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namdhari555

Amritsar Mrs. Gandhi's Last Battle By Mark Tully

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Jathedar sahib, children and children. why classify them as "daughters" and "sons"? this mindset is one of the major reasons behind such a high rate of female foeticide among the Punjab agrarian communities (dominated by Jats of course) as they don't want their small fields to be divided further.

It is sexist as a daughter is being denied a right in her ancestral property because of her gender. Also discriminatory as not all of the daughters get married.

if i am not wrong a father (or mother) cannot deny a daughter her share in the property if the father has inherited it from his forefathers. About the assets accumulated by father, he can disown his daughter but would need really good reason to do so. I can be wrong about this understanding of inheritance law.

You totally dont understnad indian culture evidenced by the turd of a post you have written.

female infanticide is more common amongst the urban Punjabi Hindus than the rural Sikhs. Where as Sikhs still have 2-3 children average, the urban Punjabi Hindus will rarely even have 2 children being satisfied with only 1 child. As a result of this 1 child policy of the urban Punjabi Hindus has resulted in a very disturbing trend of parents being very selective about only wanting male children because of which the female fetus is aborted while in the womb.

the haryanvis are even worse.

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Himachal has the first right over the rivers which either originate in that state or get bulk of their water from himachali glaciers. Himachal has NEVER tried to blackmail Punjab or ask for royalty for the waters generated in Himachal. Punjab on the other hand has abrogated all water treaties it has with other states and has (Amrinder Singh) suggested that it might ask for royalty for "its waters". Imagine how ballistic Sikhs would go for if Himachal asked for royalty for "its waters" or decided to sell "its waters" to the other states

Turd, himachal is not an agrarian state, nor do they need the water, or want it.

what would happen if they didnt let one drop of water through to Panjab (which HP has every right to), they would all DROWN!.

They are so glad to see the monsoon waters rush through to Panjab causing destruction, whilst causing minimal casualties in HP.

And FYI, the waters of Panjab, start even further back than HP, in India, so those countries would have more rights than Himachal.

Im sure Sikhs would go ballistic. The govt would do the same as well.

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Turd, himachal is not an agrarian state, nor do they need the water, or want it.

what would happen if they didnt let one drop of water through to Panjab (which HP has every right to), they would all DROWN!.

They are so glad to see the monsoon waters rush through to Panjab causing destruction, whilst causing minimal casualties in HP.

And FYI, the waters of Panjab, start even further back than HP, in India, so those countries would have more rights than Himachal.

Im sure Sikhs would go ballistic. The govt would do the same as well.

First of all, we need to understand what is the water issue. Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal and Punjab are all riparian states to which the rivers flow through or which have water under it's land. Punjab is not taking water from Himachal just as Himachal is not taking water from J&K. The water of these three states belongs to these three riparian state's land as it naturally flows there. Haryana and Rajasthan on the other hand are not riparian states, they are getting water directly from Punjab at Punjab's expense and this is against national and international riparian laws.

Capt's statement was a political stunt, nothing more. He only made that statement for the sake of opposing the Akalis who had made a statement earlier that Punjab's waters which are it's natural resource are illegally being given for free to other (non riparian) states and as a natural resource Punjab deserves royalties. This is the same Capt who tore the unlawful treaty of Punjab's waters going to Haryana for free when he was in power and was applauded by Punjabis worldwide.

The fact that Sher here who himself is a Punjabi, yet is supportive of Punjab's waters being exploited by non riparian states shows exactly the kind of Hindus who had disowned their own mother tongue for a language which was not even theirs. He like other urban Punjabi Hindus only do this to oppose the Sikhs, there is no other reason for a community to become sellouts and be disloyal to their own state. It is interesting to note that no other Hindu in any other state shows such disloyalty to their own state only the urban Punjabi Hindus have this trait.

Edited by Jonny101

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First of all, we need to understand what is the water issue. Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal and Punjab are all riparian states to which the rivers flow through or which have water under it's land. Punjab is not taking water from Himachal just as Himachal is not taking water from J&K. The water of these three states belongs to these three riparian state's land as it naturally flows there. Haryana and Rajasthan on the other hand are not riparian states, they are getting water directly from Punjab at Punjab's expense and this is against national and international riparian laws.

Capt's statement was a political stunt, nothing more. He only made that statement for the sake of opposing the Akalis who had made a statement earlier that Punjab's waters which are it's natural resource are illegally being given for free to other (non riparian) states and as a natural resource Punjab deserves royalties. This is the same Capt who tore the unlawful treaty of Punjab's waters going to Haryana for free when he was in power and was applauded by Punjabis worldwide.

The fact that Sher here who himself is a Punjabi, yet is supportive of Punjab's waters being exploited by non riparian states shows exactly the kind of Hindus who had disowned their own mother tongue for a language which was not even theirs. He like other urban Punjabi Hindus only do this to oppose the Sikhs, there is no other reason for a community to become sellouts and be disloyal to their own state. It is interesting to note that no other Hindu in any other state shows such disloyalty to their own state only the urban Punjabi Hindus have this trait.

The baiyaahs are still learning the ways of punjab like it's water, history shows there was more fertility in some of the other parts of india before certain peoples kulaa destroyed them with a poor understanding of agriculture.

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female infanticide is more common amongst the urban Punjabi Hindus than the rural Sikhs. Where as Sikhs still have 2-3 children average, the urban Punjabi Hindus will rarely even have 2 children being satisfied with only 1 child. As a result of this 1 child policy of the urban Punjabi Hindus has resulted in a very disturbing trend of parents being very selective about only wanting male children because of which the female fetus is aborted while in the womb.

Once again Jonny, you are absolutely wrong!

There are scores of research papers on Punjab's rural communities (led by Jats), to put it bluntly, killing their daughters. Nothing new, its a centuries old trend. I do not say anything unless i have some evidence and here goes one 100 page report blasting your argument:

http://ncw.nic.in/pdfReports/IDENTIFYING%20AND%20CONTROLLING%20FEMALE%20FOETICIDE%20-%20PDF%20FORMAT.pdf

To quote from the report:

IDENTIFYING AND CONTROLLING FEMALE FOETICID AND INFANTICIDE
IN PUNJAB

"Peasant societies, as in Punjab, are highly patriarchal and have a strong male child
preference. In these societies patriarchy dictates its ascendancy in all spheres of socio-
economic and political life. Power structures emanating from land control percolate to all
social activity."
If you have any research data to prove your point, PLEASE share

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Once again Jonny, you are absolutely wrong!

There are scores of research papers on Punjab's rural communities (led by Jats), to put it bluntly, killing their daughters. Nothing new, its a centuries old trend. I do not say anything unless i have some evidence and here goes one 100 page report blasting your argument:

http://ncw.nic.in/pdfReports/IDENTIFYING%20AND%20CONTROLLING%20FEMALE%20FOETICIDE%20-%20PDF%20FORMAT.pdf

To quote from the report:

IDENTIFYING AND CONTROLLING FEMALE FOETICID AND INFANTICIDE
IN PUNJAB

"Peasant societies, as in Punjab, are highly patriarchal and have a strong male child
preference. In these societies patriarchy dictates its ascendancy in all spheres of socio-
economic and political life. Power structures emanating from land control percolate to all
social activity."
If you have any research data to prove your point, PLEASE share

Man you have no idea. I think maybe you have never been to punjab and so you get all you knowledge about these issues from google. Female infanticide is much more common amongst the urban people of Punjab who happen to be Hindus than it is amongst the rural people which is dominated by the Sikhs.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article398285.ece

“Over a decade ago, I couldn't save that infant and ever since I try to speak for the girls who never lived,” said Dr. Kaur, who has been awarded by numerous governments across the globe for her work in eradicating the evil.

Rampant female foeticide, the shameful act of selectively aborting the female foetus due to non-preference, continues to push the sex ratio of Punjab against females; unfortunately, the evil is more prevalent among the educated, the rich and the urban bred.

The 2006 National Family Health Survey shows that prosperity does little to curb the evil as Punjab's overall sex ratio at birth (considered a more accurate indicator of female foeticide) was 776 against 793 in 2001. In urban areas, it goes further down to 761:1,000. “The data clearly contradicts the belief that people don't want daughters only due to the expense of dowry and marriage, the practice is more popular amongst the prosperous urban population who commit the crime to avoid perceived social disgrace of not having a son and escaping property division,” said Parveen Singhal, retired professor, who continues to work on the issue.

“My study on girl students of higher secondary schools in urban areas revealed that 78.8 per cent did not want to give birth to a girl child. I was shocked to find that educated girls from urban areas can discriminate against their own kind. They cited the deplorable condition of their mothers and restriction imposed on girls from family as the main reason,”

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Man you have no idea. I think maybe you have never been to punjab and so you get all you knowledge about these issues from google. Female infanticide is much more common amongst the urban people of Punjab who happen to be Hindus than it is amongst the rural people which is dominated by the Sikhs.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article398285.ece

“Over a decade ago, I couldn't save that infant and ever since I try to speak for the girls who never lived,” said Dr. Kaur, who has been awarded by numerous governments across the globe for her work in eradicating the evil.

Rampant female foeticide, the shameful act of selectively aborting the female foetus due to non-preference, continues to push the sex ratio of Punjab against females; unfortunately, the evil is more prevalent among the educated, the rich and the urban bred.

The 2006 National Family Health Survey shows that prosperity does little to curb the evil as Punjab's overall sex ratio at birth (considered a more accurate indicator of female foeticide) was 776 against 793 in 2001. In urban areas, it goes further down to 761:1,000. “The data clearly contradicts the belief that people don't want daughters only due to the expense of dowry and marriage, the practice is more popular amongst the prosperous urban population who commit the crime to avoid perceived social disgrace of not having a son and escaping property division,” said Parveen Singhal, retired professor, who continues to work on the issue.

“My study on girl students of higher secondary schools in urban areas revealed that 78.8 per cent did not want to give birth to a girl child. I was shocked to find that educated girls from urban areas can discriminate against their own kind. They cited the deplorable condition of their mothers and restriction imposed on girls from family as the main reason,”

You are not getting the point here. the population whom you call Punjabi Hindus (Brahmin, Khatri (inc Rajputs for convenience sake)and Banias are no more than 15% of the Punjab population. whatever they do, they cannot influence the birthrates in Punjab much.

You should also keep few imp points in your mind - 62 % of the punjab pop lives in the villages

the major female foeticide problem is in the agrarian communities where ever they live;

female foeticide much higher in Sikh majority districts (Fatehgarh sahib the worst in india if i am not wrong, Taran taran not far behind);

Hindu (non-Sikh) majority or dominated districts in Doaba have the best sex ratios Hoshiarpur is (961) in fact OVER the national average !!

The cities which are hub of the industrial activity (Ludhiana) have the bad sex ratio because of the migrant labour.

There is problem in sikh community killing their daughters from Gurus' days; even Singh sabhaites started a movement against Kurimars (killers of the daughters)

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You are not getting the point here. the population whom you call Punjabi Hindus (Brahmin, Khatri (inc Rajputs for convenience sake)and Banias are no more than 15% of the Punjab population. whatever they do, they cannot influence the birthrates in Punjab much.

You should also keep few imp points in your mind - 62 % of the punjab pop lives in the villages

the major female foeticide problem is in the agrarian communities where ever they live;

female foeticide much higher in Sikh majority districts (Fatehgarh sahib the worst in india if i am not wrong, Taran taran not far behind);

Hindu (non-Sikh) majority or dominated districts in Doaba have the best sex ratios Hoshiarpur is (961) in fact OVER the national average !!

The cities which are hub of the industrial activity (Ludhiana) have the bad sex ratio because of the migrant labour.

There is problem in sikh community killing their daughters from Gurus' days; even Singh sabhaites started a movement against Kurimars (killers of the daughters)

They are 15% but dominate Punjab's urban population where they dominate in every sense, and read the article which says the Urban people who are the wealthiest and most educated do the most female infanticide. So there is no doubt it is the Urban Hindus who commit this evil act

And Doaba is Hindu majority not because of the Urban Hindus. It is majority because of the Chamar community who declare themselves as Hindus. Nice try

Edited by Jonny101

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They are 15% but they are majority of Punjab's urban population where they dominate in every sense. Nice try

nice commonsense you mean? 15% cannot influence the sex ratios of 85% much. Doaba region, where they are concentrated, the sex ratio is higher than the rest of India! Sikh majority districts like fatehgarh sahib taran taran really sad story.

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nice commonsense you mean? 15% cannot influence the sex ratios of 85% much. Doaba region, where they are concentrated, the sex ratio is higher than the rest of India! Sikh majority districts like fatehgarh sahib taran taran really sad story.

I never said rural people don't do female infanticide. Yes they do, and it's unfortunate that they do. But statistically Punjabi urban Hindus have a higher rate of female infanticide.

So before you try to touch a topic perhaps you should first try to see if your own community is innocent of the crime or not. When you try to spit at the moon, the spit will only end up landing on your own face as it did now.

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The Punjabi Hindu sprouts half truths and propaganda and has little facts to back these up.

The Punjabi urban HIndu is the one who started the trend with selective sex abortions. The clinics that doted the cities then started to appear in the small towns and from there the rural people started to take part in these disgusting acts.

The Punjabi Hindus have always had a low sex ratio compared to the Sikhs. These are from the censuses of various years-;

1971 --------1981 --------- 1991 -------- 2001

Sikhs -------865----------882 ------------ 891 ----------896

Hindus ------- 863 ----------873------------ 867 ----------845

Our Hindu Punjabi friend seems to think that just because the Hindu majority districts have a higher gender ratio then it means that Hindus don't have sex selective abortions. It is actually the higher sex ratios in Sikhs that give these districts such high gender ratios.

Here are the figures for the Hindu majority districts in 2001

Gurdaspur Sikhs 906 (Rural 910 -- Urban 886 ) Hindus 877 (Rural 889 -- Urban 865)

Jalandhar Sikhs 929 (Rural 939 - Urban 906) Hindus 864 (Rural 886 -- Urban 847)

Hoshiarpur Sikhs 960 (Rural 963 -- Urban 936) Hindus 923 (Rural 936 -- Urban 878)

In fact the rural areas of these districts the Sikhs have a higher gender ratio than the Hindus. The Hindu Punjabi is plying propaganda that Jats are killing their daughters and the Banias of urban Punjab are not aborting their daughters. But the figures above show a different picture.

He also makes a big deal about Fatehgarh Sahib having a very low sex ratio. But it is the Hindus in that district having a low sex ratio that brings the whole district down to last in the sex ratio for Punjab.

Fatehgarh Sahib Sikhs 881 Hindus 774

Lying is a Hindu Punjabi trait especially when it comes trying to malign Sikhs.

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The Punjabi Hindu sprouts half truths and propaganda and has little facts to back these up.

The Punjabi urban HIndu is the one who started the trend with selective sex abortions. The clinics that doted the cities then started to appear in the small towns and from there the rural people started to take part in these disgusting acts.

The Punjabi Hindus have always had a low sex ratio compared to the Sikhs. These are from the censuses of various years-;

1971 --------1981 --------- 1991 -------- 2001

Sikhs -------865----------882 ------------ 891 ----------896

Hindus ------- 863 ----------873------------ 867 ----------845

Our Hindu Punjabi friend seems to think that just because the Hindu majority districts have a higher gender ratio then it means that Hindus don't have sex selective abortions. It is actually the higher sex ratios in Sikhs that give these districts such high gender ratios.

Here are the figures for the Hindu majority districts in 2001

Gurdaspur Sikhs 906 (Rural 910 -- Urban 886 ) Hindus 877 (Rural 889 -- Urban 865)

Jalandhar Sikhs 929 (Rural 939 - Urban 906) Hindus 864 (Rural 886 -- Urban 847)

Hoshiarpur Sikhs 960 (Rural 963 -- Urban 936) Hindus 923 (Rural 936 -- Urban 878)

In fact the rural areas of these districts the Sikhs have a higher gender ratio than the Hindus. The Hindu Punjabi is plying propaganda that Jats are killing their daughters and the Banias of urban Punjab are not aborting their daughters. But the figures above show a different picture.

He also makes a big deal about Fatehgarh Sahib having a very low sex ratio. But it is the Hindus in that district having a low sex ratio that brings the whole district down to last in the sex ratio for Punjab.

Fatehgarh Sahib Sikhs 881 Hindus 774

Lying is a Hindu Punjabi trait especially when it comes trying to malign Sikhs.

interesting figures. would you please give a source of this research please?

i have 2011 figures in front of me.

http://censusindia.gov.in/2011-prov-results/prov_data_products_punjab.html

They tell a very diff story.

Hoshiarpur, Ropar, jalandhar S Bhagat S Nagar (Nawanshahr) ...all showing very healthy sex ratios while Bhatinda, fatehgarh Sahib, Ludhiana Barnala etc. around 875 :(

Edited by Sher

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Pretty pathetic argument really.....

Whose worse at female foeticide.

You can tell people here don't really care about the issue in itself.

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Pretty pathetic argument really.....

Whose worse at female foeticide.

You can tell people here don't really care about the issue in itself.

Veere, the point we are making here is, Sher trying to put us Sikhs down for a crime that his people are even worse at. It's like the pot calling the kettle black except that his community tip the scale of balance on this one. He did the same thing on a number of other issues as well.

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Tony nailed it. The media in Punjab which is largely controlled by the urban Hindus has deliberately created an image of female infanticide as a Sikh problem. But statistics show they are the ones who are the biggest perpetrators of this Maha Paap, they are the ones who started this trend and Sikhs began to copy. Even now it is Sikh singers, Sikh media, Sikh theologians and Sikh social workers who are leading the fight against female infanticide. Unfortunately the huge selective abortion problem amongst the urban Hindus is still keeping Punjab behind the rest of India in the sex ratio statistics. May Vaheguru give some Sumat to the Punjabi Hindus to stop this Paap against their daughters.

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interesting figures. would you please give a source of this research please?

i have 2011 figures in front of me.

http://censusindia.gov.in/2011-prov-results/prov_data_products_punjab.html

They tell a very diff story.

Hoshiarpur, Ropar, jalandhar S Bhagat S Nagar (Nawanshahr) ...all showing very healthy sex ratios while Bhatinda, fatehgarh Sahib, Ludhiana Barnala etc. around 875 :(

As it states in my post, there figures are from the censuses of various years. It's called original research and not the Hindu propaganda that you are sprouting.

The 2011 census is of no use to the debate we are having because it has not published the figures for religion yet. The figures are only available for the censuses prior to 2001. Until those figures are available we can only use the 2001 census to debate the points you raised.

Your argument that Sikhs are the biggest Kurimars in Punjab has been proven false.

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Pretty pathetic argument really.....

Whose worse at female foeticide.

You can tell people here don't really care about the issue in itself.

I am not surprised at your reaction. You like nothing more than trashing Jats and as the Hindu version of you in our friend Sher also like to bash the Jats so you do not like it when statistics are produced which give a lie to your prejudices. Rural Punjab is not dominated by Jats aborting their daughters one second and raping a Dalit girl the next, get over it!

Edited by tonyhp32

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They are 15% but dominate Punjab's urban population where they dominate in every sense, and read the article which says the Urban people who are the wealthiest and most educated do the most female infanticide. So there is no doubt it is the Urban Hindus who commit this evil act

And Doaba is Hindu majority not because of the Urban Hindus. It is majority because of the Chamar community who declare themselves as Hindus. Nice try

You are very confused Mr hatred Personified.

on one hand you say PHs birthrate is v low and they would go extinct, on the other hand you blame them for the pathetic sex ratio of the whole state! They dominate Punjab's urban population in every sense..but what that has got to do with other communities' birthrates/sex ratios? are you suggesting...hmm i hope you are not.

And Doaba is... read my comment again Einstein. I wrote "non-Sikhs" for the Punjabi population classified as Hindus.

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I am not surprised at your reaction. You like nothing more than trashing Jats and as the Hindu version of you in our friend Sher also like to bash the Jats so you do not like it when statistics are produced which give a lie to your prejudices. Rural Punjab is not dominated by Jats aborting their daughters one second and raping a Dalit girl the next, get over it!

Jat ruled Panjab is still a cesspit that all and sundry are trying to escape.....which says it all.

Plus you are the ignorant peasant version of Sher, who (take note!) also thinks his own community are something special whilst curiously having some sort of deeply ingrained victim complex; both of you personally perfectly incapable of any honest reflection on your own jaats kartootaan to extremes. Truth is that both Panjabi Hindus and Jats behave like low life today - all you and Sher types have left is petty arguments about who is actually lower. Pretty pathetic.

Jats complaining about other people oppressing and playing low life politics is comical and sad to the extreme. You seem to be in some sort of permanent delusion and denial about your own community........just like Sher, who you ironically complain about so much.

You're both opposite sides to the same ugly coin.

Carry on with your babyish arguments.

Edited by dalsingh101

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Jat ruled Panjab is still a cesspit that all and sundry are trying to escape.....which says it all.

Plus you are the ignorant peasant version of Sher, who (take note!) also thinks his own community are something special whilst curiously having some sort of deeply ingrained victim complex; both of you personally perfectly incapable of any honest reflection on your own jaats kartootaan to extremes. Truth is that both Panjabi Hindus and Jats behave like low life today - all you and Sher types have left is petty arguments about who is actually lower. Pretty pathetic.

Jats complaining about other people oppressing and playing low life politics is comical and sad to the extreme. You seem to be in some sort of permanent delusion and denial about your own community........just like Sher, who you ironically complain about so much.

You're both opposite sides to the same ugly coin.

Carry on with your babyish arguments.

dalsingh i take your criticism constructively. i agree, nothing could be gained from such childish arguments where even the well-established facts are being denied. as far as "my" community's kartootan are concerned, i have never defended the mega kartoot of some of the (self-appointed) community leaders in denying punjabi as their mother tongue. if PHs have done any other such kartoot, i would like to know.

while PHs disowned their mother tongue, the radicals in sikhs have disowned the mother herself and chopped her into three pieces for their sectarian agenda.

My community special? no way, they are average people with average aspirations.

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while PHs disowned their mother tongue, the radicals in sikhs have disowned the mother herself and chopped her into three pieces for their sectarian agenda.

Which mother you are on about? tongue- language, mother india ?

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while PHs disowned their mother tongue, the radicals in sikhs have disowned the mother herself and chopped her into three pieces for their sectarian agenda.

Turd, there is no difference, but I have to admire you speaking the truth on at least this occasion and admitting that the PH's have disowned their mother, but you must remember that it was this disowning that led to the Mother Panjab being chopped up into 3 pieces, so your 2nd half of the sentence is again, a lie.

Telling the truth twice in a row? Not as of yet by our HP brother. But once is a start!

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Jat ruled Panjab is still a cesspit that all and sundry are trying to escape.....which says it all.

Plus you are the ignorant peasant version of Sher, who (take note!) also thinks his own community are something special whilst curiously having some sort of deeply ingrained victim complex; both of you personally perfectly incapable of any honest reflection on your own jaats kartootaan to extremes. Truth is that both Panjabi Hindus and Jats behave like low life today - all you and Sher types have left is petty arguments about who is actually lower. Pretty pathetic.

Jats complaining about other people oppressing and playing low life politics is comical and sad to the extreme. You seem to be in some sort of permanent delusion and denial about your own community........just like Sher, who you ironically complain about so much.

You're both opposite sides to the same ugly coin.

Carry on with your babyish arguments.

Go back to sleep. You have nothing constructive to write but your own prejudices which have been proven false each and every time. You are becoming a parody. You haven't even been to Punjab at least the Hindu Punjab misnamed as Sher appears to know something about Punjab but fools like you who have never been to Punjab suddenly become experts. The statistics prove that the urban Hindus and the urban Sikhs are the worst offenders for aborting females. As many urban Sikhs are tarkhans then you belong to a community which is the worst kurimars in Punjab.

Edited by tonyhp32

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Turd, there is no difference, but I have to admire you speaking the truth on at least this occasion and admitting that the PH's have disowned their mother, but you must remember that it was this disowning that led to the Mother Panjab being chopped up into 3 pieces, so your 2nd half of the sentence is again, a lie.

Telling the truth twice in a row? Not as of yet by our HP brother. But once is a start!

yeah, that's the first time I've heard someone blaming the break up of Punjab on the Sikhs. Only a Punjabi Hindoo would come up with something so delusional. Them becoming sellouts by disowning their own mother tongue is the reason why Punjab was broken into 3 parts by the center. How much more butchering of history is this fellow Sher going to do only God knows

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