Khalistan " The real truth"

[Guest]

All,

I'm going to start this thread to get feedback on khalistan. Lets see whats the truth behind this demand?

Main questions:

What is Khalistan?

Who is demanding it?

Please discuss it.

[LegendarySiKH]

Hm,

Khalistan means many things to different people.

To me, its not an independent country.

Khalistan is the name of the movement for rights for Sikhs in India.

Lets be honest, if Sikhs had their own country, it would be called Afghanistan^2.

Who demands Khalistan?

The people living outside of India who see sikhi dying in Punjab, because of government organized tactics. They see there brothers in India die harshly and fall victim to Hinduism.

I also see the Khalistan movement as some-what of the Singh Sabha Movement of 1873. Khalistanis attempt to re-establish the sikh identity and the sikh faith in India.

Khalistan, is a segment of sikhi in all our hearts.

Never forget 84.

[shere khalsa da]

Who demands Khalistan?

The people living outside of India who see sikhi dying in Punjab, because of government organized tactics. They see there brothers in India die harshly and fall victim to Hinduism

this aint true, u ask all the women who have been raped, all the men who have been tortured if they want a independant state or not, of course theyll say yes

[Hari]

Only true Khalsa, who have great love and respect for other religions and peoples could ever establish Khalistan.Only TRUE Khalsa.

[Guest]

I've read most of the responses so far this topic has and came to conclusion that its more of personal reason to raise our voice for Khalistan.

Now questions come to my mind and I hope someone will clarify them for me.

1. Who will lead Khalistan as country?

2. Are we going to have democracy?

3. Are we going to have the same conflicts of Gurbani Ragmala and meat eating issues?

4. What do we have for defense side of Khalistan? I mean if any other country attacks khalistan how are we going to save ourselves?

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

What is Khalistan? It is a place where the Khalsa reside. If the Khalsa are present, Khalistan will arise.

Who is demanding it? Guru Sahib. ""Raj bina na dharam challay hay!

Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" Words attributed to Dasm Patshah in Guru Partap Suraj Granth.

Who will lead Khalistan as country? The Khalsa, through its representatives, the Panj Pyare.

Are we going to have democracy? See above.

Are we going to have the same conflicts of Gurbani Ragmala and meat eating issues? These issues will be resolved in Khalistan.

What do we have for defense side of Khalistan? I mean if any other country attacks khalistan how are we going to save ourselves? The most lethal weapon of all time: Guru Di Kirpa. Remember "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh". The Khalsa is of the Akal Purakh...only the Almighty can destroy the Khalsa...no other power. History has proven that already.

Biggest thing needed is KHALSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Who is demanding it? Guru Sahib. ""Raj bina na dharam challay hay!

Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" Words attributed to Dasm Patshah in Guru Partap Suraj Granth.

I think veer ji you are confusing guroo's sahiban words. Correct me if i m wrong guroo ji mentioning Khalsa Raj (96 crore khalsa raj) all over the world which was a prophecy in sau sakhi rather an peace of land (Khalistan).

In my opnion khalsa doesnt restrict to an peace of land. Khalsa raj is raj without boundaries which will come true as it was said by guroo's sahiban.

I hope people concentrate more on bring youths into sikhism than singing "Khalistan Zindabad" in western countries.

What we need is more firm faith in our guroo's sahiban and less trust in all these Khalistani Propaganda. You think i m lying. Check out burning punjab website. The people who were khalistani in 80's are secret GOI spies now. Trusting them and following them is like hitting the nail on your foot.

[Guest]

Sat Sri Akal:

What is Khalistan? It is a place where the Khalsa reside. If the Khalsa are present, Khalistan will arise.

Who is demanding it? Guru Sahib. ""Raj bina na dharam challay hay!

Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" Words attributed to Dasm Patshah in Guru Partap Suraj Granth.

Who will lead Khalistan as country? The Khalsa, through its representatives, the Panj Pyare.

Are we going to have democracy? See above.

Are we going to have the same conflicts of Gurbani Ragmala and meat eating issues? These issues will be resolved in Khalistan.

What do we have for defense side of Khalistan? I mean if any other country attacks khalistan how are we going to save ourselves? The most lethal weapon of all time: Guru Di Kirpa. Remember "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh". The Khalsa is of the Akal Purakh...only the Almighty can destroy the Khalsa...no other power. History has proven that already.

Biggest thing needed is KHALSA

Who and What is a Khalsa?

"He who keeps alight the unquenchable torch of truth, and never swerves from the thought of One God; he who has full love and confidence in God and does not put his faith, even by mistake, in fasting or the graves of Muslim saints, Hindu crematoriums, or Jogis places of sepulchre; he who recognises the One God and no pilgrimages, alms-giving, non-destruction of life, penances, or austerities; and in whose heart the light of the Perfect One shines, - he is to be recognised as a pure member of the Khalsa" (Guru Gobind Singh, 33 Swaiyyas)

Now there is a difference between hate and not believing in something. Most of the Khalsa training camps are teaching how to hate others.

So, I see it quiet difficult to achieve that stage of life.

[Guest]

Who will lead Khalistan as country?

The Khalsa, through its representatives, the Panj Pyare.

Click below link to see online president of Khalistan.

http://www.khalistan.com/message1999.html

- One more president of Khalistan.

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

Waheguru Ji Ka Kalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Dear Cyber Sangat Ji

The demand for Khalistan is not a new demand or is it an anti Sikhi demand. We are quick to put things into small boxes to fit our thought process. If anyone studied the jeevan of the Singhs and Singhnia there only aim was to up hold justice and freedom. They knew themselves they would not be able to live in a free society; they became Shaheed for US. When it comes to looking and judging people was say lets take the good and not the bad, yet soon as the topic of Khalsa Raaj comes up we starting bringing in all the bad points like the egoistic so-called presidents, the people who sold the Singhs?singhnia down the drain. Cannot we look at the positives like the 1,000s of Gursikhs who laid down there lives defending Sikhi and there love for US and Guruji, Singhs and Singhnia who did there nitmen and amritvelas and then done Chandi Di Vaar and went into battle against all odds. Singhs and Singhnia who suffered untold torture yet they did not weep or break down,

Examples

Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagoka every bone in his body broken, hot rods but into his stomach

Bhai Anoak Singh Babbar his eyes where taken out,

Bhai Gurdev Singh Usmanwala hot iron pressed on his chest, boiled in hot water, because he wouldn’t go back on his Ardas he did at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib.

Bibi Resham Kaur and 6 month old baby. Tortured to death because she would not tell on the where abouts off her Singh. Baby was put on a block off ice and became shaheed.

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru

I could go on and on about the suffering and the GREATNESS ive seen in the past 15 odd years, ive taken time out to find out about these Sikhs my BROTHERS and SISTERS. I guess most off us r young and did not witness what happened and all u see before u are the left overs of the movement, these people that shout and scream, that’s all they do, but lets look deeper u will find the JEWELS the real Sikhs of the movement, it was a civil rights movement. Just because some manmucks call themselves leaders of Khalistan, that doesnot mean the demand or the movemet for khalistan would be run by these manmucks. Lets not rubbish the whole 25 years because we see a few idiots. Its like saying am not going to take amrit because we see others not practising Sikhi, lets look at those who do what Guru ji says.

I will give u the declaration of Khalistan as passed by the Sarbat Khalsa of 26th January 1986, held at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib. I think the Khalsa Panth has decided to form a independent state, not for any materialistic gains but just to get some peace, where we can live as Sikhs, as we cannot in India, yes we got in easy in the UK and the rest of the world. Just put yourself in the shoes off Shaheed Bhai Harjinder Singh Jinda & Shaheed Bhai Sukdev Singh Ji Sukha seeing everything before your eyes, Sri Akaal Takhat destroyed, Sangat Shaheed, Delhi massacres, the abuses in the villages, would ur conscious let u walk away and turn a blind eye?????? Would u not be in the same position off those KHALISTANIS???? Its easy with hindsight and see all the bad points, but HEY there was a lot off LOVE for Sikhi

Let me end with this example

A old Singh, his son was with the Singhs the youth was living under ground, the cops would come to the old Singhs house pick him up torture him, after a few days of beatings he would be let out, then month or so later they would come again the same thing would happen this happened over a few years he would just have enough time to recover from one torture the other would start, I looked puzzled at him I said “bhai sahib, why dnt u run away instead of getting tortured every few months, he look at me and pointed to his wife and daughters and SAID IF I WAS NOT HERE THEY WOULD PICK THEM UP. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM?????

Just one thought came to me Dhan Guru Ki Sikhi and Dhan Guru Ka Sikh,

Then he told me about one Gursikh he used to be in a cell next to his, he never saw him, the police would come torture him for hours but I would never hear a peep from him when they went, all I would hear is Gurbani, we would do parth together, but one day I heard a mighty roar and then 2 gun shots, I later found out that the Gursikh could take all the beatings and torture but when the police cut his Kesh he defended himself and was shot dead. This is REAL LOVE for Sikhi it comes from Guruji himself.

So when next time we look at the socalled Khalistanis remember the unknow GURSIKHS who gave their all but did not give up there Sikhi.

May be one day I too will have that LOVE inside me and do some sewa for Guruji

Hope I have not offended any one, I do get upset when my bros and sistas make statements and don’t understand what these souls did for us, if it was not for them I wouldn’t have come into Sikhi, I owe them my life as without Sikhi I would have been a drugie

Raaj Karega Khalsa

Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib JI

AKAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL

Quams footsolider

sukdev

[Guest]

Sukdev Singh Jhamka,

Can you anwser questions? And please keep that emotional/political part out of this discussion because Khalistan demand should not be based on revenge and if it does then we sikhs need to read about Gurus life and what they did when they had the worst situation than this.

You're trying to convey message that we don't know what really happend in 1984 but we all know it very well so please go ahead anwser my questions so we can have healthy discussion.

[Guest]

Waheguru Ji Ka Kalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Dear Cyber Sangat Ji

The demand for Khalistan is not a new demand or is it an anti Sikhi demand.

I don't know why but im getting this idea from your posts that you are trying to show that you are the only one who has sympathy for 1984 and others have no knowledge about it.

I know very well that this demand was started three times jagjeet Singh's [1973], Baba jarnail singh's [1978] and simranjit maan's [1984] so please don't assume things and be in reality.

We are quick to put things into small boxes to fit our thought process.

Please stick to your thoughts and don't do the same because this discussion just started.

If anyone studied the jeevan of the Singhs and Singhnia there only aim was to up hold justice and freedom. They knew themselves they would not be able to live in a free society; they became Shaheed for US.

Yes, we all know about this.

When it comes to looking and judging people was say lets take the good and not the bad, yet soon as the topic of Khalsa Raaj comes up we starting bringing in all the bad points like the egoistic so-called presidents, the people who sold the Singhs?singhnia down the drain.

Stick to your words and be a true Sikh who is willing to fight for sikh human rights don't try to twist words. I know very well what our Singhs and singhnia have done in ancient times and also in 80s so you don't need to repeat it but you have to accept this reality that now they've gone so we have to talk about the ones are alive.

Cannot we look at the positives like the 1,000s of Gursikhs who laid down there lives defending Sikhi and there love for US and Guruji, Singhs and Singhnia who did there nitmen and amritvelas and then done Chandi Di Vaar and went into battle against all odds. Singhs and Singhnia who suffered untold torture yet they did not weep or break down,

When I was young I used to hear this slogan "you give me blood and I'll get you freedom" and it was said by "Subash Chander boss" who was a freedom fighter for india. Now what happend to him nobody knows and its still mystery. So, our singhs and kaurs laid down their lives so we should be ready to do it but whats the end to this or our destination? Please, come out from this because I have had a lot of this and be real and anwser the questions.

Bhai Kulwant Singh Nagoka every bone in his body broken, hot rods but into his stomach Bhai Anoak Singh Babbar his eyes where taken out, Bhai Gurdev Singh Usmanwala hot iron pressed on his chest, boiled in hot water, because he wouldn’t go back on his Ardas he did at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib. Bibi Resham Kaur and 6 month old baby. Tortured to death because she would not tell on the where abouts off her Singh. Baby was put on a block off ice and became shaheed.

We all know about it but then you are wrong in Khalistan's demand because if our reason to raise voice for khalistan is on revenge to and its against Sikhism's teachings. I would suggest you read "Dharam Yudh" post in which Guru ji has given straight order that we should not have revenge feelings for anyone. I think Guru Gobind singh ji had worst time than us but still when I see his "Zafarnama" it tells me clearly that why he was so strong because he was true khalsa.

I could go on and on about the suffering and the GREATNESS ive seen in the past 15 odd years, ive taken time out to find out about these Sikhs my BROTHERS and SISTERS. I guess most off us r young and did not witness what happened and all u see before u are the left overs of the movement, these people that shout and scream, that’s all they do, but lets look deeper u will find the JEWELS the real Sikhs of the movement, it was a civil rights movement. Just because some manmucks call themselves leaders of Khalistan, that doesnot mean the demand or the movemet for khalistan would be run by these manmucks. Lets not rubbish the whole 25 years because we see a few idiots.

Brother all Singhs and singhnia are gone now we have these people so be in reality and don't ignore them. We are going to have these people with us or other leaders of ours. We are not looking for fantasy land where white horse fly but Khalistan a land of pures.

Its like saying am not going to take amrit because we see others not practising Sikhi, lets look at those who do what Guru ji says.

You are naive enough to make this comparison. Khalistan is a demand to establish Sikh country as per Sikhs, if im not mistaken, and it will show unity of sikhism, so if there is no unity then we need to question first unity within out panth. What's your feedback?

I will give u the declaration of Khalistan as passed by the Sarbat Khalsa of 26th January 1986, held at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib. I think the Khalsa Panth has decided to form a independent state, not for any materialistic gains but just to get some peace, where we can live as Sikhs, as we cannot in India, yes we got in easy in the UK and the rest of the world.

When did you go to India last time? I went last year and I didn't see if any sikh made complaint that they were having hard time living in India. Howcome you're so sure about million of sikh's situation in india? Also, what good Uk, Canada and US sikhs have done for sikhs? Fights in Gurdwaras? Building new Gurdwaras to earn more money? Gurdwaras on their castes and community names?

What's your feedback?

Just put yourself in the shoes off Shaheed Bhai Harjinder Singh Jinda & Shaheed Bhai Sukdev Singh Ji Sukha seeing everything before your eyes, Sri Akaal Takhat destroyed, Sangat Shaheed, Delhi massacres, the abuses in the villages, would ur conscious let u walk away and turn a blind eye?????? Would u not be in the same position off those KHALISTANIS???? Its easy with hindsight and see all the bad points, but HEY there was a lot off LOVE for Sikhi

Sikh raj or Khalistan as per Sikhism should not be based on revenge. Where are you coming from? Can you prove that its ok to have revenge and make it a purpose of our Khalistan demand? Provide me with scripture references or example of Gurus life?

Thanks!

Let me end with this example

A old Singh, his son was with the Singhs the youth was living under ground, the cops would come to the old Singhs house pick him up torture him, after a few days of beatings he would be let out, then month or so later they would come again the same thing would happen this happened over a few years he would just have enough time to recover from one torture the other would start, I looked puzzled at him I said “bhai sahib, why dnt u run away instead of getting tortured every few months, he look at me and pointed to his wife and daughters and SAID IF I WAS NOT HERE THEY WOULD PICK THEM UP. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM?????

Just one thought came to me Dhan Guru Ki Sikhi and Dhan Guru Ka Sikh,

Then he told me about one Gursikh he used to be in a cell next to his, he never saw him, the police would come torture him for hours but I would never hear a peep from him when they went, all I would hear is Gurbani, we would do parth together, but one day I heard a mighty roar and then 2 gun shots, I later found out that the Gursikh could take all the beatings and torture but when the police cut his Kesh he defended himself and was shot dead. This is REAL LOVE for Sikhi it comes from Guruji himself.

Dhan Guru ki Sikhi? movement of revenge?

So when next time we look at the socalled Khalistanis remember the unknow GURSIKHS who gave their all but did not give up there Sikhi.

They are part of this movement, the ones you call singhs and singnia are gone. What's up?

May be one day I too will have that LOVE inside me and do some sewa for Guruji

Best of luck.

Hope I have not offended any one, I do get upset when my bros and sistas make statements and don’t understand what these souls did for us, if it was not for them I wouldn’t have come into Sikhi, I owe them my life as without Sikhi I would have been a drugie

Well, you didn't offend me but you are running away from real topic and want to insert emotional and revengeful political comments to this thread and want to mixup things.

[Guest]

Here is the dhram yudh post- http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1441

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahegur Ji Ki Fateh

veerji said

Well, you didn't offend me but you are running away from real topic and want to insert emotional and revengeful political comments to this thread and want to mixup things.

dear bhai sahib ji

u seem to have tooken about words and ripped them apart i bow down to ur wisdom, am no historian or educated person. You can think of me as u please. am just a foot solider all i can talk of my experience and what i know, as for all the questions ive not got all the answers or am i in a postion.

If u think ive got revenge in me i might have then again Guru ji sent Baba Banda Singh to avenge the Shaheedi of the sahibzada, didnot Guru Hargbind Sahib Ji take chandu in the markets and got the people to hit him with their shoes, did Guru Ji not pick up arms to defend Sikhi?? Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji tell the Sikhs to pick up weapons to defend Sikhi, did not BHai Sukha Singh & Methab Singh Ji chop the head of messa rangar for the crimes he comitted in Darbar Sahib?? u might not call it revenge call it what u want, I call it JUSTICE i see no difference between Bhai Sukha Singh or Bhai Harjinder Singh Jinda.

i might be off the topic sorry if i am, but am sure some one out there will answer ur questions but am sure u know the answer to them.

The Singhs and Singhnia r still with us they are amongst us, we dnt know when Guru Ji will give kirpa to any 1 off us.

As for going to punjab ive never been sorry

As for living in fansty land i might be but am glad my fansty is to be with the Shaheeds

bhul kuck marf

sukdev

[Guest]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahegur Ji Ki Fateh

veerji said

Well, you didn't offend me but you are running away from real topic and want to insert emotional and revengeful political comments to this thread and want to mixup things.

dear bhai sahib ji

u seem to have tooken about words and ripped them apart i bow down to ur wisdom, am no historian or educated person. You can think of me as u please. am just a foot solider all i can talk of my experience and what i know, as for all the questions ive not got all the answers or am i in a postion.

I'm also a lay man if you are concerned but discussion doesn't hurt when you and me are from the same panth.

If u think ive got revenge in me i might have then again Guru ji sent Baba Banda Singh to avenge the Shaheedi of the sahibzada, didnot Guru Hargbind Sahib Ji take chandu in the markets and got the people to hit him with their shoes

Waheguru! now you brought sikh Gurus and comparing them to our situation which is more of political. But I will anwser your post as per my knowledge. Brother there is a difference in punishment and taking revenge. Are you stating that we are Gurus same Guru Gobind singh and whatever we are doing is right same Guru Gobind singh ji? Or in simple word your above lines are showing that you are stating that Singhs were Gurus by himself? I didn't get the real meaning so you might want to elaborate. Guru ji punsihed them and that's it. Did he establish any country?

did Guru Ji not pick up arms to defend Sikhi?? Did not Guru Gobind Singh Ji tell the Sikhs to pick up weapons to defend Sikhi

First of all, get it straight that Guru ji were not fighting for Sikhs only. Guru ji faught against injustice which was happening to humanity. He was not fighting for hindus, sikhs or muslims but humanity.

did not BHai Sukha Singh & Methab Singh Ji chop the head of messa rangar for the crimes he comitted in Darbar Sahib??

Yes, and how do you relate that bravery to Khalistan movement of these days?

u might not call it revenge call it what u want, I call it JUSTICE i see no difference between Bhai Sukha Singh or Bhai Harjinder Singh Jinda.

If you don't see any difference then I don't want you to see any.

i might be off the topic sorry if i am, but am sure some one out there will answer ur questions but am sure u know the answer to them.

No, I don't know the anwser but I know the worst situation of Sikh panth we have right now. I want everyone to come forward and enlighten us that why should we support khalistan now? This is what im asking...

As for going to punjab ive never been sorry

Go visit Punjab and see the environment by yourself. Don't just assume things or see situation through Internet world.

bhul kuck marf

sukdev

There is neither Bhul nor Chuk so don't worry about it. All we are trying to have one discussion to understand this concept of Khalistan that's all. If you can then we will be grateful to you or we will wait till someone else comes and enlighten us.

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

why question a hukumn from akaal takht sahib

" a sikh is not a sikh if he/she is not a khalistani"

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

For those who oppose the concept of a Sikh state.

I am afraid it's creation is

as inevitable as is the break up of the huge social experiment known as

india, one way or another be it in the aftermath of nuclear war with

Pakistan or other means.

Khalistan to me is a place where Sikhs will be able to practice their faith without fear

of persecution or the meddling of other's who will use religion in

furtherance of their own agenda. Where Sikhs will not be under the constant

pressure of assimilation and where they can except to be treated fairly by

all societies institutions, importantly a place where they are gauged by

their treatment of their minorities.

Many people who miss the point say "how do we know it would be run properly" well I would simply

say they couldn't do a worse job then india has in the past fifty odd years.

Remember the struggle continues, it can take decades, it can take

different form's whether its the AK or the ballot box depends more on the

global picture at the time. Most Sikhs at least support the

concept whether it be as an ideology or a reaction to the indian state

injustice against the Sikhs over the past twenty years and more but there is

at this time a great deal of general apathy.To return to the groundswell of

support of the mid and late eighties will require the indians to commit

another huge and public atrocity against the Sikh nation unfortunately this

is not a question of if but when.

There is no one in their right mind who would want to see this happen but as

I have said it is as inevitable as the reaction. I listen to some Sikhs say that

they do not support 'Khalistan' in some ways the term has been so maligned

by the power's that by over such a long period I am not surprised, but if

they do not support the creation of a independent Sikh state than they are

simply waiting to be dealt another blow by a state that cares nothing for

it's minorities least of all those that it considers 'the enemy within'

There is of course, to india, a acceptable Sikh identity as espoused by the

popular media of the day which wastes no time in remodelling the Sikh ethos

to fit indias need and there is no doubt there are those who feel that we

can forget the past and carry on but for all their good intentions they are

missing the point.

Our future is not dependent on our behaviour towards the majority rather it

is the reverse our future is dependent on their behaviour towards us. You

know the real irony of the 84 Sikh massacres in Delhi? The victims were the

indian text book Sikhs largely Hindi speaking, non-secessionist urbanites

more partial to the Mahabharat than any talk of Sikh sovereignty, they

considered themselves indians, did that help/save them?

You know the answer to that question, you see regardless of their attempts at

integration they were considered different, aliens if you will, to be taught

a lesson and of course clearly visible as Sikhs.

Do you think its history? Well here's food for thought a assassin not a Sikh

but dressed in the bana of a Sikh assassinates Mr Vajpayee tomorrow what do

you think will be the result?

Im sure you know but forsaking pointing out the obvious I will tell you,

thousands more Sikhs murdered, burned, more Sikh children orphaned or worse,

widescale rape of Sikh women and girls the burning and looting of their

homes, shops and gurudwara. All this while the apparatus of the state stands

by or in many cases joins in the 'fun'.

Like it or not this is the reality for Sikhs in that country, I for one do

not want my community to be left to that sort of unpredictable vulnerability

and anyone that does is clearly not in their right mind. You see for me the

Sikh state is not a question of desire but one of necessity we must protect

ourselves for if we cannot how can we protect anyone?

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

P.S. Moderators (N30, TruthSingh) your views on the issue are crystal clear.

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

TruthSingh

The movement for Khalistan can easily be traced back to 1849, the first Sikh war for independence when the British had broken their treaty to protect Maharaja Duleep Singh. The 2nd Anglo-Sikh was the first war of independence fought against the British and not the mutiny. The movement of Bhai Maharaj Singh, the attempt by Maharaja Duleep Singh to get his kingdom back with Russia help, the Babbar Akalis, the Sikh state resolution of the Akalis in 1946, Sikh State Movement of Master Tara Singh in 1969, Jagjit Singh Chohan 1971, Khalistan movement 1980's to now.

The movement for Khalistan has been with the Sikhs for the last 150 years. It has ebbed and flowed, it been a spark on occasion and a flame on others.

[Guest]

I don't think that if you support Khalistan then you are a better sikh. I went to India last year and I tried to see if Sikhs in Punjab want to see the same. Most of them got mad at me for asking question related to Khalistan. One of them said it on my face that if im getting money from ISI because most of the sikhs living in the western countries love to throw slogan against India after their evening consumption of alcohal.

Now for me Khalistan movement is not that important because like m514 said that for Khalistan we need Khalsa and there is no Khalsa left to begin with. You should visit India and see how badly our youth is getting into drugs. Most of them don't even know what our Gurus have done and what our sikh history is... They love being Jazzy bains and Harbhajan mann of "Ji aayin nu" but they don't care much about Sikh Shaeeds. Whose fault is this? It's our fault my friends because we are more concerned about piece of land but there is no prachar to make true Khalsa.

We can see through this forum that how hard it is to have one single panth. I ask people the ones try to show that if they support Khalistan then they are true sikhs that go to India and ask any Sikh in Punjab about Khalistan and they will get mad at you. All they think of you terrorist getting paid from Pakistan. You can go on and on for Khalistan but see the image you have within your own panth.

Image counts in this world, if you want to prove something and because of this internal politics western sikhs have lost that image.

I don't care much about going back to India because im happy living outside of India. Sikhs are living in India peacefully, this is the impression I saw when I visited India. I asked around 50 Sikhs and most of them were mad at me and told me that its easy to throw slogans when you are living 4000 miles away.

They are living peacefully in India and they don't care about what we western Sikhs want because all they call us "coward" sitting in western countries and throwing slogan against India and making their life worst.

After my visit of India last year I came to this conclusion that if Sikhs tie up with other miniorities of India then they will become majority and there won't be any problem. Just take the example of Delhi Sikhs, they are able to make Punjabi the second language when on the other hand in sikhs majority state Punjab been trying for it for long time and main reason for their failure is that they have no unity within Sikhs and as well as others living in Punjab.

P.S. Moderators (N30, TruthSingh) your views on the issue are crystal clear.

Sukhbir, If you think that it makes one a better sikh if he supports our dirty politicians then let me make it more crystal clear that I don't support them. I have a great respect for the Shaeeds but not for these western "slogan" throwing leaders.

To me (if any one cares about it in this debate) Khalistan is purely symbolic. Its a place where a Sikh can go when he or she wants to be in touch with God. "Raj karega Khalsa" is not a political statement, its a spiritual statement. Although i can see why sikhs want a separate country, it'd only end up a political disaster (another israel-palestine). do we really want that? i certainly don't. khalistan is in my heart, where god lives. not on this physical earth.

[malwadoabamajha]

khalistan appears at the moment to be a passion than ground reality in panjab. eg hindus make up 40 percent of the population in panjab. What role wud they play in a khalistan? wud they have any political clout? wud khalistan be democratic or just based on religious principles that r set up by man or groups?

we need to expand upon this khalistan issue more than just a sikh homeland cos its not like that in panjab and it never has been even if u ask ur grandparents there were proprtions of all religions there bak even 100 years ago. I understand the dire need of economical rehabilitation, religious rights of sikhs in panjab and the need of a set up where sikhs can practice their faith and live with real freedom given from god , but theres questions that need to be answered how khalistan wud be on the ground. how can we rely on agriculture alone to get us by?

we need various industry , ports were can import export goods, but panjab doesnt have that..a nation of 20 million, how many wud be willing to man border upon border on all 4 sides facing hostility? ( dont forget theres sikhs serving in indian army in kashmir do u think the kashmiris will forget? and will the paks 4get?) type in " operation tupac" on yahoo search, the pakistan military planned to overtake panjab 10 years ago once kashmir went. if that happened what wud have become of the sikhs if they fought back? and with what?

recently there were caste wars in one pind of panjab, why are there villages still existing with members of certain castes grouped up? why isnt there a mixture and total equality the kind that satguru guru gobind singh ji had in mind? if we cant work towards living his principles then how can we say we want a khalistan a state based on purity of faith when we r ridden with caste problems? the very core start wud be us making a social change with all panjabis and break these caste barriers down we can do that now, we dont need to send 300 000 sikhs to die for a khalistan to achieve that..what we left with a shorter p[opulation closer to extinction..

how will a seperate panjab or khalistan govern? and will it be fair to all which i personally believe is what our guru ji had in mind.

very soon the water in panjab is running down so many other economical problems, lack of state education funding, we need control of our water supply and ecomony, more autonomy wud be a step closer and i feel wud be a short term answer to our problems experiment with that..and wud avoid the cost of human lives..

for those who talk about martydoms try visiting the mothers and fathers of slain gursikhs, they died for the orders of politicians who advovcated khalistan then went bak to india and live in mansions. while the parents, children brothers sisters, of those who died r living with loss, grief, frustration, their children didnt need to die. little kids have to grow up without fathers and mothers in panjab, whos gonna help them? whos seen the state of the sikhs in west delhis refuge colonies?? we need democratic automony that wudnt take more lives and keeps both sides happy, no one is cutting up the country and at the same time sikhs and hindu panjabis have more democracy to govern their affairs , safegaurd their rights, promote growth of society and the economy and live in tolerance with all mankind as well as having a great voice to demonstate internationally against both india and pakistan to become nuclear weopons free region, which in the event of war panjab wud have been the first casualty being placed in the middle.

if u look at the start of the khalistan issue in the post british era it was about inequality against sikhs and panjabis, the state responded believeing their was a threat against their nation, so what cud be the solution to keep both sides happy? autonomy within india. hence no ones unhappy :-)

[Guest]

Very nice brother and your and mine views are same...

Thanks!

[Aman Singh]

1. Who will lead Khalistan as country?

NO one, since there are so many groups who declare them self khalistani. When they will get khalistan , they all are going to fight with each other to become the ruler, may be they kill each other too. If they kill then no one will left to rule. Situation will become more worst. If we can't live together then forget the khalistan. Even in a small gurudwara, we always fight to beomce the president , they imagine , if they are ready to kill each other just to take over the gurudwara ,then think about khalistan..

2. Are we going to have democracy?

NO, we won't have any democracy. Our leaders don't want the khalistan , the only thing they want is the publicity. They dont' care about others. We will be into more problems, like caste problem, being poor and rich problem, being small sikh and big sikhs. who will rule who???

3. Are we going to have the same conflicts of Gurbani Ragmala and meat eating issues?

No, At least this will be good. They won't touch this issue. Its not a job of government , its a religious issue. If they will be smart enough they will will touch this issues only for thier own purpose, which mean geting votes.

4. What do we have for defense side of Khalistan? I mean if any other country attacks khalistan how are we going to save ourselves?

We are khalsa. We will die and never show our backs. Only our leaders will live,cuz they will surrender to them , and the rest of the pure khalsa will fight.

I am not against khalistan and not even in favor. When we talk about khalistan then we should remember one thing, Guru Gobind Singh JI. Who didn't creat khalistan but khalsa. If we really want khalistan today, they don't try to make khalistan , make khalsa only. Then u will get the khalistan automatically.

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

read the constituion of khalistan, all ur concerns are answered their...

plz message me if u need it

wahegurooo

its needed for the global balance and stopping of genocide of sikhs and other religions around the globe

[malwadoabamajha]

till sikhs become sikhs where is this khalsa stan? till sikhs throw away these caste labels, caste gurdwara segregation caste wars caste villages, then how can this khalsastan come when we dont even mix between ourselves with the social cohesion propounded by guru ji. shraab vice what not on the ground level where is khalistan coming from?? thin air?

a just demand or not, does that tally with the situationof panjab today and will it contribute to the betterment of the panth until we sort ourselves out ?. What are these leaders doing in the westenr countires crying khalistan when we have multiple sects, youth on drugs, crime prostituition in west delhis slums, corruption at the highest levels down to society. If these leaders want a khalistan then let us see them first make a change to the sikh society without that how can there be a khalistan which is defined as " land of the pure". how can this land come practically unless steps are taken to work towards it individually collectively? sant attar singh has foretold everything will be sorted out when each one of us get up in the morning do amritvela and simran in response to the state of political affairs of the sikh nation. if these leaders call themselves as such they shud be working amongst the sikh masses as the greats of the time have done.

guru Gobind Singh ji moulded a sikh as a practical person who would counter anything in kaal not people sitting there making tall claims on how things shud be, his sikhs went out and made that difference to society, did seva on various levels that created an impact on society arouind them regardless of caste creed tribe race religion.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

till Sikhs become Sikhs where is this khalsa stan? till Sikhs throw away

these caste labels, caste gurdwara segregation caste wars caste villages,

then how can this khalsastan come when we dont even mix between ourselves

with the social cohesion propounded by guru ji. shraab vice what not on the

ground level where is khalistan coming from?? thin air?

Were people asking these question's when india was created? Was there a debate into the state of the adherence to Islam amongst Muslims when Pakistan became a reality?

The answer in both these cases is a resounding no.

Are the Kashmiris agonising over the level of apostasy amongst its youth? Are they concerned about the increasing level's of drug addiction and alcoholism?

The answer to both of these questions is of course, yes. BUT. Do they feel that these are reasons not to continue their demand's for independence? NO.

You see all of the objections made in this thread by poster's seem to fall into a few broad categories the primary objection seems to be the idea that in order to demand a Sikh state we must all first become 'good Sikhs' a stipulation that neither india or Pakistan or Bangladesh or any other nation on earth has ever applied to itself at the time of their conception

First and foremost the majority of Panjab's social 'ill's' today are not simply a 'sign of the times' as many would like us to believe, for the information of the reader I visit the Panjab every year and have done since I was around ten years old, at the insistence of my father, the point being that I have seen the gradual change of life and attitudes as well as the impact of the 'troubles' and what that has meant to the 'average Panjabi'.

Posters in this thread have talked about the apostasy amongst young Sikhs this is widely regarded as a result of the high levels of drug addiction and alcohol dependence amongst Panjabi youth, I doubt many would disagree but are you aware that it has been indian government policy that has helped orchestrate this terrible situation?

According to the OUTLOOK magazine two recent studies of Punjab's drug problem have produced horrific figures. OUTLOOK magazine reports that a preliminary study conducted by the Punjab State Health Department in March shows the extent of the problem:- "More than 40 per cent of the youth between the ages of 15 to 25 are addicts. In Doaba and Majha regions 65 per cent of homes have, at least, one addict. About 48 per cent of farmers and labourers are drug addicts. Multiple drug abuse is common." Outlook quotes another survey by the Institute for Development and Communication (IDC), a Chandigarh-based research organisation, which has more worrisome figures. Giving a break-up of the drug abuse pattern in the three major geographical areas of Punjab, its study says that percentage of households affected by drug abuse is 61 per cent in Majha, 64 per cent in Malwa and 68 per cent in the Doaba."

'Dogra' (Journalist who wrote the article) says in his OUTLOOK article that, "Drug abuse is rampant in urban slum clusters like Maqboolpura, on the outskirts of Amritsar. There are several families there which have lost their men to narcotics. Says Ajit Singh, a school teacher and activist who has been campaigning against drug abuse." Dogra reports that the Taran Taran district is now infamous for its drug addicts.( Is it coincidence that this particular area was once famous for the numbers of young fighters that it prouduced for the Panjabi resistance?) In its sub-division of 400-odd villages, scores of young men turn up every fortnight to the six de-addiction centres set up by a local NGO, the Guru Arjun Dev Charitable Trust. The manager of the trust, Dr J.P. Singh, admits this effort is too small to cope with the burgeoning problem as he has to turn away many people due to lack of space as virtually every second young male from his village takes drugs in one form or the other."

As a comparative similair high levels of drug and alcohol availability and addiction can be seen amongst the Christian tribes of North Eastern India who, like the Sikhs, want to establish a sovereign buffer state between Myanmar, India, Bangladesh and China. It is not coincidental that thousands of 'chemists', 'Daaktars' and registered medical practitioners (RMPS) have been issued goverment licences and proliferated into almost every village of the Punjab. Many RMPS peddle opium-based drugs (dexavion capsules, morphine or natural opium) without prescriptions. According to the OUTLOOK, "young people in rural Punjab are now getting caught in a deadly drug trap.

"Its once-robust youngmen known for their boundless physical energy and strength have become shadows of their former selves."

So much suffering is it any wonder that the people of the Panjab have lost hope? The last time I was there about nine months ago five young men/boys from two villages in close proximity to mine took there own lives within a six week period , two had died before my arrival the other three whilst I was there not one of them was over twenty five, all farmers boy's, they drank industrial pesticide, one of the boys had left a note where he simply apologised to his family. As I was to find out this is a fairly recent phenomenon but it is quite widespread and increasingly regular.

IMAGINE

Imagine a Sikh nation representing the Sikhs at the United Nations does this not fill you with awe? Imagine how more able we would have been to protect our brothers and sisters following 09/11 from attack then the empty lip service of Vajpayee and his cronies. Imagine the profile of Sikhi and how it would be raised onto the international platform, imagine writing our own 'true' history rather than have it subverted by the history revisionists of Hindutva, imagine the joy of being a Sikh in a nation that you could call your own, imagine the pride in knowing that minorities hindu,Muslim,Christian etc. are safe in your country.

The only people that will tell you that this is not achievable are those that do not wish you to achieve it. A Sikh state would create a whole new generation of vibrant Sikhs, those whom had strayed from the path would again be filled with self confidence and hope. Anyone that knows about addiction will tell you that lack of self confidence and hope are addictions bed fellows.

The point that seems to be missed here by some posters, to repeat myself, is that it is not the attitude or the behaviour of the Sikhs within india that will determine their future within that country it is the attitude and behaviour of the majority. 1984 was a major wake up call to the Sikhs it was far from the first and it has been followed by nineteen years of further genocide. It is frankly beyond comprehension that any Sikh's should consider themselves to be equal citizens within india.

I would urge all of those that consider 1984 as history to remember that the carnage and injustice carries on unabated, the likes of Sajjan Kumar have been acquitted and declared innocent only this very year. These are historic times for the Sikhs and they are taking place here and now not in some far off place or time.

We talk of the tyranny of the Moguls and the injustice of that period, we have been and continue to be in a far worse position within india at this time, for example, the Mogul regime did not feign justice to 'rub salt into the wounds' of the victims, the Mogul regime did not deny its crimes and claim innocence, the Mogul regime did not raise organisations in the garb of Sikhs to try and subvert our religion, the Mogul regime did not covertly corrupt our youth with drugs, The Mogul regime did not sponsor books that malign our religion, the Mogul regime did not cover up their crimes to belie their terror to history.

In the history of the Sikhs up until this point no administration, government or state has committed the level and range of atrocities against the Sikh people, culture, history and religion as has been committed by the modern indian state and yet we find amongst us those who wish to remain within this 'union' are we masochists?

Or are we unable to learn from our mistakes?

Can I ask those that are opposed like 'Truth' what would it take for you decide that the future of the Sikhs as a people no longer rests within the framework of the modern indian state?

Because I for one cannot envisage anything worse than that which has already taken place, If what had happened in Delhi had happened in London how many of us would consider ourselves British? If after nineteen years we saw the politicians of the day who had openly taken part in the carnage walk free from the old bailey and continue as MP's would we want to live in this country?

Believe it or not there were indians who objected to the idea of indian independence from the British so this sort of stance is nothing new, in many ways they had what would be considered to be a just argument in the same vein as a earlier post as to the economic viability of such a change. The fact of the matter was that the British had created india's infrastructure as well as instituting a vastly superior system of government, education and the rule of law, india cannot claim to have done anything like this for the Panjab.

But the fact remained that the vast majority of people who lived within British india wanted the British out because they wanted the right to self determination, it must also be remembered that ultimately any empire is created not for the betterment of the indigenous population but for the benefit of the empire builder, if as a result the country is improved then that really is a secondary consideration.

Sukhbir, If you think that it makes one a better Sikh if he supports our

dirty politicians then let me make it more crystal clear that I don't

support them. I have a great respect for the Shaeeds but not for these

western "slogan" throwing leaders.

To me (if any one cares about it in this debate) Khalistan is purely

symbolic. Its a place where a Sikh can go when he or she wants to be in

touch with God. "Raj karega Khalsa" is not a political statement, its a

spiritual statement. Although i can see why sikhs want a separate country,

it'd only end up a political disaster (another israel-palestine). do we

really want that? i certainly don't. khalistan is in my heart, where god

lives. not on this physical earth.

I have never equated supporting the concept of a soverign Sikh nation with being a 'better Sikh' If you believe I have written such a statement then I would like you to show me.

Truth how much do you know about the Israeli Palestinian situation? No offence but I suggest not a great deal the two situations are hugely different to make any 'real' comparison other than a cosmetic one would be pointless. One point I would make though is if you have ever met a Palestinian you would not be able to deny the determination, passion, vigour and love that person has to free his home, truly in the spirit of 'placing one's head on one's palm'.

As for ending up as a political disaster, most commentators agree that the most likely arena for the world's first nuclear war at this time is the indo/pak situation, how's that for a political disaster?

Another question who would suffer the most,(Sikhs) yes, no change their then, if we were already a sovereign nation, then today we would have a say in a situation that could wipe the Sikhs as a people off the face of the earth but since we are part and parcel of india we have no say whatsoever.

'Truth' a Sikh state maybe purely symbolic to you but that doesn't hold a great deal of water if your hanging upside down in a police station whilst your 'fellow countrymen' try and push cigarettes into your mouth because they know its against your faith.

Further 'Raj Karega Khalsa' is an entirely political as well as spiritual statement, I noticed N30 explaining Guru ji's word's and wondered how much clarification is needed for such a clear statement of the truth.

Who is demanding it? Guru Sahib. ""Raj bina na dharam challay hay!

Dharam bina sabh dlaay mallay hay!" Words attributed to Dasm Patshah in Guru

Partap Suraj Granth.

I think veer ji you are confusing guroo's sahiban words. Correct me if i m

wrong guroo ji mentioning Khalsa Raj (96 crore khalsa raj) all over the

world which was a prophecy in sau sakhi rather an peace of land (Khalistan).

In my opnion khalsa doesnt restrict to an peace of land.

The key words here are 'in your opinion' N30 and in my opinion you are entirely wrong, a basic understanding of political systems will show that what Guruji is referring to is the internationally accepted system by which all government's have and continue to run their affairs.

--"SHATAR KE ADHIN

HEH RAJ, RAJ BINA NEH DHARAM CHELE, DHARAM BINA SAB DALE MARAN HE".

Without the might of weapons there can be no rule, without rule you cannot practice your faith(be that a religion or in the case of the US democracy, or any ideology), without faith nothing can go well. (of course one mans faith is another's ideology but the principal remains)

Without a temporal Raj there cannot be a spiritual Raj the concept of 'Miri and Piri' is well established. Often detractors talk of a 'piece of land' as if this is a base and material demand which has no place in matters of faith. I would like to remind those who align themselves to this notion that we are human beings we cannot exist without food and water, both material objects, do you consider those to be base and below spiritual consideration?

Khalsa raj is raj

without boundaries which will come true as it was said by guroo's sahiban.

I hope people concentrate more on bring youths into sikhism than singing

"Khalistan Zindabad" in western countries.

What we need is more firm faith in our guroo's sahiban and less trust in all

these Khalistani Propaganda. You think i m lying. Check out burning punjab

website. The people who were khalistani in 80's are secret GOI spies now.

Trusting them and following them is like hitting the nail on your foot.

Further talk of dirty politicians and goverment spies, which goverment? The government of india, so were back to the same place then, namely india. I don't see how the concept of a Sikh state should become invalid because the indian government has recruited 'patsy's to subvert, malign and discredit the 'movement' was this not what they wanted to achieve?

Its a source of astonishment to me when I hear Sikhs say "well I don't support the creation of a Sikh state because they are just a bunch of hypocrites, dirty politicians and government agents." I mean yes of course, but to whom do they owe their conception? Why does the government want them there? So you will say exactly what you have just said. "I don't support the concept of a Sikh state".

Indian government, mission accomplished.

You do not have to follow any politicians or particular organisations to believe in the 'right' of a Sikh state the fact that you believe its creation is right and just is enough to worry the powers that be, remember the AK is not the only way (see below).

Kashmir Singh with Spelman: making common cause

UK SIKHS

Blast From The Past

Potential votes get Khalistanis support from all British parties

SANJAY SURI

Just when everyone thought the Khalistan matter was dead and gone, it is

back, cleverly disguised as the Sikh Agenda produced by a group calling

itself the Sikh Secretariat. This time, not only are British leaders

listening, they're in a hurry to deliver what the Khalistanis want.

The disguise is simple but effective. The Secretariat is telling British

leaders it wants Sikhs to be given the option to enter their ethnic origin

in official data as Sikhs, not as Indians. By Home Office estimates, there

are 3.5 to 5 lakh Sikhs in Britain, now recognised as a part of the 1.2

million Indians.

The Sikh Secretariat wants official data to record their ethnicity

separately as 'Sikh', not as 'Indian'.

One change in the census form could dent that Indian population figure

significantly. And kick up a political storm in two countries.

The agenda for a separate identity in Britain overlaps with a separatist

agenda for India. The seemingly innocuous demand

British leaders are falling for is that the government find out how many

Sikhs there are, that it can't do so unless they are listed separately. But

items six and seven in the eight-point agenda make the real aim clear: lobby

for and promote the reasons to establish an independent Sikh

state—Khalistan.

These declarations would have been insignificant without the support of

senior Conservative Party leaders. Their reason is obvious. The Sikh

Secretariat has declared that they will vote for parties that deliver what

they want. The Tories stand invited to look at votes from what the

Secretariat advertises as a population of 7 lakh Sikhs.

At an annual convention of the Secretariat at the Guru Nanak Sikh Gurudwara

in Wolverhampton on September 22, shadow Tory minister for international

development and women's issues Caroline Spelman said it was "extraordinary

(British for outrageous) that the government has not cared to find out how

many of you there are". The Labour government should monitor Sikhs

separately and "if they fail, it will be a task for a Conservative

administration to deliver on".

Labour can see the votes as well. Local Labour MP Rob Marris turned up at

the Wolverhampton do to say there would be no need to wait for the 2011

census. There will be plenty of opportunities before then to list Sikhs

separately, he said.

He then turned to the Khalistan demand: "Those in the Indian subcontinent

who peacefully and democratically push for self-determination for that part

of the Indian subcontinent, their opinion for self-determination, their

right to ask for an independent Khalistan shouldn't be suppressed." Marris

said it would not be right for parties in Britain to decide whether there

should be self-determination in what he called that part of the Indian

subcontinent. "But it would be right for people to democratically and

peacefully express their opinions."

The comment elicited loud cries of "Khalistan zindabad". The gurudwara had

become something of a Khalistan centre for the day. The walls of the langar

hall were plastered with posters of Bhindranwale carrying a sten gun. There

were posters of police atrocities, K.P.S. Gill torturing Sikhs, torture

victims. Speaker after speaker praised "Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji

Bhindranwale". The Secretariat had said 10,000 would attend the rally. Only

a few hundred were around, but that was enough for the Khalistan leaders to

make their point to the Tory and Labour leaders.

The Sikh Agenda, launched at this gurudwara on September 16 last year, has

come a long way with strong Tory support. Spelman's speech followed strong

support from shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin and shadow minister Dominic

Grieve at a lobby day called by the Sikh Secretariat at Parliament on July

3. A group of Secretariat leaders then called on PM Tony Blair to present

their demands. Later, the Liberal Democrats, the third force in UK politics,

also expressed their support to the separate-listing demand.

"Just think what message this will give to them in Punjab," one of the many

Khalistani speakers said: the message that if this goes ahead, the British

don't think Sikhs are Indians. Behind the usual hot-headed speeches by the

usual Khalistanis, this move is being directed by some brilliant leaders

such as Kashmir Singh of the British Sikh Federation and Indarjit Singh, a

retired civil servant. These gently-spoken men in lounge suits are making

more headway than all those men with the sten guns.

They are living peacefully in India and they don't care about what we

western Sikhs want because all they call us "coward" sitting in western

countries and throwing slogan against India and making their life worst.

After my visit of India last year I came to this conclusion that if Sikhs

tie up with other miniorities of India then they will become majority and

there won't be any problem. Just take the example of Delhi Sikhs, they are

able to make Punjabi the second language when on the other hand in sikhs

majority state Punjab been trying for it for long time and main reason for

their failure is that they have no unity within Sikhs and as well as others

living in Punjab.

As far as living peacefully is concerned, the Sikhs could have lived peacefully under the Moguls or the British had they been willing to give up their stance against tyranny and injustice, but even if we are willing to give up our Gurus ideals, would that prevent a situation I put to you in my previous post?

"A assassin not a Sikh

but dressed in the bana of a Sikh assassinates Mr Vajpayee tomorrow what do

you think will be the result?

Im sure you know but forsaking pointing out the obvious I will tell you,

thousands more Sikhs murdered, burned, more Sikh children orphaned or worse,

widescale rape of Sikh women and girls the burning and looting of their

homes, shops and gurudwara. All this while the apparatus of the state stands

by or in many cases joins in the 'fun'.

Like it or not this is the reality for Sikhs in that country, I for one do

not want my community to be left to that sort of unpredictable vulnerability

and anyone that does is clearly not in their right mind. You see for me the

Sikh state is not a question of desire but one of necessity we must protect

ourselves for if we cannot how can we protect anyone?"

What should we do? hope that it doesn't happen?

Ultimately there may be a hundred reasons why we as a people may not want to have a sovereign state but the one reason that overrides all of them is that factor which even within nature overrides all other considerations, its called survival.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

N.B.

Felt that a passage from a book titled 'The Sikhs in History' would be appropriate.

"The Sikhs came out of the holocaust very badly mauled.

Psychologically the most terrible blow was to their self-image, of their being lions - protectors of the weak and fighters against injustice and tyranny. The Hindus got the oppourtunity to rub salt into their wounds. Averring to the atrocities perpetrated by them they tauntingly cried " YAAD KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall remember, in parody to

"RAJ KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall rule.