of chaotic bureaucracy. Most of the generals Indra summoned to spearhead the Operation refused, saying they did not want to get involved in Punjab. Especially since she was the one citing Bhindranwale could not be brought to the negotiation table. Secondly the extreme step of dispatching more than a hundred men to attack a religious place was highly unnecessary. This was even noted by India's ambassador to Madagascar, who went to meet the militants. Counting more than 200 armed paramilitary personnel ringing Darbar Sahib, he was later to ask why no sniper took Bhindranwale out and removed the brain of the militancy if that was what Indra truly wanted.

Above all he conclusively stated that even the army was against the attack. The media censorship in it's aftermath, planned prior, would only aggravate matters further. To circumvent such an obstacle Indra finally selected specific regiments, such as the Bihar Regiment, the Madras Regiment and the Assam Regiment. Even then select battalions and divisions were chosen, whose silence and loyalty could be ensured.

I think the problem of using a sniper on bhindranwale is getting a post to actually aim at him from, there would have not been much time for that person to easily escape. To get an aim into the akal takht or dabar sahib requires a high post. Had it been a sniper from a helicopter or aeroplane, the stability is a question and it's likely bhindranwale would have moved out of the way. Also shooting someone isn't a guarantee that person is dead, had he been merely injured his men would have taken him forth for treatment and the issue would have grown. Having watched another documentary it seems much of the discrimination grew after the akali dal demanded autonomy for punjab- apparently indira gandhi's resolve for this was to marginalize sikhs, perhaps in attempts to quiet them down.

Also taking out the brain of the operation doesn't work let's go with previous scenarios where the main leader has been taken out in most historical movements usually they are replaced by someone else, maybe the second in command. Bhindranwale could have been replaced maybe by people who went to form insurgent groups or a student of his. That is the view point the strategy to take him out. Sher's option of just dropping a bomb would have had huge consequences. Inclusive of radiation poisoning to Hindus surrounding the complex.

Thanks for the suggestion I will try and get that book. By the way do you know the name of the book which khushwant dedicates on this subject. Is there a book which khushwant uses his famous phrase " He fought back like a tiger"?

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

I think the problem of using a sniper on bhindranwale is getting a post to actually aim at him from, there would have not been much time for that person to easily escape. To get an aim into the akal takht or dabar sahib requires a high post. Had it been a sniper from a helicopter or aeroplane, the stability is a question and it's likely bhindranwale would have moved out of the way. Also shooting someone isn't a guarantee that person is dead, had he been merely injured his men would have taken him forth for treatment and the issue would have grown. Having watched another documentary it seems much of the discrimination grew after the akali dal demanded autonomy for punjab- apparently indira gandhi's resolve for this was to marginalize sikhs, perhaps in attempts to quiet them down.

Also taking out the brain of the operation doesn't work let's go with previous scenarios where the main leader has been taken out in most historical movements usually they are replaced by someone else, maybe the second in command. Bhindranwale could have been replaced maybe by people who went to form insurgent groups or a student of his. That is the view point the strategy to take him out. Sher's option of just dropping a bomb would have had huge consequences. Inclusive of radiation poisoning to Hindus surrounding the complex.

Thanks for the suggestion I will try and get that book. By the way do you know the name of the book which khushwant dedicates on this subject. Is there a book which khushwant uses his famous phrase " He fought back like a tiger"?

I have heard an interview where Khushwant says that, but if were to employ military perceptions a sniper and a swift follow up offensive would have been extremely efficient. Yet if we look at the motive, there was really nothing strong which commandeered such an attack in the first place. But here's something I got from the times of India. Take a look at it.

Indira Gandhi's Generals Quibble Publicly, Calling Each Other Liars & Incompetents

VIKRAM JIT SINGH

At a time when details about Britain's role in Indira Gandhi's criminal actions in 1984 are coming out, two top field commanders of the Indian Army at Amritsar during the operation have very contrasting views on the merits of the assault that led to heavy casualties.

Maj Gen Jamwal, who commanded the 15 Infantry Division headquartered at Amritsar, has held that the operation was not only "badly-planned'' but suffered from the fatal error of launching a "frontal assault that went straight into the muzzle of the Sikh resistance fighters".

Now settled in Jammu, Maj Gen Jamwal says that revelations of the British Special Air Service being involved in Bluestar was "absolute bunk". Delving on the operation, Maj Gen Jamwal said: "The wrong direction of the assault planned by Maj Gen Brar was exposed when the 10 Guards declared over the radio that they could not move forward at all. If I had my way, we should have gone in for attack from the West."

On the other hand, Brar, who was promoted to Lt Gen for his ignominy, said from Mumbai: "Maj Gen Jamwal is a bitter, jealous man. His division was in Amritsar and he should have been given the task on the Golden Temple but I was given the responsibility. His men knew the Temple whereas we had to plan everything from scratch as we were inducted from Meerut. He is upset about that.''

Asked about the specific instances of failure detailed by Maj Gen Jamwal, Brar said: "I don't want to comment beyond that. There is obviously something lacking in Maj Gen Jamwal that he did not make it beyond Maj Gen rank.''

Maj Gen Jamwal, whose division was tasked to guard the borders against a Pakistani Army incursion, states that Maj Gen Brar was going in to attack without any reserves. "I told Lt Gen Dyal this and on that, two companies from my division were ordered to be placed under Maj Gen Brar, who was commanding the 9 Infantry Division,'' states Maj Gen Jamwal, whose 15 Division was primarily tasked to guard the border against a Pakistani Army incursion.

Interestingly, both the generals were together as young officers after being commissioned into the 1 Maratha Light Infantry. It was a badly and hastily planned and executed operation on the Golden Temple.

"I told Maj Gen Brar this before the operation commenced but he told me that he had been given direct orders by Lt Gen K. Sundarji, the then Western Army Commander. I told Maj Gen Brar that when things will go wrong, it will be your neck in the noose not that of Lt Gen Sundarji's,'' Maj Gen Jamwal said.

When the operation got bogged down during the early hours of June 6, Maj Gen Jamwal reveals that Maj Gen Brar was in a panic and his voice over the radio betrayed that. Brar had forgotten there were reserves available. He was heard over the radio to the 10 Guards saying 'what should I do ... get something done'.

When reminded of the reserves available on the radio by then Deputy GOC, 15 Division, Col. Dewan, Maj Gen Brar ordered the reserves into battle, which were two companies of the 9 Garhwal Rifles. The reserves played a decisive role,'' he said.

Maj Gen Jamwal reveals that he ordered his troops to fire an anti-tank shell into a wall of the Akal Takth but the misdirected shell hit the Sikh Reference Library and it burst into flames. Delving further into Maj Gen Brar's revelation that 20 shells were fired from tanks onto the Akal Takht, Maj Gen Jamwal reveals that some of these shells overshot and landed in areas behind the Golden Temple including their own army positions.

Maj Gen Jamwal was posted out of Amritsar after the operation and went on to command the Delhi Area. He testified in 2005 before the Nanavati Commission probing the anti-Sikh pogrom that the Union Home Minister had not given him directions to move the Army into the areas hit by the pogroms of Delhi till the evening of November 1, 1984.

Maj Gen Jamwal confirmed that a section of troops of 26 Madras had indulged in looting in the Golden Temple and that the battalion's Commanding Officer had been severely admonished by him and ordered to return the goods. He also brings out that after the operation, two Indian Army officers of the rank of Maj Gen visited him and asked him to liquidate the surrendered militants in the custody of 15 Division, to which Maj Gen Jamwal offered a blunt rejection. I told them I am a general of the Indian Army, not a butcher,'' said Maj Gen Jamwal.

No post-operation assessment / discussion in the higher command, action taken report or inquiry was undertaken on Bluestar, reveals Maj Gen Jamwal.

[Courtesy: Times of India.]

January 16, 2014

[Genie Singh]

I have heard an interview where Khushwant says that, but if were to employ military perceptions a sniper and a swift follow up offensive would have been extremely efficient. Yet if we look at the motive, there was really nothing strong which commandeered such an attack in the first place. But here's something I got from the times of India. Take a look at it.

Indira Gandhi's Generals Quibble Publicly, Calling Each Other Liars & Incompetents

Check out this video; there wouldn't have been a suitable post to sniper him from, could you suggest the best point? Ramgharia bunga tower?- Bhindranwales men surrounded that area who were armed. Wouldn't they have been suspected by smuggling in the sniper unless it was done in a clever manner. What about the sniper escaping without being killed. But bhindranwales men would have seen that. It reminds me of the days of playing Golden Eye on the N64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhP1aZNqM3Y

Edited January 23, 2014 by JatherdarSahib

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Check out this video; there wouldn't have been a suitable post to sniper him from, could you suggest the best point? Ramgharia bunga tower?- Bhindranwales men surrounded that area who were armed. Wouldn't they have been suspected by smuggling in the sniper unless it was done in a clever manner. What about the sniper escaping without being killed. But bhindranwales men would have seen that. It reminds me of the days of playing Golden Eye on the N64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhP1aZNqM3Y

Each case is always bound to be different.

[Matheen]

Why did the army attack many other Gurudware as well?

Sant Ji, like Sikhs in general, was a thorn in the side of a corrupt government. Indira Gandhi openly called Sikhs 'dogs' and thought we don't deserve any of the legitimate requests that were being made, which didn't help matters.

The best books on the topic are by Cynthia Mahmood and 'The Gallant Defender' by retired (Hindu) magistrate A.R. Darshi.

[Genie Singh]

Why did the army attack many other Gurudware as well?

Sant Ji, like Sikhs in general, was a thorn in the side of a corrupt government. Indira Gandhi openly called Sikhs 'dogs' and thought we don't deserve any of the legitimate requests that were being made, which didn't help matters.

The best books on the topic are by Cynthia Mahmood and 'The Gallant Defender' by retired (Hindu) magistrate A.R. Darshi.

The claim of the Indian government is the others were suspected as bases for Bhindranwale's men so the insurgent militants were being flushed out from inhabiting complexes which are meant for public use. It seems Bhindranwale's supporters are said to have increased after people felt discriminated after indira gandhi issued the police to search and stop Sikhs more after the akali dal had protested for punjab's autonomy. Which led to bhindranwale's sympathisers and supporters to grow. I think had that been the case back then. I think there is a common tone which does exist among some indian personal to hold a prejudice towards sikhs as being terrorists. But I think if we take a hard tone to it then that sentiment will increase if we take a tone of what we are truly like as human beings then that human to human connection being formed can erase the harshness in others hearts.

Going with Sher's original comment about it, I think there is some weight to it. If the indian government was truly acting in Indira Gandhis time in the hands of right wing fanatic hindu parties. Why not just nuke all of the gurdwaras? Fear of revenge to drive bigger issues, wasn't that going to happen? Maybe people feel Bhindranwale did a good job of holding his own and the impact of bluestar is exaggerated by the indian government, and brar's besti was done by masses of his men being killed to the point that the indian government to avoid it's besti took all those bodies and buried/cremated them in deserts.

I can't see still the case for defining bhindranwale as a terrorist. Let's say he was armed (he had a license for it and it's legal just like in america), let's say he put up a few sand bags, let's say his men were armed, let's say he did kill people like the newspaper editor and nirankari baba/sant/whatever that god man was - how does all of this define him to be a terrorist, when terrorism is by definition the use of violence to spread an ideology? Was it him taken upon his self to enforce blasphemy laws to beat or kill anyone who harmed or insulted guru granth sahib or gutkas? Was it the claim of his take on killing those amritdhari sikhs who supposedly drink? Was it his take on cutting the head of a smoker in darbar sahib? Perhaps he did act like khoemini issuing fatwas on people- But what was it that put the nail in the coffin? - Sher do you have an answer for this?

[chatanga1]

Also what did Sant Ji do that made the politicans go after him.

Sant Ji was uncompromising in truth.

But why send in the army why make a big scene and draw attention to the event even more. Why didnt they use the local police and why did the army trycutting the food that was going in so everybody had to come out.

Indira was after a blitzkrieg movement, as the lengthier the action at Darbar Sahib, the more restless the populace would be. She wanted to be seen the uncompromising hard leader that india needed.

(bhindranwale mentioned once in a speech that he was the sikh of a true court, the court of god and he was not going to observe a false government of india court-

you live in india dont you? your panjabi cannot be as bad as that, to have misunderstood what he was saying in that video.

Also, if AR Darshi is a Hindu Magistrate, was KPS Gill a Sikh police officer? Cynthia a Christian writer?

The inference is that all three would be biased in favour of their own community's but that Drashi actually had the courage to write the truth.

He isn't the only one, Brahma Chellany wrote exactly what he had seen during OB, and he was prosecuted for waging war against the state.

Sher do you have an answer for this?

of course he has an answer for this. Will it be correct/truthful? No.

[Jonny101]

Sant Ji was uncompromising in truth.

Indira was after a blitzkrieg movement, as the lengthier the action at Darbar Sahib, the more restless the populace would be. She wanted to be seen the uncompromising hard leader that india needed.

you live in india dont you? your panjabi cannot be as bad as that, to have misunderstood what he was saying in that video.

The inference is that all three would be biased in favour of their own community's but that Drashi actually had the courage to write the truth.

He isn't the only one, Brahma Chellany wrote exactly what he had seen during OB, and he was prosecuted for waging war against the state.

of course he has an answer for this. Will it be correct/truthful? No.

That's exactly why the Indian government enforced media black out from Punjab. Unlike other conflicts worldwide, atleast the media is allowed to observe the event and report it. But operation blue star was such an event that the government had prevented both national and international media from observing the event as it took place. Brahma Chellany was one of the few reporters who hid himself and reported the death and destruction caused by the Indian army and for that he was charged with waging war against India. When the governments does a media black out, one must question their government 'WHY?' unfortunately no one in India did that, to this day they are just parroting the Indian government's version of the conflict.

Brave Hindus like Swami Subramanian, Gen Sinha, Darshi were brave enough to tell the truth. For that they have my respect

Edited January 23, 2014 by Jonny101

[Genie Singh]

That's exactly why the Indian government enforced media black out from Punjab. Unlike other conflicts worldwide, atleast the media is allowed to observe the event and report it. But operation blue star was such an event that the government had prevented both national and international media from observing the event as it took place. Brahma Chellany was one of the few reporters who hid himself and reported the death and destruction caused by the Indian army and for that he was charged with waging war against India. When the governments does a media black out, one must question their government 'WHY?' unfortunately no one in India did that, to this day they are just parroting the Indian government's version of the conflict.

Brave Hindus like Swami Subramanian, Gen Sinha, Darshi were brave enough to tell the truth. For that they have my respect

The media blackout apparently is referenced in the letters coming out from the british government it appears. Indira Gandhi felt that with media transparency the whole issue would get out of control and a swift flush of the militants would end the situation. It appears Sinha feels that the operation should have had total media transparency so that there would have been no doubt of misplay of the government of a conspiracy to destroy and disrespect a religious place. General Sinha still feels the event should have happened, but differently.

[Jonny101]

The media blackout apparently is referenced in the letters coming out from the british government it appears. Indira Gandhi felt that with media transparency the whole issue would get out of control and a swift flush of the militants would end the situation. It appears Sinha feels that the operation should have had total media transparency so that there would have been no doubt of misplay of the government of a conspiracy to destroy and disrespect a religious place. General Sinha still feels the event should have happened, but differently.

Gen Sinha did not say it should have happened, but only that the conflict could have been resolve with other means. Furthur more, he exposes the lies of the Indian government that OBS was a last resort. He did not want to carry out this operation because of which he was not given promotion. Indira Gandhi only used yes men for this operation.

The fact that the Indian army and government did not allow media transparency is only because they have something to hide. Had the Indian public been exposed first hand to what really happened, no one would have supported OBS. That's what happened in the Anti Sikh riots. The government could not have a media black out as they did for OBS, and to this day 99% of Hindus who saw first hand everything because of media transparency are against the congress role in killing Sikhs.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Jonny101

[Guest]

jathedar sahib jeyo, i have answers to all your questions and much more but the problem is i am muzzled.

There is no room for robust discussion here. I have been asked to leave the holy cows alone.

We have enough robust discussion in the past to the most controversial topics from both sides one can imagine but those were done in civil manner without name calling each other, and following forum rules closely... check our archives- http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/4206-akaal-takth-as-fortress/,

[Guest]

You are on qc to ensure quality of the forum- name calling, sikh shahid attacks.You can disagree with their actions here but do so in constructive, assertive manner.

[chatanga1]

jathedar sahib jeyo, i have answers to all your questions and much more but the problem is i am muzzled.

There is no room for robust discussion here. I have been asked to leave the holy cows alone.

feral dogs are best muzzled. two-faced dogs as well, I didnt see you complain when your brilliant forum banned me, all I wanted to do was engage in robust discussion.

[Genie Singh]

feral dogs are best muzzled. two-faced dogs as well, I didnt see you complain when your brilliant forum banned me, all I wanted to do was engage in robust discussion.

It wasn't that long ago when we were called dogs by the mughal empire as segs until our character later turned him around to accept us as lions and the rulers of punjab.

Edited January 24, 2014 by JatherdarSahib