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Uggardanti And Bansavalinama

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Sat Sri Akal Everyone,

Could someone please tell me about Uggardanti and Bansavalinama?

Thank You

SatnaamJi

Uggardanti is one of the Gupt Dasam Banis written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It praises the lord in a feminine form, and figuratively describes his warrior and maternal qualities (of course there is that MEMBER who will fight you tooth and claw to prove otherwise). The BANSAVALINAMA is the work of Kesar Singh Chibber, one of the court poets of the tenth Guru. It is a genealogical account of the ten Gurus lives and also provides an exegesis of the Uggardanti. For more info tisarpanth on fb, the blog and the Sikh-Reality Blogspots are good places.

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Sat Sri Akal Everyone,

Could someone please tell me about Uggardanti and Bansavalinama?

Thank You

SatnaamJi

i believe both these granths are online

BANSAVALINAMA DASAN PATSHAHIAN KA is a poeticized account of the lives of the Gurus by Kesar Singh Chhibbar. The term bansavalinama means a genealogy. Another term used in the text is "kursinama" which is Persian for "genealogy." But, strictly speaking, this work is not a genealogical table. It is a rapid account, in rather incipient Punjabi verse, of the ten Gurus and of Banda Singh Bahadur and some other Sikhs.

Description of historical events and mythological elements occasionally overlap in this work. Its peculiar feature is the wealth of chronological detail it contains about the lives of the Gurus and the members of their families.But the reliability of the dates recorded by the author is not established. The author, Kesar Singh Chhibbar, came of a family who had served the Gurus as diwans or ministers. His grandfather, Dharam Chand, was in charge of the treasury of Guru Gobind Singh.

Dharam Chand`s father, Dargah Mall, had been diwan to Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Guru, and his two predecessors. Dharam Chand`s son, Gurbakhsh Singh, served Guru Gobind Singh. Kesar Singh was Gurbakhsh Singh`s son. Too young at the time of Guru Gobind Singh`s passing away, he did have the privilege of the company of some eminent Sikhs of his day, notably scholar and martyr Bhai Mani Singh.For many years he lived at Amritsar and also attended upon Mata Sundari, widow of Guru Gobind Singh, in Delhi. As he records himself, he wrote the Bansavalinama in a dharamsala in Jammu and completed it in 1826 Bk/AD 1769.

The book, comprising 2,564 stanzas, is divided into fourteen chapters. The first ten deal with the Ten Gurus. There is a chapter each on Banda Singh Bahadur, Jit (Ajit) Singh, adopted son of Mata Sundari, and Mata Sahib Devan. The last chapter of the book alludes to the state of the Sikhs in the early decades of the eighteenth century, persecution they suffered at the hands of the ruling authority and their will to survival.A point especially stressed is about the bestowal of Guruship on the Holy Book by Guru Gobind Singh before he passed away.

Kesar Singh says, "At this time the Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru (i.e. prophet teacher)... Recognize him alone as the Guru`s true Sikh who accepts as eternally true the word enshrined in.the Granth. He who abides by the word in the Granth, he alone will be the follower approved." He also mentions some other prescriptions for the Sikhs in the manner of Rahitnamas or manuals of Sikh code. But some of his assertions are not in conformity with Sikh belief and teachings. For example, he accepts the Gurus as incarnations of Visnu.

The Gurus acknowledged no deity besides God, nor did they support the theory of incarnation. Again, the author has tried to prove the superiority of the Brahmans even among the Sikhs which may be due to his own Brahman ancestry. In any case, this is contrary to the principles of Sikhism which rejects caste. Till recently this Sikh chronicle was available only in manuscript.Â

It was edited by Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi and published in 1972, in the Parakh, a research journal of the Panjab University, Chandigarh.The text used was a manuscript in a private collection at Batala. No date is mentioned on the manuscript, but it could be about 150 years old. A manuscript is also preserved in the Khalsa College Library at Amritsar; there was as well one in the Sikh Reference Library at Amritsar until it perished in the Army attack on the Golden Temple complex in 1984.

http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/eighteenth-century-literature/bansavalinama-dasan-patshahian-ka

Edited by namdhari555

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The translation on Manglacharan website says Guru Sahib praised Devi. I have read another thread between someone named navjot and many other users about this. It is a controversial matter and I am sure that many people here dont want to restart the conversation. However, I think that the thread I mentioned, failed to give me an objective and final answer to this dilemma. Do people believe the Uggardanti and Bansavalinama to be valid in terms of its claims and content?

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The translation on Manglacharan website says Guru Sahib praised Devi. I have read another thread between someone named navjot and many other users about this. It is a controversial matter and I am sure that many people here dont want to restart the conversation. However, I think that the thread I mentioned, failed to give me an objective and final answer to this dilemma. Do people believe the Uggardanti and Bansavalinama to be valid in terms of its claims and content?

God in a feminine form son.

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The translation on Manglacharan website says Guru Sahib praised Devi.

There are many instances where Guru sahib has praised Devi. Dasam Granth full of such writings.

I think Ugardanti has been excluded from dasam Granth fo the following lines:

ਅਗਮ ਸੂਰਬੀਰੇ ਉਠਹਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੋਧਾ ॥ ਪਕੜ ਤੁਰਕ ਗਨ ਕਉ ਕਰੈ ਵੈ ਨਿਰੋਧਾ ॥

Ample brave Singh warriors will rise. They will face the Turks and make them defenceless.

ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੁਕ ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥

Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

ਜਪਉਂ ਜਾਪ ਏਕੈ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਅਕਾਲੰ ॥ ਹੈਵ ਤਬ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਸਭ ਛਿਨਕ ਮੈਂ ਨਿਹਾਲੰ ॥

Everyone will worship only the one Almighty. The entire world will be immediately be blissful.

ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥

Please listen to my plea, my Mother Bhavani. Bestow your great blessings on this slave.

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The translation above is not correct. This is a mistranslated done and promoted by RSS. The correct translation is:

ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ, ਹਿੰਦੁਕ ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥

Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The (Khalsa) Dharm will prevail and the Hindus and Turks will be banished

The Vishram(comma) should be placed after Dharm not after Hindak as the translator has wrongly done. The Hindak and Turkan is grouped together as the two Panths that the Khalsa(the teesar panth mentioned in the preceding Tukh) will banish as the Khalsa will become prominent through out the world.

Also in this composition it is written the Mandirs and Masjids will be destroyed by the Khalsa(ਮੜੀ ਗੋਰ ਦੇਵਲ ਮਸੀਤਾਂ ਗਿਰਾਯੰ). The Khalsa will destroy the Vedas, Shastars and Purans of the Hindus(ਮਿਟਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਠਾਰਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ) and the khalsa will finish the Circumcision practice, Azaan,Namaz and Quran of the Muslims (ਮਿਟੈ ਬਾਂਗ ਸਲਵਾਤ ਸੁੰਨਤ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ)

In Uggardanti it is written about the two Panths(Hindu and Muslim) ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪੰਥ ਮੇਂ ਕਪਟ ਵਿਦਯਾ ਚਲਾਨੀ । ਬਹੁਰ ਤੀਸਰਾ ਪੰਥ ਕੀਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੀ that since there is too much Kapat(corruption) in the two Panths(of Hinduism and Islam) the teesar Panth(Khalsa Dharm) has been created and is superior.

If you wanna believe this then go ahead

Edited by Jonny101

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Jonny the translations above cannot possibly be done if what you write is correct. There are stark differences between the translation on the site and what you have provided. Do you personally hold Uggardanti in high esteem? Also, what is your opinion about the Bansavalinama?

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The Vishram(comma) should be placed after Dharm not after Hindak as the translator has wrongly done.

Actually if you read it like a poem, you know exactly where the comma comes. There's beat to it that is broken otherwise.

ਅਗਮ ਸੂਰਬੀਰੇ, ਉਠਹਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੋਧਾ ॥ ਪਕੜ ਤੁਰਕ ਗਨ ਕਉ, ਕਰੈ ਵੈ ਨਿਰੋਧਾ ॥

Ample brave Singh warriors will rise. They will face the Turks and make them defenceless.

ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੁਕ, ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥

Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

ਜਪਉਂ ਜਾਪ ਏਕੈ, ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਅਕਾਲੰ ॥ ਹੈਵ ਤਬ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਸਭ, ਛਿਨਕ ਮੈਂ ਨਿਹਾਲੰ ॥

Everyone will worship only the one Almighty. The entire world will be immediately be blissful.

ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ, ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ, ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥

Please listen to my plea, my Mother Bhavani. Bestow your great blessings on this slave.

The comma is always before the last three words.

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ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੁਕ, ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥

Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

The comma is always before the last three words.

I would say the correct Vishram on this tukh is as follows:

ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ, ਹਿੰਦੁਕ, ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ

Which will translate as the (Khalsa) Dharm will prevail, (and) the Hindus, the Turks will be in flight.

So there is a comma on the last three words but the meaning I gave will still remain.

Edited by Jonny101

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Actually if you read it like a poem, you know exactly where the comma comes. There's beat to it that is broken otherwise.

ਅਗਮ ਸੂਰਬੀਰੇ, ਉਠਹਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੋਧਾ ॥ ਪਕੜ ਤੁਰਕ ਗਨ ਕਉ, ਕਰੈ ਵੈ ਨਿਰੋਧਾ ॥

Ample brave Singh warriors will rise. They will face the Turks and make them defenceless.

ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ ਹਿੰਦੁਕ, ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥

Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

ਜਪਉਂ ਜਾਪ ਏਕੈ, ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਅਕਾਲੰ ॥ ਹੈਵ ਤਬ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਸਭ, ਛਿਨਕ ਮੈਂ ਨਿਹਾਲੰ ॥

Everyone will worship only the one Almighty. The entire world will be immediately be blissful.

ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ, ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ, ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥

Please listen to my plea, my Mother Bhavani. Bestow your great blessings on this slave.

The comma is always before the last three words.

What kind of Hindu Dharam will prevails when the Khalsa has destroyed the Veds and Purans? The word Jagai does not mean prevail. The whole import of the Uggardanti is the destruction of both the Hindu and Muslim religions and their replacement with the Khalsa Panth. I fear Sher might be having nightmares reading this.

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Jonny the translations above cannot possibly be done if what you write is correct. There are stark differences between the translation on the site and what you have provided. Do you personally hold Uggardanti in high esteem? Also, what is your opinion about the Bansavalinama?

I would not trust the site above. I will not say much about him but he promotes non Sikh practices.

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What kind of Hindu Dharam will prevails when the Khalsa has destroyed the Veds and Purans? The word Jagai does not mean prevail. The whole import of the Uggardanti is the destruction of both the Hindu and Muslim religions and their replacement with the Khalsa Panth. I fear Sher might be having nightmares reading this.

Very true. I don't understand how RSS tries to promote this tukh by mistranslated it but in other parts of the Bani it is written how the Khalsa will destroy the Vedas, Purans, Shastars and Mandirs. If these are all destroyed what Hindu Dharm will be left? This composition promotes the superiority of the teesar panth-Khalsa Dharm over the other two Dharms i.e. Hinduism and Islam.

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Ugardanti is not stating khalsa will be destroying puranas or vedas, obviously that would be self destructive against gurbani itself where gurbani supporting vedas and puranas gyan sidhant ie- akaal usta/t as far as mool sidhant is concerned but rather kaal- maha kaal will destroy everything in non dualistic sense- disappear back in mahakaal- destruction has many layers of interpretations not just physical but mental perceptions ns-read parloa, maha parloa, gyan parloa explanation by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale in 21st astpahadi.

 

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On 3/5/2014 at 3:09 PM, N30 S!NGH said:

Ugardanti is not stating khalsa will be destroying puranas or vedas, obviously that would be self destructive against gurbani itself where gurbani supporting vedas and puranas gyan sidhant ie- akaal usta/t as far as mool sidhant is concerned but rather kaal- maha kaal will destroy everything- destruction has many layers of interpretations not just physical but perceptions-read parloa, maha parloa, gyan parloa explanation by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale in 21st astpahadi.

 

Veere, I don't know of this bani is authentic as it is not in Dasam Granth. But why sugar coat it and give it some alternative meaning? It is clearly written in this composition that Vedas, Shastars, Purans, Mandirs of the Hindus and the circumcision, Azaan and Quran, Masjids of the Muslims will be destroyed while the Khalsa Dharm will prevail everywhere. Personally this does not fit my world view because Khalsa has come to protect all whether they are Hindus or Muslims not destroy them.

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There is no sugar coating, its called basing the arths by keeping overall sidhant of gurmat in mind and interpertating the bani based on overall sidhant of gurmat so one is able to reconcile it fully according to rest of gurbani and overall gurmat sidhant.

Any real gyani who have spent 10-20 years studying will vehemently disagree with above black and white translations.

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Even though neither I have read the Uggardanti bani nor I have the good karma of spending decades of Spiritual studies, but I do agree with N30 bhaji.

If we go to very basics of the meanings of words, then it would be crystal clear:

  • Khalsa: The one who has tasted the Atam Anand. It is NOT the Khalsa who has taken physical Amrit and declared themselves to be Khalsa.
  • Hindu/Turks: Who was lost in rituals and treat the creation of God as God. This does not apply to True Hindu and/or Turk.
  • Vedas/Other-Spiritual Granths/Mandirs etc: Where Ek-Onkar is not mentioned but duality is mentioned; e.g Veda do talk about the one lord but that one lord is Kal. Where Idols pervail and nobody looks beyond the idols/rules-and-regulations.

So, based upon the above definations, anyone could derive that:

Atam Anand (True knowledge of Ek-Onkar) or the person having Atam Anand will destroy all the illusions (created in Vedas, Idol worship without looking beyond, always indulged in rituals without taking into consideration the Inner path) created by Kal (in order to decieve the Souls).

Edited by das

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What kind of Hindu Dharam will prevails when the Khalsa has destroyed the Veds and Purans? The word Jagai does not mean prevail. The whole import of the Uggardanti is the destruction of both the Hindu and Muslim religions and their replacement with the Khalsa Panth. I fear Sher might be having nightmares reading this.

Hahaha! No, i am not having nightmares. i am enjoying myself over the debate brainwashed hindu-haters are having. they now somehow wants us to believe that khalsa is a dharam which has been made to destroy mandirs and vedas and what not. Are these ultra bigots saying (if Khalsa is a Dharam in itself not just a panth) Sikhi is a fourth dharam? when Khalsas start destroying mandirs, would they start from harimandir?

Really interesting, the poet has written a poem in praise of 'Hindu deities' and then also written that they and their followers would be destroyed by 'Khalsa dharam'. can you show me just one instance PLEASE where word dharam has been used with either Sikh or khalsa anywhere in any Sikh scriptures? also, who was/is considered a Hindu in your opinion? what is a Ugradanti, kali, Naina Devi, Chandi, Bhavani et al upasak?

What kind of sikhi, gurmat you guys are following as you seem to have only one point agenda - prove somehow that Gurus wrote every single word to rub Hindus' collective nose in the dust. that a new 'dharam' was created the day Baba Nanak was born. after that day, everything should be seen in black and white, Sikh and Hindu. In other words, Baba Nanak and the following nine Gurus and Bhagats were born to divide.

Ugradanti would not be happy with such iconoclasts ;)

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On 3/5/2014 at 3:09 PM, N30 S!NGH said:

Ugardanti is not stating khalsa will be destroying puranas or vedas, obviously that would be self destructive against gurbani itself where gurbani supporting vedas and puranas gyan sidhant ie- akaal usta/t as far as mool sidhant is concerned but rather kaal- maha kaal will destroy everything in non dualistic sense- disappear back in mahakaal- destruction has many layers of interpretations not just physical but mental perceptions ns-read parloa, maha parloa, gyan parloa explanation by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale in 21st astpahadi.

 

Oh come one we all know where their root arises from.

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Hahaha! No, i am not having nightmares. i am enjoying myself over the debate brainwashed hindu-haters are having. they now somehow wants us to believe that khalsa is a dharam which has been made to destroy mandirs and vedas and what not. Are these ultra bigots saying (if Khalsa is a Dharam in itself not just a panth) Sikhi is a fourth dharam? when Khalsas start destroying mandirs, would they start from harimandir?

Really interesting, the poet has written a poem in praise of 'Hindu deities' and then also written that they and their followers would be destroyed by 'Khalsa dharam'. can you show me just one instance PLEASE where word dharam has been used with either Sikh or khalsa anywhere in any Sikh scriptures? also, who was/is considered a Hindu in your opinion? what is a Ugradanti, kali, Naina Devi, Chandi, Bhavani et al upasak?

What kind of sikhi, gurmat you guys are following as you seem to have only one point agenda - prove somehow that Gurus wrote every single word to rub Hindus' collective nose in the dust. that a new 'dharam' was created the day Baba Nanak was born. after that day, everything should be seen in black and white, Sikh and Hindu. In other words, Baba Nanak and the following nine Gurus and Bhagats were born to divide.

Ugradanti would not be happy with such iconoclasts ;)

Your the one who again tried to promote some anti Sikh theory but as usual it only ended up back firing like that abortion and Banda Singh Bahadur topics you started. You started off in this topic trying present a half baked theory that this Bani was not included in Sri Dasam Granth because of a mistranslated Tukh which in fact lumps Hindus with the Muslims while promoting the teesar Panth Khalsa Dharm as being triumphant over them.

As for the mentioning of Hindu deities, well if Mr Das's way of interpreting scriptures is to be used, then those are not really the names of Hindu deities but they in fact have an alternative antreev meaning.

Anyway, maybe there was a real reason why the Sodhak committee did not include this composition in Sri Dasam Granth along with Guru Gobind Singh Jee's banis. But it certainly wasn't the reason you gave.

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Hahaha! No, i am not having nightmares. i am enjoying myself over the debate brainwashed hindu-haters are having. they now somehow wants us to believe that khalsa is a dharam which has been made to destroy mandirs and vedas and what not. Are these ultra bigots saying (if Khalsa is a Dharam in itself not just a panth) Sikhi is a fourth dharam? when Khalsas start destroying mandirs, would they start from harimandir?

Really interesting, the poet has written a poem in praise of 'Hindu deities' and then also written that they and their followers would be destroyed by 'Khalsa dharam'. can you show me just one instance PLEASE where word dharam has been used with either Sikh or khalsa anywhere in any Sikh scriptures? also, who was/is considered a Hindu in your opinion? what is a Ugradanti, kali, Naina Devi, Chandi, Bhavani et al upasak?

What kind of sikhi, gurmat you guys are following as you seem to have only one point agenda - prove somehow that Gurus wrote every single word to rub Hindus' collective nose in the dust. that a new 'dharam' was created the day Baba Nanak was born. after that day, everything should be seen in black and white, Sikh and Hindu. In other words, Baba Nanak and the following nine Gurus and Bhagats were born to divide.

Ugradanti would not be happy with such iconoclasts ;)

Maybe you should be reading the original texts rather than relying on RSS 'scholars' translations.

Uggardanti has not been accepted as the work of Guru Gobind Singh. It is generally accepted that it was written by Bhai Sukha Singh of Patna Sahib. It along with Vaar 41 of Bhai Gurdas II is how the Sikhs viewed the world in the 1700s. That a mighty conflict was taking place jn which the eventual victory would be of the Khalsa. This would entail the destruction of both the Hindu and Muslim religions. It is interesting given that the vast amount of the Khalsa was recruited from the ranks of adherents of the HIndus and yet these views were still held. The aim for destruction of the Muslim religion can be understood given the atrocities that were committed by the Muslim. The worship of the Devi ascribed to in both texts is also generally accepted to be an accretion from the personal beliefs of both authors as it doesn't exist in earlier writings such as Sri Guru Sobha.

These texts blow up the RSS theory of the Sikhs at that time of being a 'sword arm' of the Hindus and the Khalsa being created to 'save' the Hindus.

Edited by tonyhp32

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Hahaha! No, i am not having nightmares. i am enjoying myself over the debate brainwashed hindu-haters are having. they now somehow wants us to believe that khalsa is a dharam which has been made to destroy mandirs and vedas and what not. Are these ultra bigots saying (if Khalsa is a Dharam in itself not just a panth) Sikhi is a fourth dharam? when Khalsas start destroying mandirs, would they start from harimandir?

Really interesting, the poet has written a poem in praise of 'Hindu deities' and then also written that they and their followers would be destroyed by 'Khalsa dharam'. can you show me just one instance PLEASE where word dharam has been used with either Sikh or khalsa anywhere in any Sikh scriptures? also, who was/is considered a Hindu in your opinion? what is a Ugradanti, kali, Naina Devi, Chandi, Bhavani et al upasak?

What kind of sikhi, gurmat you guys are following as you seem to have only one point agenda - prove somehow that Gurus wrote every single word to rub Hindus' collective nose in the dust. that a new 'dharam' was created the day Baba Nanak was born. after that day, everything should be seen in black and white, Sikh and Hindu. In other words, Baba Nanak and the following nine Gurus and Bhagats were born to divide.

Ugradanti would not be happy with such iconoclasts ;)

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According to sant gurbachan singh ji katha he quoted from amar kosh where bhaugati is interpreted to have four theological meaning -

1. Akaal purkh including all sargun aspects (sargun and nirgun is one)

2. Kirpan- Sri Sahib

3. Bhagvati Chandi

4. Aad shakti

All four forms of interpertations are accepted depending on the context.

Neo tat khalsa always have got some insecurity issues and downplay stuff to please fascist right wing sikh groups and masses ... they want to confine parbhram into semetic abhramic interpretations. See all that would not have matter if they are honest seekers to understand divinity but they are no different than those rss bigots that they are fighting against.

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