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JungChamkaur

Bigotry On This Website. Please Read.

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Sat Sri Akal Singho,

I am new to this forum but I have read many threads so far and I am extremely disturbed. I came to this site thinking that the Singhs here would be a good representation of Gurmat philosophy. However, thread after thread, all I am seeing is bigotry. Several users here are prejudiced and make generalized statements without incurring any warnings from the Moderator. For instance, I see Gurmukhs on this site who seem to have great knowledge on Gurbani saying things like "Indian muslims this", "Punjabi Hindus this". "Oh the Hindus did this, The Muslims did this".... I mentioned this on another thread about Reconciliation and I am saying this here again: please refrain from generalizing. It is black and white labelling that has caused so much problems for our Panth. Blaming any community as a whole for the actions of a few individuals is blatantly wrong and should be denigrated by the forum Moderator swiftly. When the Mughal hukumat attacked GuruJi, Guru Sahib did not blame the Muslims. When Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked Harmandir Sahib, Sant Baba Deep Singh Ji did not blame Muslims. Our Panth cannot remain Tyar Bar Tyar if we think in terms of black and white. We have to think critically. If we blame communities as a whole then we are allowing the media and other anti-Sikh individuals and organizations to give examples of bigotry. The Taliban was used by Western media outlets to defame the Muslims of the world. Likewise, Ajaib Singh Bagri was used by the Indian Govt to malign the Sikhs. We must take an educated approach. The moderator on this website must also play his/her role and step in and correct our Bhais when they make these kind of mistakes. If we do not fix our terminology then we are to be blamed for our Panth's gradual denigration. I say gradual because there are too many people who blame whole communities.

If we blame Punjabi Hindus for Punjabi Suba, then they can blame us, as a whole, tomorrow for electing Badal and allowing him to unleash a reign of terror across the state of Punjab. We must be aware. We have to be vigilant. We cannot allow people from our own ranks to make bigoted statements. They hurt our whole community. I for one cannot stand anyone generalizing. The moderator should take action and make his actions public and publicly denounce statements that target a whole community. I am going to outline some examples:

1. The Mughals and SOME (note the word Some... not all Pahari Rajas attacked) Hill Rajput Rajas attacked Guru Sahib.

Guru Sahib did not blame Muslims, Hindus, or Rajputs as a whole.

2. Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked Harmandir Sahib. Baba Deep Singh Ji did not blame Muslims.

3. 1984 Genocide : Indian Govt Cats blamed Hindus as a whole. True Sikhs blamed the Indian Govt of Rajiv Gandhi and gave credit to individuals such as Gen. Sinha et al, and did not blame Hindus as a whole.

4. 1947 Partition: We should not blame Muslims as a whole. I remember reading an article where a fellow Sikh explained how the Muslim League attacked Hindus and Sikhs in West Punjab and were successful in portraying the attacks as an organic Muslim insurgence. However, it was an orchestrated, British-mandated (Muslim League is an extension of the West--- so is Pakistan and slowly India as well) affair. We have to blame ourselves for not realizing that the attacks against Hindus and Sikhs were actually sponsored by agencies of the West. We bought the lie and reacted just as nefariously as the supposed "Muslims" did and contributed to the destruction of India's history. We contributed to the destruction of Afghanistan, Balochistan, Bengal, Punjab, Sindh, and Kashmir. When I say WE I mean all Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims that bought the lie of partition. We lost Nankana Sahib and I remember seeing pictures of dozens of Gurdwaras in Pakistan deteriorating and I was dumbfounded. The British split all peoples of South Asia that would have formed any resistance to their corporatist and capitalist agenda.

I remember listening to Bani from Dasmesh PitaJi and I remember reading something about Russia and China marching into Hind and how 400 Million Hindus would perish or something and that the whole nation would take amrit and they would fight back as Khalsay and Reign supreme. I am unsure as to where I came across this Bani, if someone can help me find it, I will greatly appreciate it. But my point is, we have to be aware and blame people SPECIFICALLY. The MODERATOR should STEP IN anytime anti-gurmat comments are made and when people generalize.

US BLAMING HINDUS MUSLIMS AS A WHOLE IS LIKE SOMEONE BLAMING US FOR THE ACTIONS OF BADAL!!!!! DONT YOU SEE WHAT YOUR DOING! DONT BE IGNORANT! BE AWARE!

WAKE UP!

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karayo

Satnaam

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I think you only got half the picture right here. Before you joined, there was a user called Ekomkar who is a Punjabi Hindu. He and to a lesser degree his friend Sher had written a lot of Bakwas here against the Sikhs, Sikh history and even celebrated operation blue star. It was in response to him that I wrote some stuff here which you find objectionable. Usually I don't write this type of stuff with such direct language but one must use iron to cut iron(Loha Lohay noon Katda hai). To counter Ekomkar's lies me and others here had to put everything in proper historical and factual context because they were presenting a very distorted picture of what happened in the 1980s.

As for Pakistan or Muslim issue, can you show me here where someone wrote something objectionable.

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"Sher had written a lot of Bakwas here against the Sikhs, Sikh history and even celebrated operation blue star"

Anything which does not conform with your biased version is "bakwas" and whatever you write here is to "put everything in proper historical and factual context" so justified. majoritarianism wins, perpetuate the myths which suit your agenda, silence any dissent/non-conformist which rises from within the ranks or from 'outside'. in simple words, my way or the highway..That's not balanced thinking in my opinion.

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As for Pakistan or Muslim issue, can you show me here where someone wrote something objectionable.

Hahaha! He and his like-minded posters on this forum are only anti-Hindu

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Sat Sri Akal Singho,

I am new to this forum but I have read many threads so far and I am extremely disturbed. I came to this site thinking that the Singhs here would be a good representation of Gurmat philosophy. However, thread after thread, all I am seeing is bigotry. Several users here are prejudiced and make generalized statements without incurring any warnings from the Moderator. For instance, I see Gurmukhs on this site who seem to have great knowledge on Gurbani saying things like "Indian muslims this", "Punjabi Hindus this". "Oh the Hindus did this, The Muslims did this".... I mentioned this on another thread about Reconciliation and I am saying this here again: please refrain from generalizing. It is black and white labelling that has caused so much problems for our Panth. Blaming any community as a whole for the actions of a few individuals is blatantly wrong and should be denigrated by the forum Moderator swiftly. When the Mughal hukumat attacked GuruJi, Guru Sahib did not blame the Muslims. When Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked Harmandir Sahib, Sant Baba Deep Singh Ji did not blame Muslims. Our Panth cannot remain Tyar Bar Tyar if we think in terms of black and white. We have to think critically. If we blame communities as a whole then we are allowing the media and other anti-Sikh individuals and organizations to give examples of bigotry. The Taliban was used by Western media outlets to defame the Muslims of the world. Likewise, Ajaib Singh Bagri was used by the Indian Govt to malign the Sikhs. We must take an educated approach. The moderator on this website must also play his/her role and step in and correct our Bhais when they make these kind of mistakes. If we do not fix our terminology then we are to be blamed for our Panth's gradual denigration. I say gradual because there are too many people who blame whole communities.

If we blame Punjabi Hindus for Punjabi Suba, then they can blame us, as a whole, tomorrow for electing Badal and allowing him to unleash a reign of terror across the state of Punjab. We must be aware. We have to be vigilant. We cannot allow people from our own ranks to make bigoted statements. They hurt our whole community. I for one cannot stand anyone generalizing. The moderator should take action and make his actions public and publicly denounce statements that target a whole community. I am going to outline some examples:

1. The Mughals and SOME (note the word Some... not all Pahari Rajas attacked) Hill Rajput Rajas attacked Guru Sahib.

Guru Sahib did not blame Muslims, Hindus, or Rajputs as a whole.

2. Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked Harmandir Sahib. Baba Deep Singh Ji did not blame Muslims.

3. 1984 Genocide : Indian Govt Cats blamed Hindus as a whole. True Sikhs blamed the Indian Govt of Rajiv Gandhi and gave credit to individuals such as Gen. Sinha et al, and did not blame Hindus as a whole.

4. 1947 Partition: We should not blame Muslims as a whole. I remember reading an article where a fellow Sikh explained how the Muslim League attacked Hindus and Sikhs in West Punjab and were successful in portraying the attacks as an organic Muslim insurgence. However, it was an orchestrated, British-mandated (Muslim League is an extension of the West--- so is Pakistan and slowly India as well) affair. We have to blame ourselves for not realizing that the attacks against Hindus and Sikhs were actually sponsored by agencies of the West. We bought the lie and reacted just as nefariously as the supposed "Muslims" did and contributed to the destruction of India's history. We contributed to the destruction of Afghanistan, Balochistan, Bengal, Punjab, Sindh, and Kashmir. When I say WE I mean all Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims that bought the lie of partition. We lost Nankana Sahib and I remember seeing pictures of dozens of Gurdwaras in Pakistan deteriorating and I was dumbfounded. The British split all peoples of South Asia that would have formed any resistance to their corporatist and capitalist agenda.

I remember listening to Bani from Dasmesh PitaJi and I remember reading something about Russia and China marching into Hind and how 400 Million Hindus would perish or something and that the whole nation would take amrit and they would fight back as Khalsay and Reign supreme. I am unsure as to where I came across this Bani, if someone can help me find it, I will greatly appreciate it. But my point is, we have to be aware and blame people SPECIFICALLY. The MODERATOR should STEP IN anytime anti-gurmat comments are made and when people generalize.

US BLAMING HINDUS MUSLIMS AS A WHOLE IS LIKE SOMEONE BLAMING US FOR THE ACTIONS OF BADAL!!!!! DONT YOU SEE WHAT YOUR DOING! DONT BE IGNORANT! BE AWARE!

WAKE UP!

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karayo

Satnaam

Well said JC.i would agree with the overall sentiment. generalisations and assumptions are made by those who are either misinformed or have rigid thinking. I would do a little gustakhi and make few corrections in the examples you have given. No one blame Punjabi Hindus for Punjabi Suba as it was an Akali/Sikh demand. I would also disagree with the assertion that Partition violence by Muslims was mandated by the Brits. 1984 Delhi violence was partially communal as the victims were from the same community (sikhs) but not the perpetrators. The victims died because of their faith, the killers did not kill as a service to their faith/s (killers also included large number of Muslims).

lastly, blaming whole Hindu or Muslim community would be like someone blaming the whole sikh community for punjab terrorism (inc Air India bombings).

Thanks anyway for sharing your much enlightened thoughts.

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Hahaha! He and his like-minded posters on this forum are only anti-Hindu

What are you talking about? when did I write anything anti Hindu? It is only the Punjabi Hindus who are under the evil influence of Arya Samaj that are the trouble makers. Rest of the Hindus are alright. Plus I have never said anything against Hindu Dharm because I know Arya Samaj as distortion of real Hindu Dharm. Before Arya Samaj came to Punjab, Sikhs and Hindus were close. But since the creation of this evil sect, nothing has been the same. They created mistrust and competitive type attitude in the minds of Hindus against the Sikhs where previously there was none.

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I understand that people on this forum have made derogatory statements but you dont respond in a like manner.... thats like if we killed innocent Hindus because a group of evil so-called "Hindus" killed Sikhs in Delhi. However, I have personally met a Sikh from Mississauga ,Ontario, Canada who was openly bragging about his Chacha killing 2-3 families of Hindus in the aftermath of 1984 riots... I was disgusted. There are always people who feel justified in thinking in a black and white ignorant manner when people on forums like this fight "iron with iron". If Hitler killed Jews, the Jews didnt blame Germans as a whole but the Nazi Party... If we fight iron with iron then we are the same as the enemy and we are actually giving them ammunition to malign us in public later without showing their own initiation of conflict (this is what happen in the 1980s). This is why I get upset listening to the speeches by Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwaleji. He isolated the Punjabi Hindus by falling into the trap of the RSS/Government. They threw the bait and we took it. Blanket statements only derail our movement for rights. If the opposition uses blanket statements, and we do the same thign then were are stupider than them. Also, I remember watching a speech by "Bharpur Singh Balbir": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0mLoA04RKU..

In this speech Bharpur Singh says "Hindus have been slaves for 1000 years"... I was inspired by this comment to do research on my own. It didnt take more than 5 minutes to realize that more than half of his historic statements are false and did nothing but made us look bad to Hindus. Saying Hindus have been slaves for 1000 years is like saying "Punjab was enslaved for 500 years until Pehli Patshahi and then we were free while "Hindus" remained slaves for another 500 years". India has a strong history of resistance which was sporadic, yet unending. There was always resistance from some corner of the nation and to label people as "Hindus" is putting Marathas and Rajputs and Jatts all in one group... this is complete nonsense and shows that the claims in this video are fatuous. We might as well let historians malign us for the actions of Ala Singh when he allied with Ahmad Shah and when they (Patiala and allies) fought against Dal Khalsa troops in 1857 rebellion...

Blanket statements should be regulated openly by the Moderator. Until we think critically we will never achieve anything. We have a long way to go before we can fight the drug menace which is the real threat right now.

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Ok first of all Jonny, I am not "Hindu", whatever your definition of Hindu is.. I have yet to come across an objective definition of the term itself. I am sorry I am a critical thinker and you obviously cannot tolerate anyone speaking on behalf of India... Perhaps you view India as a "Hindu nation"? India is no ones Jagir.. As Col. GS Sandhuji says: "calling Sikhs anti-nationalist is speaking against the facts considering the effort put forth by us in the independence movement: hangings, Andaman Island Imprisonment, Life sentences etc"..

Oh and do tell me the trouble I am stirring..? I guess your against Shaheed Bhagat Singh and the Ghadar Party too right? Because as I said before, I ascribe myself to their ideology..

I am also not surprised that you have nothing to say about my points and you jump to an absurd allegation: "OMG THIS GUY MUST BE HINDU WATCH OUT DONT LISTEN TO WHAT HES SAYING!"

I am not a sheep. I remember meeting a fellow Sikh who said: "These Akalis have ruined Punjab".... I looked at him in awe and I was surprised he would use the term Akali to refer to Badals group. I told him to make sure he says Badal's Akalis because we dont want to denigrate the term. We must distinguish between real and fake Akalis and use the same critical lens to view other entities.

Jonny dont message unless you have something to contribute. You are just making useless comments that do no good for the thread. Attack my points and dont jump to irrational conclusions. If you think me being a nationalist is bad then you have no right to blame "Hindus" for going against a Punjabi Suba. Just like Punjabi isnt anyones Jagir, neither is India. Let me guess, this is too much for you too right? Why not call me a Hindu and try to ignore my points which are all valid.. All your doing is portraying yourself as ignorant.

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Your view is hindu, as the pan indian hindu identity is a British manufactured one.

Keep talking about communism, we remember communists saying they will plant rice in the sarovar.

Any idiot, knows of the mass disarmament and mass murder campaigns taken out by many of the large communist countries in the 20th century.

Before you embarrass yourself further, just leave or read quit trying to troll.

Communism is a way for the lower to rise but it is also christianized in its mission to end tribalism. I love my tribe,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

Also hindu does not generally mean jat, maratha or rajput. They have had differing beliefs. Also jat is not same as jatt.

Edited by GtLoc

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My view isnt "Hindu"... its weird because you say that there is no such thing as "Hindu" because they all have differing beliefs and then you say Im Hindu.. I dont know about you but I listen to Giani Sher Singhji all the time and Giani Sant Singh Maskeenji and I dont see anything wrong with being Indian.. our Sikh identity and religion is clearly intertwined with India.... this doesnt mean that I respect Indira Gandhi.. it just means that I believe we are just as or more Indian that her.. India is not the property of Hindus....

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Also, to the stupid comments by GTLOC... you cant blame an ideology for the way a certain entity implements it.... seriously. I believe marxism is a modern/postmodern ideology that is compatible with Gurbani: kirat karo naam japo vand chhako. The anti-religious stance of communism is something I am against but I also believe that communists attacked religion because of institutions like Deras in Punjab.. not because of Sarbans Dani Genuine Gurus. Nevertheless, Ghadari Babay were marxists and you cant ridicule me because of Stalin.... or the Khmer Rouge. We might as well let Punjabi Hindus blame us for Badal's actions and say its a "Panthic govt".

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