Santa Singh's Sociology Phd Thesis

[Guest]

Guys- take it easy- avoid personal attacks. There is always different way to put your point across without insulting each other.

[Sat1176]

Just so the lads don't get upset here is a story in their favour.

My friend Jayant, told me the following incident which I wish to share with you. It has had a deep impact on my thinking.

In the diwali vacation, Jayant and his couple of friends had gone to Delhi. They rented a taxi for local sight-seeing. The driver was an old Sardar, and boys being boys, Jayant and his pals began cracking Sardarji jokes, just to insinuate the old man. But to their surprise, the fellow remained unperturbed. At the end of the sight-seeing, they paid up the hire-charges. The Sardar returned the change.
Moreover, he gave each one of them one rupee extra and said, (in Hindi, of course),''son, since morning you have been telling Sardarji jokes. I listened to them all and let me tell you, some of them were in a very bad taste. Still, I don't mind coz I know that you are young blood and are yet to see the world. But I have just one request. Here I am giving you one rupee each. Give it to the first Sardar beggar that you come across in this city."

Jayant continued," That one rupee coin is still with me. I couldn't find a single Sardar begging on the streets of Delhi."

[Jonny101]

Just so the lads don't get upset here is a story in their favour.

My friend Jayant, told me the following incident which I wish to share with you. It has had a deep impact on my thinking.

In the diwali vacation, Jayant and his couple of friends had gone to Delhi. They rented a taxi for local sight-seeing. The driver was an old Sardar, and boys being boys, Jayant and his pals began cracking Sardarji jokes, just to insinuate the old man. But to their surprise, the fellow remained unperturbed. At the end of the sight-seeing, they paid up the hire-charges. The Sardar returned the change.

Moreover, he gave each one of them one rupee extra and said, (in Hindi, of course),''son, since morning you have been telling Sardarji jokes. I listened to them all and let me tell you, some of them were in a very bad taste. Still, I don't mind coz I know that you are young blood and are yet to see the world. But I have just one request. Here I am giving you one rupee each. Give it to the first Sardar beggar that you come across in this city."

Jayant continued," That one rupee coin is still with me. I couldn't find a single Sardar begging on the streets of Delhi."

[Jonny101]

PS - I should also point out the fact that plenty of Singhs go on like real life clowns regardless of the jokes.

no more or less than anyone else belonging to the Hindu, Muslim or Christian community.

[dalsingh101]

no more or less than anyone else belonging to the Hindu, Muslim or Christian community.

That's arguable.

But with the rise of Hindi movies, it took anti Sikh jokes to a whole new level where Sikhs would be openly mocked as fools for the whole nation to see.

Sad fact is that you do encounter dimbo Sikhs with terrible dress sense all over the place. It would really help us if no apnay didn't physically embody the clown caricature used by Bollywood, but that would asking too much I guess?

That's not to excuse what Bollywood does though. I personally think at least a part of it is revenge for all the pi$$taking portrayals of money lending, snivelling Hindus in Panjabi films back in the day.

Edited February 18, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Lucky]

Listen guys, this whole sardar joke thing got me thinking a little.

Sometimes we don't realize what we are doing or to whom we may be giving some contribution to, until we contemplate it further.

I have also realized that the perception of jokes across the continents changes quite a bit.

Me being a born n bred Brit, and like other Brits on here (Dalsingh & Sat), we have that room for the 'in your face' english humor.

I think the Brits have always poked fun at other races like the Irish jokes, the pakis, the nigger jokes, jew jokes...etc... and you learn to accept them as the way the humor works in UK.

Being over here, on the far west coast, i soon discovered that their sense of humor was much different to mine back in UK.

There are many english jokes that I just couldn't tell to people here, because I learned that they find them offensive, if not directly to themselves, then maybe someone in society.

For eg. if I gave some crazy hardcore Irish joke, then I would probably get the reply that my aunt/uncle/father was irish.......or something along the lines of ''we didn't like that''

On the other hand, I find the American humor very very bland.

I will hear the listeners in stitches and shouting ''awesome'...but to me, it's actually pretty crap !

Maybe, because i have been so accustomed to the extreme, in your face, offensive british jokes ?

But I find no humor in their tv shows and radio, and Dalsingh and Sat won't believe that most americans/canadians won't find ''Only fools and Horses'' as funny as we do !!!!.......I mean, I have never known a single Brit who has never laughed in one of their episodes !

Anyway, getting back to the santa banta sardar issue, I have actually realised the seriousness and motives behind these......

...YES....... i've done an overnight U-turn, and I won't EVER find them amusing again !

Have a look at this video below that first got me thinking. And then I will explain how it influenced me along with the other posts on here-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpYamk8V5Qw&feature=player_detailpage

It's made me feel that if I join the sardar joke humor, then I'm contributing to those dark inner motives of the people behind them.

I'm actually a nobody and have only ever stayed on punjabi land for 3 weeks in my entire life. But my Grandfather was a Sikh army veteran in the 11th regiment of British Army.

He passed away a few years ago, but I still remember the way he used to give me some war descriptions and stories, that would fascinate me as a young kid.

These sikh soldiers ALL wore turbans and refused helmets completely.

He said it was a sign of defeat and anti-khalsa.

I remember my grandfather telling me that the MOST difficult thing wasn't the fighting, but it was being on the battleground with your close friends and colleagues beside you and you witness them getting taken down.

He said it was most difficult to have to just walk beside them while they lay wounded and dead to find safer ground whilst trying to avoid cross-fire.

Some of them had already told him to move on as per their movement strategy before they went down and had insisted not trying to carry their wounded bodies. He said there were moments when he was helpless and just had to move past their bodies with the rest of the force according to command.

I can recall that on two or more occasions, he had encountered this devastating scenario of watching his colleague die and get shot down right beside him.

The only way he could pay some respect and show some dignity was by exchanging the dastaars like a true sardar, during those last few seconds or after they had breathed their last breaths.

He would have shared many days and nights with these fellow soldiers and I know that I wouldn't have the guts to be in such positions.

I was probably around 9 yrs age at the time, but even then I could sense the emotions that he had when picturing these scenes.

To witness these kind of sacrifices changes the complete emotional outlook that the war veterans have.This is why they are so rigid, tough,disciplined, hard natured, but at the same time they have the utmost loyalty.

I'm sure that we can ALL agree that if a sardar veteran like my grandfather was here today, then they would NEVER laugh or find any humour in these jokes.

And I probably feel guilt of shame if my grandfather knew that i was amused with giggles to some sardar degrading jokes.

We should NEVER forget what our forefathers have done to uphold the honour of the dastaar that makes one a sardar.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Lucky

[dalsingh101]

I hear what you are saying Lucky, but I also actually believe that being over-sensitive is a sure fire way of making people go in even harder with the insulting comments. It's like bullying, where the bully thrives off the reaction of the victim.

I actually think that the combination of having thick skin and diffusing other people's attacks by pre-empting them with your own sense of humour (which essentially robs them of their power to insult) and (very importantly) working to limit the amount of emasculated, clown Singhs out there (and I think there are MANY) is a better strategy than running around trying to stop people taking the pi$$ (which you should know is impossible in real terms).

PS - I don't believe those loyal British sepoy type Singhs represented the Khalsa spirit (in my eyes), they were mercenaries for a nonSikh cause; I believe those fighting to free Panjab and overthrow the 'master-race' were the true inheritors of this spirit myself (Sarabha, Guddari babay etc.)

Edited February 19, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Sat1176]

It is quite clear from the videos posted that the underlying motive may have been to ridicule Sikhs directly as there is certainly a large quantity of them out there. To keep targeting one particular community and telling jokes against them to make insinuations is plain wrong and most people would object whether it be from any community. After being forced to hear a barrage of jokes solely aimed against your community any one of us would get upset and offended.

But in context of a single joke content itself a few would be equally funny if the word Sardar or name of the person was substituted for something else or from another community. You can't help but have a little giggle at the joke itself but not directly at who it is being targeted if the intent isn't malicious and I think that is where differentiation lies. When a sardar tells a sardar joke is he actually laughing because he wants to insult "Sardar ji" of which he might actually be one or the joke content?

It's like the case when a black guy says to another black guy Hey N@@ger! It might not be deemed offensive, but as soon as a none black person uses it is.

If we today turn around and say Sardar ji or panjabi jokes are offensive, then one has to equally say that all jokes against any community are offensive. That means you can never tell a joke because you end up offending someone. All of a sudden you have eliminated 70% of the jokes out there and political correctness is gone mad. There has to be a right balance and where does one draw that line is very grey indeed.

When I and others on this forum posted a Sardar/Sikh/Panjabi joke were we trying to insult our own people or just having a little laugh at the underlying joke. Would you too also have laughed if the person was Mr Patel, or Mohammed or another name for that matter.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Sat1176

[dalsingh101]

Sat, brilliantly explained.

[dalsingh101]

PS - I just realised my post #32 was actually in response to Lucky not Sat. I've edited it accordingly.

Duhhh..... <my own Santa/Banta moment>

[Lucky]

PS - I don't believe those loyal British sepoy type Singhs represented the Khalsa spirit (in my eyes), they were mercenaries for a nonSikh cause; I believe those fighting to free Panjab and overthrow the 'master-race' were the true inheritors of this spirit myself (Sarabha, Guddari babay etc.)

Look Dalsingh, You may feel they never had khalsa spirit, but the FACT is they were sardars, proudly wearing their dastaars.

They went into battle every time with 'bole so nihal......'' and especially in WW1, they took hukamnamas and carried Guru Granth sahib saroops with them.

The exchanging of dastaars, showed how they were more honoured to be sardars and sikhs of the guru than the flags they may have been on battlegrounds for.

A sacrifice is a sacrifice, and I don't think that us no-doers, should sit back and start categorizing them into spirits of khalsa or not.

Like I said, I'm sure that my grandfather would not have been amused hearing a degrading sardar joke.

But in context of a single joke content itself a few would be equally funny if the word Sardar or name of the person was substituted for something else or from another community. You can't help but have a little giggle at the joke itself but not directly at who it is being targeted if the intent isn't malicious and I think that is where differentiation lies. When a sardar tells a sardar joke is he actually laughing because he wants to insult "Sardar ji" of which he might actually be one or the joke content?

It's like the case when a black guy says to another black guy Hey N@@ger! It might not be deemed offensive, but as soon as a none black person uses it is.

Well explained !

As you say we see blacks calling each other nigga.

I've also heard Koreans over here say ''zipper head'' to each other.( For those of u not aware, ''zipper head'' was a very offensive term coined by US during the korean war)

With so many different cultures over here, you realise other terms used in same manners like

Chinks/ japs calling an americanised yellow dude- ''BANANA''

then if the same chink/jap acts and dresses like a black hip hop dude they say ''BRUISED BANANA''

or even "PEELED BANANA"" for chink/jap acting like pure white man.

I'm sure there is many more in other parts of the world that I haven't heard !..

Edited February 19, 2014 by Lucky

[Jonny101]

It is quite clear from the videos posted that the underlying motive may have been to ridicule Sikhs directly as there is certainly a large quantity of them out there. To keep targeting one particular community and telling jokes against them to make insinuations is plain wrong and most people would object whether it be from any community. After being forced to hear a barrage of jokes solely aimed against your community any one of us would get upset and offended.

But in context of a single joke content itself a few would be equally funny if the word Sardar or name of the person was substituted for something else or from another community. You can't help but have a little giggle at the joke itself but not directly at who it is being targeted if the intent isn't malicious and I think that is where differentiation lies. When a sardar tells a sardar joke is he actually laughing because he wants to insult "Sardar ji" of which he might actually be one or the joke content?

It's like the case when a black guy says to another black guy Hey N@@ger! It might not be deemed offensive, but as soon as a none black person uses it is.

If we today turn around and say Sardar ji or panjabi jokes are offensive, then one has to equally say that all jokes against any community are offensive. That means you can never tell a joke because you end up offending someone. All of a sudden you have eliminated 70% of the jokes out there and political correctness is gone mad. There has to be a right balance and where does one draw that line is very grey indeed.

When I and others on this forum posted a Sardar/Sikh/Panjabi joke were we trying to insult our own people or just having a little laugh at the underlying joke. Would you too also have laughed if the person was Mr Patel, or Mohammed or another name for that matter.

I'm all for jokes. I like to laugh like anyone else. But I certainly don't like jokes at someone else's expense that makes an entire community look like half brained idiots. Among the Sikhs you will find people who are highly educated who have made their mark in the world of business, academia, politics, military yet the two other communities of South Asia have made these hurtful jokes on our people. The least we can do is not become a participant in our own mockery.

[Jonny101]

Dal Singh Jee, nothing wrong in joining the military. It builds character and maintains a martial tradition and at times of need these experienced veterans can also become useful in the defense of their people(ex Gen Shahbeg Singh, Baba Manochahal). Yes fighting for one's freedom is a true sign of the Khalsa, but one should certainly not look down upon those serving in the military.The vast majority of freedom fighters (pre 1947) were veterans and neither did they ever look down upon their fellow countrymen who served in the military. Even during the 1980s, Sikh militants never looked down upon Sikh soldiers in the Indian army.

[dalsingh101]

Thing is, when Sikhs join certain armies they essentially become part and parcel of that nations agenda, which can be very dubious.

You talk about Singhs in the British army like it was benign with no negative consequences, but no, Sikhs helped oppress the Chinese in the Opium Wars, which was as dubious as it gets (forcing heroin on the Chinese). European imperialism might have financially benefited some rural Sikhs economically, but on a wider moral canvas, supporting one group to essentially overthrow and dictate onto another foreign nation has serious moral issues. Celebrating our colonial role gets even more comical when people who harp on about Sikh sovereignty/Khalistan do it because on one hand they are bemoaning their own loss of sovereignty whilst being totally oblivious to the way Sikhs themselves were used to help crush, suppress other communities assertions of self-rule as paid imperial subjects.

Plus, another historical ignorance is being displayed here too. Let's be frank, people joined the British fauj did so for personal monetary reasons - not because they were on some Sikhi dharam-yudh. And you can look at research on the actual ground realities of Sikh foot soldiers in WW1 you realise that they weren't all exactly innocent Amritdharis. Some were shagging prostitutes and European women, smuggling drugs and even committing rape.

Like I said: You might try and justify Singhs bearing the 'whiteman's burden', I think it is disgraceful and usually derived of financial greed and/or an inferiority complex to goray.

Thankfully, most people seem to have clued themselves up about this in this day and age. Despite all the ar5e-licking, I don't see loads of apanay risking their necks in Iraq and Afghanistan today like our forefathers may have. Which is great.

End lesson: Fight your own wars - not other people's!

Educate yourself with this: http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/13952-letters-of-indian-soldiers-of-world-war-1/page-1

Edited February 19, 2014 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

PS - I don't think solely wearing a dastaar means anything:

There are drug addicts that do; people who frequent prostitutes too, murderers and whatnot.

It's the conduct that exalts. Just wearing a pagh on its own without raising your intellect, behaviour and discipline with it, don't count for ANYTHING in my eyes; if anything it is (arguably) a perversion.

Ultimately, I think for a Sikh, the dastaar is emblematic of dasmesh pita with all the related connotations of bravery, sacrifice, leadership, compassion, responsibility (the list goes one and on). Unless you are barking up these trees..............

If you've taken Amrit for career reasons (like joining the army) as opposed to the above......I think it is disgusting.

[tonyhp32]

I'm all for jokes. I like to laugh like anyone else. But I certainly don't like jokes at someone else's expense that makes an entire community look like half brained idiots. Among the Sikhs you will find people who are highly educated who have made their mark in the world of business, academia, politics, military yet the two other communities of South Asia have made these hurtful jokes on our people. The least we can do is not become a participant in our own mockery.

Great point. I think the Baba in the video you posted said it best. If you are a Sikh and you tell Sardarji jokes than you become a joke yourself. Something which seems to have escaped the notice of the original poster.

[dalsingh101]

Great point. I think the Baba in the video you posted said it best. If you are a Sikh and you tell Sardarji jokes than you become a joke yourself. Something which seems to have escaped the notice of the original poster.

A Sikh using self-deprecating humor, to highlight issues amongst ourselves is very different to some apna fudhu making Santa/Banta jokes to a Hindu audience.

I think the OP did the former. Underlying his joke was an issue of golak greed and the curious way many bibis use their bra as a purse.

That people don't get this says more about their own wit than anything else perhaps?

[Sat1176]

I won't post the Khalistan jokes list just in case it leads to a war on this forum. That one is sure to make some peoples blood boil.

[tonyhp32]

A Sikh using self-deprecating humor, to highlight issues amongst ourselves is very different to some apna fudhu making Santa/Banta jokes to a Hindu audience.

I think the OP did the former. Underlying his joke was an issue of golak greed and the curious way many bibis use their bra as a purse.

That people don't get this says more about their own wit than anything else perhaps?

What issues?

The fact that some women may put a coin in their bra is an issue? Or is the burning issue of the day why some women have big breasts? Since I am assuming that the OP doesn't go around ogging other women's breasts so maybe his mother or his wife or his sisters have big breasts and hence why he found the joke so amusing and so wanted to project his female family members' big breastedness onto Sikh women in general. Maybe that is an issue he should explore.

How did you come up with the issue of GOLAK GREED? You really are clutching at straws trying to justify a fool's posting of a Sikh joke on the forum.

That people don't get this says more about their own wit than anything else perhaps?

Or are you just projecting your own lack of judgement and common sense on to others?

[Sat1176]

Veeray you have got some serious bir ras issues. Your firing your machine gun in all directions now.

[dalsingh101]

Tony you miserable, depressing peasant. lol

[Singh123456777]

My question is who cares?

[SunnySingh]

A Sardarji from Amritsar was visiting the UK for the first time, and had boarded a train from Paddington and was on his way to Cardiff to visit his sister and her family.

In the train, sitting across from him, this rather stoic and proper looking Englishman in a pin-striped suit was engrossed in reading the morning’s paper.

As the train rolled on, the Sardarji was soon bored. Wanting to strike up a conversation he leaned over and asked the Englishman, ‘Excuse me Sir, what is your name?’

*Not very happy at this development, the Englishman nevertheless obliged and said, ‘John Smith.
And what is your name Sir?’*

The Sardar replied, ‘Banta Singh. And where are you from Mr. Smith?’

‘From Lancashire’ And you Mr. Singh?’

Making every effort to keep up with Mr. Smith, the Sardarji replied, ‘From Amritshire!’

*This confused the hell out of Mr. Smith..
He knew of Bedfordshire, Berkshire, Lincolnshire, Worcestershire;
but Amritshire???*

*Eyebrows raised,
he asked the Sardarji, ‘And on what “longitude and latitude” would Amritshire be Sir?’*

Now it was Banta’s turn to look all confused.
But not willing to show his ignorance, and not knowing the meaning of these words, he replied in his new found accent ‘ Sir, You see, in Amritshire we don’t use Latitude and Longitude we have the more advanced geographical coordinates “Bhenkitude” & “Maakitude”*

Mr. Smith is still searching the dictionary for those words !!!