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Khalistan " The real truth"


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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

wow sukbir singh ji u hit the nail on the head, awesome post, love ur views man, glad Sikhs like u and GABROO KHALISTAN DAH etc r on here other wise it would be a one way ticket, hey gabroo u keeep getting ur posted deleted :( never mind hopefully they will be getting educated by some off the posts:) ive not got time yet ot write replys to some of the stuff on here, got some probs to sort out.

ill end with Guru Ji's Hukam

"SHATAR KE ADHIN HEH RAJ, RAJ BINA NEH DHARAM CHELE, DHARAM BINA SAB DALE MARAN HE".

Without the might of weapons there can be no rule, without rule you cannot practice your faith(be that a religion or in the case of the US democracy, or any ideology), without faith nothing can go well. (of course one mans faith is another's ideology but the principal remains)

keep it going Gursikhoo

sukdev

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Love your post sukhbir veer ji but i dont think i can putt my whole energy towards makin "Khalistan". I would rather put my whole energy to do jhagat seeva. My dream in this life is to make an gurdwara in Africa(where starving residess) and to meet akaal in this life. Carry on the concept of Guroo Amar Das Maharaj ji tradition of Langar.

Thats why Sikhi is so universal. We are all equal but we are not same. Lets us love one another and respect each other views.

My views of Khalistan are anti right now but it will quickly change when I feel we have spirtual leader than a political one.

Again great post sukhbir veera :D

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Sukhdev Singh Jamaka ji,

Discussion just started so don't finish it yet. And please raise your level from those teenagers and refrain from throwing baseless allegations. I think this site gives you more freedom of speech than any other site you surf online.

etc r on here other wise it would be a one way ticket, hey gabroo u keeep getting ur posted deleted never mind hopefully they will be getting educated by some off the posts

Throwing frustration online and name calling is not educationg someone and if you and others take it as an education then I know the future of your school. His posts are not getting deleted but his "baseless allegations" are getting deleted and in that case we have rights to delete them.

We allow his posts where he has something useful to add to discussion and for our partiality or impartiality you can see the posts of Sukhbir and we are allowing his posts because he writes with logic and back up his statements and to be honest I'm very impressed to see his way of expressing his views and that's the true form of debate.

I hope you will stop all those baseless blames and get into intelligent debates or you have a right to remain silent.

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Khalistan is the land of the pure. Khalistan is a place where all people can live in peace, harmony, and most importantly freedom. No religion can survive without their own homeland. And if "Hindia" is not willing to give us our rights then we will have to fight for these rights.

And who supports it is majority of Sikhs abroad, not in India. Sikhs of India are not realizing that they are slowly being absorbed into the Hindu majority there. A lot of people down there think they are rich, successful, and happy. BUT FROM A RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW THEY ARE NOT!

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hey guys im just looking at the reality dont take it personal that im for or against anything. i just like us to question ourselves at times and self introspect, for the better.

back to few pointers, pakistan (land of the pure = pak), majority of the muslims in pak panjab, nfwp, sind wanted this pakistan to be made and worked together to achieve it, a point where we could take a lesson in mobilisation and unity . however they also did bad in driving the minorities out by force which resulted in 400 000 sikhs being slaughtered by pakistanis and countless millions of sikhs and hindus forced to become refujees and migrate to india.

kashmirs balance of population was 35% native kashmiri hindu, and 65% muslim kashmiri which was changed during the indo pak wars and the mujahadeen element driving non muslim minorities out by force humilation etc in order to secure a higher muslim percentage vote in the future legitamising a single call for a seperate muslim state. Now today the state is majority 95 odd % muslim while native kashmiri hindus migrated to jammu. demands for the seperation of kashmir surivived to now due to the by the excesses committed by the indian gov to this day, there is popular muslim kashmiri outcry. Sikhi doesnt teach sikhs to drive people out by force in order to achieve or conquer land.

in panjab the sikh population is around 60 percent and 40 % hindu. punjabi hindus obviously wudnt opt for a khalistan . if the majoirity of sikhs pressed ahead for a khalistan i believe there wud be at least some inch of development of ground but there doesnt even seem to be that atthe moment. So if they dont want it its as simple as that. how many sikhs do you know in punjab who want khalistan??? If sikhs wanted something they have shown as in history came together to achieve it. All u hear is a few tall cries in the west " lets make khalistan", go to india its another story, they dont wanna know as mentioned b4. If they did they wudnt be sitting there they would fight to the end as shown in previous times. Now if 40% of proposed democratic khalistans population mass say no we dont want it, and the majority of 60% dont wanna know but the 3 million diaspora sikhs outside india do what do u do?? what can you do? nothing. unless the masses want a khalistan its not going to appear out of thin air.

in short wehave a lot to do as a community and progress to make. to me its common sense lets live as sikhs shud and function the way guru ji taught and not blindly ignore our problems but to strengthen our community in order for greater things ahead.

Now to drugs, we all have problems on thsi world, some of us come from dysfunctional families, abuse history, racism, low confidence, yet some of us abstain from drugs some of us want to take them. Drugs are just as readily available here as they are in india. I do believe the govs can play a bigger role in stopping this horrible disease, but they let it carry on, not just in panjab but around the world including india and pakistan. Bottom line we take the choice to use or abstain from drugs.

If sikhs take to drugs drink or anything they shudnt, it is them to blame for taking that whilst knowing full well the consequences spiritually. if they are not aware whos fault is that?? im sure the moghuls tried to press sikhs to do all kinds of things, how comes the sikhs of the past didnt give in?? we obviously have some introspecting to do. Is there the indian gov holding a reefer to your throat??? threatening you to take something against ur own will with 20 million sikhs? or is the sikh willingly taking drugs?? compare that to the past when moghuls used force.

see to me its like a kid riding a bike , he or she is taught to ride it by an elder , then he or she starts peddling on their own. that is the fate of the sikhs today whereas these things may have deliberatly pushed in but today the sikhs are doing them by theirselves its them who has to stop. In my eyes if i did something that is against sikhi no matter how much pressure i am under i am to blame for taking the concious decision and doing that whatever.

i hear silly arguments blaming hindus for sikhs following caste. If i sit here and say "putt jatta de balondey bakrey" or " ramgharia de whatever" how do hindus pushing us to believe it fit into this? its us as sikhs who have chosen to believe it no one is forcing us to follow this system here and now. hindus aint exactly holding a blade to your throat forcigint u to believe caste. How can we progress if we are going to sit here all day blaming others for the problems we have?? no one is goign tohelp us, its us who have to stand up and make corrections. You can sit here all day saying they are doing this that to us , end of day whats the result? nothing. We can at this time just become sikhs and strengthen our community from the bad patch it is in now by working for its upliftment and take example from groups like fateh who do seva.

i hope i havent offended anyone.

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Excerpt from SIKHS OF THE PUNJAB written by Joyce JM Pettigrew Proffesor of Anthropology.

"The initial crime was celebrated and indeed had been planned a full year beforehand. The Darbar Sahib complex, a place of great beauty, the spiritual and political centre of the Sikh way of life and of the Sikhs as a people, their historic home through year's of invasion from the west, had its sanctity shattered. The army went into Darbar Sahib not to eliminate a political figure or a political movement but to suppress the culture of a people, to attack their heart, to strike a blow at their spirit and self confidence. The second crime, the penetration into the heart of many rural homes by non family members in serch of the young and fervent, gave rise to the early forms of resistance in the rural areas. The third crime, the systematic and planned attck on the Sikh settlements in the trans-Jumna area of Delhi in which neighbourhoods and their Sikh inhabitants were set alight and burnt alive, was a massacre in the true sense of the term"

hey guys im just looking at the reality dont take it personal that im for or

against anything. i just like us to question ourselves at times and self

introspect, for the better.

back to few pointers, pakistan (land of the pure = pak), majority of the

muslims in pak panjab, nfwp, sind wanted this pakistan to be made and worked

together to achieve it, a point where we could take a lesson in mobilisation

and unity . however they also did bad in driving the minorities out by force

which resulted in 400 000 sikhs being slaughtered by pakistanis and the rest

moving to india.

Of course working together to achieve a common goal is its own reward but the creation of Pakistan can be attributed to many unique factors, the unity or lack of it amongst muslims as well as the statesmanship of Jinnah are not the primary factors. Certainly the state of the religion of Islam was far less an issue than the concept of a homeland for the Muslims of the sub-continent. It must also be remembered that there was slaughter on all side's as is the nature of 'riot' as opposed to a (Delhi) pogrom, further in many senses the slaughter was avoidable had Gandhi, Jinnah, Nehru and Mountbatten possessed the political will necessary.

There are some telling words in a meeting between Gandhi and the Viceroy on August 27 1946 during the meeting Gandhi in the words of Wavell, "thumped the table and said If India wants a bloodbath, she shall have it" and that "If a bloodbath was necessary, it would come about in spite of non-violence"(Seervai,n 10, p.7eight) Strangely contradictory but a 'real' examination of MKGandhi reveals a man riddled by hypocrisy and contradiction whose desire outweighed compassion.

Kashmir's balance of population was 35% native kashmiri hindu, and 65% muslim

kashmiri which was changed during the indo pak wars and the mujahadeen

element driving non muslim minorities out by force humilation etc in order

to secure a higher muslim percentage in the future allowing a single call

for a muslim state. Now today the state is majority 90 odd percent muslim

and demands the seperation of kashmir driven by the excesses committed by

the indian gov to this day, there is popular muslim kashmiri outcry. Sikhi

doesnt teach sikhs to drive people out by force in order to achieve or

conquer land.

Pankaj Mishra is the author of The Romantics (Picador).

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003

"MISHRA"

In both 1948 and 1965, Pakistani adventurers failed to incite Kashmiri Muslims into an anti-India rebellion. It was in the late 1980s and early 90s that the underreported brutalities of Indian rule and the lack of international sympathy made many Kashmiri Muslims look to Pakistan for succour.

The balance of influence had decisively tilted in Pakistan's favour by the late 1980s, with people's sympathy no longer with the Indian union as it had been in 1947-48 and 1965.

Mrs Gandhi's attempts to install puppet governments in state capitals, manipulating the democratic process in the state legislatures, deeply angered the Kashmiris.

Two weeks ago, a report in the Indian Express described how three so-called "militant infiltrators" who had been killed at the Kashmir border by Indian soldiers were local civilians. Such accounts show that while it is important for General Musharraf to end all Pakistani sponsorship of violence in India, the Hindu nationalist government of India has to do a lot more to earn the trust of the majority of Muslims who live in the valley of Kashmir.

In any case, the Indian government has to show that it is interested in doing more about peace in Kashmir than just isolating or destabilising Pakistan. Apart from scaling back its military build-up on the border and within the valley, it has to open a dialogue not just with Pakistan but also with the alienated majority of Kashmiri Muslims. Otherwise, the elections planned in Kashmir in October will seem staged for the benefit of western audiences.

However, winning over Kashmiri Muslims doesn't seem a high priority for the Hindu nationalists who have long expressed a frank ideological animosity towards Muslims and Islam in general - something underlined in the Human Rights Watch report on the government-assisted massacre in March this year of over 1,000 Muslims in the western Indian state of Gujarat.

The question raised most often during the weeks of hectic western diplomacy, when a catastrophic war in south Asia seemed imminent, was whether India can trust Pakistan, or vice versa. Perhaps, not. But the bigger question is how can Kashmiri Muslims learn to trust a government which often seems to hold on to their land only through brute military force - a question that, war or no war, the Hindu nationalists will have to answer persuasively.

Once more the tyranny of the indian state coupled with the meglomania of indian leaders has led a otherwise content people to demand their right to leave india, for these people the relative 'health' of Islam is held as no benchmark for their political aspirations. Control is only being achieved by making it the most heavily militarised place on earth. As far as the Sikhs in Kashmir are concerned, no doubt some will remember Chittisingpora just another example of how expendable the Sikhs are to the indian state, their lives, homes and dreams were once sacrificed in the creation of Pakistan, if that seems like ancient history to some. We need only look at Chittisingpora as a further indication that Nehru's philosophy "For the family sacrifice the individual, for the community sacrifice the family and for the country sacrifice the community" is still applied with vigour by the indians.

CHITTISINGHPORA, NOVEMBER 1: There is an absolute calm here. Seven months

after that dark night when masked gunmen shot dead 35 men, this Sikh village

is still to come out of the shock.

`We all want the answer to a single question. Who were those masked

gunmen?Why did they kill our men?,'' says Shashinder Kaur, who lost all

fivemale members of her family including her husband. ``The inquiry is very

important. In fact, it is late. Let the truth come out. We want this mystery

to be solved once for all.''

Sitting in the compound of the newly constructed Government Primary

School,Shashinder Kaur and another widow Narinder Kaur talk of the

realsuffering that sank in later -- there were no more relatives and friends

toconsole them.

``My eight-year-old daughter has been ill since the massacre. She always

asks me about the massacre,'' says Narinder Kaur, whose husband, Gurbakhash

Singh and three other male family members were massacred. ``My children want

to know everything. In fact, they were more close to their father than me

and they miss him everyday.''

Both the widows have been given a job in the Government school so that they

can feed their families.

Nanak Singh Bedi was the only survivor and eyewitness of the Chittisinghpora

massacre. He had been seriously injured. ``I can only tell you those masked

killers were human beings. I cannot say whether they were Armymen or

militants or who,'' he said.

He too strongly favours an independent inquiry. ``It was a big conspiracy

and everything had been planned. It needs a thorough investigation to expose

it.'' He said the militants had not done any harm to them during the past 10

years.

Bedi, however, was sceptical about the Government going ahead with

theinquiry. ``Our own community came to our rescue, otherwise the Government

did nothing beyond the Rs 1 lakh ex-gratia relief. They had promised a phone

line, medical facility and improvement of the road but nothing happened,''

he said. ``If there had been a phone earlier, many of our injured would have

survived. We could have called for help immediately

in panjab the sikh population is around 60 percent and 40 % hindu. punjabi

hindus obviously wudnt opt for a khalistan . if the majoirity of sikhs

pressed ahead for a khalistan i believe there wud be at least some inch of

development of ground but there doesnt even seem to be that atthe moment. So

if they dont want it its as simple as that. how many sikhs do you know in

punjab who want khalistan??? If sikhs wanted something they have shown as in

history came together to achieve it. All u hear is a few tall cries in the

west " lets make khalistan", go to india its another story, they dont wanna

know as mentioned b4. If they did they wudnt be sitting there they would

fight to the end as shown in previous times. Now if 40% say no and the

majority of 60% dont fancy a change what do u do?? what can you do? nothing.

unless the masses want a khalistan its not going to appear out of thin air.

I have heard mention before in this thread of Panjabi autonomy within a indian union, remember the Anandpur Sahib resoulution? This could be described as a far lesser demand in the same vein, but when the masses agitated in support of that the means adopted by the indian govt. to put them down were so brutal, so inhuman, so barbaric it was only after years of this perpetual terror that the people now do not wish to talk about it, let alone openely support it . We are trying to determine what the people of Panjab hold within their hearts, if possible talk to your relatives the pain on their face's will speak volumes. There is still deep mistrust of anyone that is a stranger who would talk about such issues, in a state where human rights workers still disappear and where a prominent politician (S.S.Mann) is being tried for the words he allegedly spoke 15 years ago, the fear of a loose tongue is understandable.

The current situation of Panjabi hindus aligning themselves with the 'centre' rather than Panjab is a fairly recent development that was engineered rather than a natural proggression, it can trace its roots back to the communalising of politics by the centre in the state after 'independence'. If I can see myself as a British Sikh then what's wrong with a Khalistani Hindu? After all we were expected to be hindustani Sikhs were we not?

As I have mentioned earlier I am a regular visitor to the state and I must admit that meeting a person who did not lose a family member or know someone that did or who was not affected in some way (illegal arrest, illegal detention, police beating's etc.) is the exception rather than the 'norm.' The sheer volume of young men annihilated by the state machinery was such that in effect a whole generation was lost. Indeed in some areas it was often said that entire villages would not see marriages because of the total absence of young Sikh men.

Gross injustice on this scale is never forgotten, it may be quelled by brutality for a generation or even more but the history of similar movements has always shown that the state will eventually reap what it has sown. The truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 'Apei beej ape hei khae' is not lost on the indian state which is why every effort is now being made to tear the 'seedlings from their roots.'

in short wehave a lot to do as a community and progress to make. to me its

common sense lets live as sikhs shud and function the way guru ji taught and

not blindly ignore our problems but to strengthen our community in order for

greater things ahead

.

Yes we do have a lot that we need to do including the creation of a Sikh state, you see the two goals, revitalising Sikhi and achieving a Sikh homeland are not mutually exclusive on the contrary, if you recall the mid 80's just after 'bluestar' Sikhi was in ascendancy all over the world.

Youth that had previously not given a damn were instilled with passion and wanted to declare themselves to the world as Sikhs. It has historically always been a ' just cause' that has re-awakened the spirit of dormant Sikhs. The creation of a Sikh nation state and the resurgence of Sikhi go hand in hand.

Now to drugs, we all have problems on thsi world, some of us come from

dysfunctional families, abuse history, racism, low confidence, yet some of

us abstain from drugs some of us want to take them. Drugs are just as

readily available here as they are in india. I do believe the govs can play

a bigger role in stopping this horrible disease, but they let it carry on,

not just in panjab but around the world including india and pakistan. Bottom

line we take the choice to use or abstain from drugs.

There is a very big difference between the social ill's of this country and the sufferings of the people of the Panjab in recent times, with all due respect you can not equate a dysfunctional family or being called a 'paki' with being incarcerated by the police having your fingernails removed and chilli's pushed into your anus. I am not being intentionally emotive, as I am sure you already know this is in fact quite low on the severity scale of experience of Panjabi youth. Another point which must be corrected is the availability of drugs. The availability, type and price of drugs in Panjab at this time outstrips the situation in the UK (to use your example) by such a degree to make any comparison irrelevant. What you appear to be referring to in this country is 'illicit' drugs, to try and illustrate my point, imagine being able to walk into any chemist anywhere in London and buy over the counter any drug you want for a tenth of the price of a beer without prescription legally.

This is the situation in Panjab, it bears no relation whatsoever to the fact that you can buy 'weed', 'charlie' etc. etc. fairly easily anywhere in the UK. The recreational drugs that you are referring to are hugely different to the prescription opiates, barbiturates, amphetamines that are being touted in the Panjab to talk about 'reefers' is a long way from appreciating the situation. The type of drugs your talking about (Reefer/cannabis) have been available in the Panjab for centuries it's a prolific weed that grows all over the state and some people choose to use it, most don't but don't confuse these with the drugs that are causing misery in the Panjab.

If sikhs take to drugs drink or anything they shudnt, it is them to blame

for taking that whilst knowing full well the consequences spiritually. if

they are not aware whos fault is that?? im sure the moghuls tried to press

sikhs to do all kinds of things, how comes the sikhs of the past didnt give

in?? we obviously have some introspecting to do. Is there the indian gov

holding a reefer to your throat??? threatening you to take something against

ur own will with 20 million sikhs? or is the sikh willingly taking drugs??

compare that to the past when moghuls used force.

The point regarding the Moguls is not that they used force and the indians don't, a quarter of a million Sikhs murdered is a adequate display of force but where they surpass the Moguls is in their use of covert, Machiavellian tactic's, supplying licences to deal drugs so that the Panjab is awash with addicts is just one example. You talk of self control, addiction is beyond self control. If the same methods of overt terror were combined with these covert measures by a government in any comparative country, state, in the world you would see the same results.

see to me its like a kid riding a bike , he or she is taught to ride it by

an elder , then he or she starts peddling on their own. that is the fate of

the sikhs today whereas these things may have deliberatly pushed in but

today the sikhs are doing them by theirselves its them who has to stop. In

my eyes if i did something that is against sikhi no matter how much pressure

i am under i am to blame for taking the concious decision and doing that

whatever.

Again with the greatest respect and obviously not knowing your life experiences you are not in a position to say what you would or wouldn't do under circumstances that you have never experienced. This applies to anyone, the figures for addiction speak for themselves in some area's 60%. This cannot be attributed in its entirety to a weak state of mind, numerous studies into drug addiction clearly show that the environment is the number one constituent factor in determining drug use. The environment of the Panjab is 'being' changed to the detriment of its people we need to change the environment to benefit the people.

no one is goign tohelp us, its us who have to stand up and make

corrections. You can sit here all day saying they are doing this that to us

, end of day whats the result? nothing

It is vitally important that the world acknowledges the plight of the Sikhs and the genocide that they have been subjected to by the supposed democracy of india, by raising awareness we will be fulfilling our commitment to all those who have suffered and those who gave their lives for us. With the world in the dark 'Panjab's' will continue, look at Gujrat, only by raising awareness will india be exposed and think twice before dealing with its minorities with impunity. No offence but frankly it is the good fortune of the Jewish people that your sort of thinking wasn't prominent following the holocaust.

i hear silly arguments blaming hindus for sikhs following caste. If i sit

here and say "putt jatta de balondey bakrey" or " ramgharia de whatever" how

does hinduism fit into this? its us as sikhs who have chosen to believe it

no one is forcing us to follow this system here and now. hindus aint exactly

holding a blade to your throat forcigint u to believe caste. How can we

progress if we are going to sit here all day blaming others for the problems

we have?? . We can only become sikhs and

strengthen our community from the bad patch it is in now by working for its

upliftment and take example from groups like fateh who do seva.

i hope i havent offended anyone.

I am sorry but the relevance to the thread of this final point, as put, about caste has me slightly confused but I think it again fall's into the category of our communities shortcomings, again.

Caste means different things to different people and again is considered differently by different faiths. Indeed a Pakistani muslim Jatt may prefer to marry his daughter to the son of a Jatt beacuse that is what he considers himself to be. Although his religion is principally opposed to such distinctions. A Sikh may feel the same way even though his religion is equally opposed. Of the three religions in question it is indeed only hinduism that has a religious doctrine of caste but even this is being moved away from by some hindus who consider that such doctrine is incompatible with their 'modern' lives.

I would say that the Sikh relation to caste is dependent on how we see ourselves, is it as Jatt or Sikh or Malwai etc. I think that a common link in the form of a Sikhdom would be beneficial in all aspects of Sikhi, but do I think that we will stop referring to ourselves as particular groups? Probably not but it must be understood that this sort of distinction which is endemic within Panjabi culture is a far cry from the hindu traditions of untouchability or the writings of Manu.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

P.S. All Veer, thank you so much for your kind words regarding previous post, really is nice to have the blessing of your peer's/veer's.

N.B.

Panjab today :

Elizabeth Colson (1992:279)

"If violence is used to destroy the bases of community life and undermine trust in social relationship with young people as the objects of violence

and as instruments of atrocities ..then, they will find it difficult to re-enter society even if peace is eventually re-established.

Violence let loose in this fashion can destroy the future. It can also force

its victims to settle for any form of government that gives them freedom

from attack"

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This Article might bring the real sikh raj idea for all of you. We don't need to read what our political leaders are saying in western countries just go by the Gurus words. I think we should refrain ourselves quoting gurbani just to mold it towards our mission and its not a good idea.

--- Read below article and it will clear so many thing for all of you ---

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sikhs all over the world celebrated Holla Mohalla, which brings along a

message from our spiritual father, Guru Gobind Singh, that Sikhs must learn to use armaments and demonstrate the knowledge of war strategies, so that they may always be able to defend themselves. Holla Mohalla, a festival distinct from the Hindu festival Holi, was first celebrated under the supervision of Guru Gobind Singh in the year 1680. Armed Sikhs on foot and on horseback would play war games on this occasion at Anandpur. Guru Sahib supervised this occasion and provided the participants with training. At the end, the Guru gave saropaas to the winning teams.

According to the Sikh scholar, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, "It is a pity that

Sikhs no longer regard mastery of weapons their religious duty; they

consider it to be the job of paid soldiers. It is the commandment of Guru Gobind Singh that every Sikh should be a soldier and should master the art of weaponry." I leave you with an essay that I wrote to highlight this concern. I would be appreciative of your comments.

_____________________________________________________

Hear, the War-drums Reverberate in the Skies

by Harpreet Singh

The future of Sikhism can be delineated by the fatidic utterance of the

Tenth and the last Sikh Prophet, Guru Gobind Singh:

"The Khalsa Shall become the supreme decision-maker in human affairs. And all effective opposition shall cease. Those in the opposition camp shall eventually come round to the right way after many frustrations, and they shall realize that stability and progress can only thus be assured."

[1] Those who believe in the aforementioned revelation have acknowledged a reality, which shows its color through the curtains of faith. The realization of this truth aggrandizes when one sees a Sikh knighted as a Singh or a Kaur of the Tenth Nanak. Tens of thousands of North Americans and Europeans have embraced Sikhism by taking the Baptism of the Double-edged Sword, demonstrating decidedly that Sikhism is an universal religion. They promulgate with their five Kakars that they are distinct, and represent the blessed nation of Nanak, who embarked on a journey of Truth five centuries ago.

The Sikhs of the Diaspora face many formidable challenges. The most

important one is adhering to the injunction of Guru Gobind Singh that a

Sikh must remain distinct in appearance and conduct. The five Kakars are

the gifts of the Guru to his Sikhs. The meaning of these gifts is different to each one of us. The symbolic value of the five Kakars is directly proportional to a Sikh's level of spirituality. Why did the "Rider of the Blue Horse" make these five articles a part of our uniform is

a question without an easy answer. Everyone seems to have their own

interpretation; every erudite Sikh theologian in the past three centuries

has attempted to read the mind of Guru Gobind Singh. These efforts are

futile, for these articles have no definite meaning; being beyond

explanation, they bewitch us with their inspiring and intrinsic potency.

How they help us grow spiritually as Sikhs, and what psychological impact

they have on our conscious and unconscious minds, thus, altering our

personalities, cannot be ascertained without first adopting them, as

prescribed by the Sikh Rehat Maryada.

[2] The practice of the Rehat Maryada becomes a key, which opens up a treasure-chest full of Guru's Grace, in which lies the ineffable explanation to the five Kakars. These articles of faith have played a vital role in the Sikh past. Those of us looking for inspiration to adopt them can remember "the Singhs of both the sexes, who courted martyrdom in the cause of Religion and underwent unspeakable tortures and sufferings of being dismembered alive, scalped alive . . . but never wavered in their faith and remained steadfast in mind and spirit in the cause of Sikhism to that last hair on their body and to their last breath . . ."

[3] We can remember martyrs like Bhai Mani Singh, who chose to have their limbs cut into small pieces to save their hair. Isn't the road we travel easier than that travelled by Bhai Taru Singh, whose scalp, intact with his hair, was scrapped off by Zakaria Khan's men because he refused to part from his distinct identity? It was this distinct identity that transformed sparrows into hawks. These gifts of Guru Gobind Singh, combined with Waheguru's infinite Grace, had such a psychological effect that it caused a handful of Sikhs, who have always been less that two percent of the population of the Indian subcontinent, to become victorious against Mughal and Afghan forces, while majority of the population, Hindus, remained slaves. The Guru's declaration, "If I, Gobind

Singh, deserves my name, a single Sikh will confront one hundred and

twenty-five thousand,"

[4] could not be challenged. A small number of Sikhs, with limited resources, were able to establish a sovereign nation because they unconditionally followed all Commandments of the Guru. A question was posed by Dr. Pashura Singh during a history workshop at a Sikh youth conference, man jeete jagjit, that I attended in Detroit, Michigan in May 1996: "Would Khalsa have come into existence if Guru Tegh Bahadur had not been martyred?" There are many questions implicit within the one that was posed. One of them is whether Guru Nanak's perspective on

the use of force is akin to that of Guru Gobind Singh's? The Khalsa of

Guru Gobind Singh was inevitable; it emerged from the vision of the First

Nanak. "Guru Nanak had clearly perceived, as Thrasymachus is seen to have held in the Republic of Plato, that violence may, some time, succeed on the sole ground that it is violent enough, and thus, violence may win for its practitioners all the powers and glories of the world. Guru Nanak,

therefore, taught that although it was evil to practice violence for

gaining power for its own sake, it was also evil to let violence prevail

through passiveness of its victim, and Guru Nanak, therefore, enjoined that before violence becomes successful enough to clothe itself in trappings of morality, it should be resisted and defeated, destroyed or contained by all good people, by violence, if necessary."

[5] Guru Hargobind, the Sixth Nanak, implemented these ideas, transforming his Sikhs into harbingers of Justice, who paid allegiance only to the Laws of Akal Purakh. One cannot always fight oppression or become sovereign politically without physical strength. The eleven year old Guru announced: "If you want to earn my blessing, do physical exercise, relish the game of fencing, acquire skill in horse-riding, and go to the woods for hunting."

[6] He commanded his Sikhs: "Now is the time to stem the tide of

aggression. Take up the arms and show your mettle. Cowardice and lack of courage are the sins which can hardly be forgiven to an individual or a nation. Hold the sword of defence in your hands so that the sword of

oppression may reign no more."

[7] The brahmgyanis of Guru Arjun, now not only possessed the Name of God on their lips but also a resplendent sword in their hands.

Guru Hari Rai, the Seventh Nanak, was instructed by Guru Hargobind, to

maintain a Sikh army of a minimum of two thousand and two hundred

well-trained and well-equipped horsemen.

[8] It was Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Nanak, who issued the famous hukamnama, which confirmed the Sikh ideal of sovereignty. The Guru asked all Sikhs "not to salute a Mughal government official and never invite him to sit on the head-side of a cot."

[9] Sikhs defied the Mughal authority and in many instances they boldly

accepted martyrdom while enduring unspeakable tortures. Sikhs were

undergoing a slow process of evolution. The Tenth Nanak further shaped the Sikhs, giving them a new identity, the five Kakars, and completely

transformed them. Of these five Kakars, the unshorn hair was to be the

most important: [10] "Guru Gobind Singh laid down the ordinance, 'do not

shave or shingle,' as a testament of love of God and His beauty, and 'ever

remain allies of Goodness and Virtue, and the Khalsa shall remain free and

sovereign on earth, forever and forever.'"

[11] The Sikhs became courageous tigers, who vowed to eradicate evil from the face of this earth. The Guru infused in them a spirit that was unmatched by anyone's in the history of humankind. One could recognize a Sikh of the Guru from afar; and the same holds even today.

Reviving our lost Sikh values is a challenge that we face during our

journey into the future. There is no simple panacea; we must add

pesticides to the existing trees and plant new ones in a soil impregnated

with Gurmat. We must start by rejuvenating the lost principles and wait

patiently for a rich harvest. If we are successful, we will yield a nation

that accentuates the saint-soldier, sant sipahi, ideal of Guru Gobind

Singh's Khalsa. It is unfortunate that we do not have any sant-sipahi

role-models around us; they have become fables of the past. How many Sikhs does one encounter who know how to wield the sword-handle weapons of the modern age-which is one of the requirements of Khalsahood? Then how do we expect to fight against tyranny? We must learn from the mistakes of our kindred, who have lost a multitude of battles in Punjab because they no longer practice what their Gurus taught. Sikhism forbids suicide, and fighting without preparation is nothing less than suicide. Inculcating the sant-sipahi ideal in the present and future generations is a challenge we must undertake, so that our fates do not resemble that of the six million Jews who perished in the concentration camps of Hitler,

[12] or hundreds of thousands of Sikhs who have "disappeared" since the 1984 sacrilege of the Darbar Sahib (Golden Temple) and thirty-seven other Gurdwaras, by the Indian Army, thanks to the Machiavellian minds of the leaders of "the world's largest democracy." There is an urgent need for Sikh institutions that would teach Gurbani and chivalry along with other courses that are currently prescribed in schools. Sant-Sipahi schools should be established in the East and the West, so the

young members of the Sikh society may always lead fearless lives,

extirpating evil, cultivating freedom and becoming an invaluable resource

to their society. Instead of spending our money on covering the domes of

our Gurdwaras with gold, we should spend it on institutionalizing Sikhism.

The Roman Catholics in America run their own schools, teaching their youth the principles of Christianity.

Sikhs also have opened similar schools in India, England and Canada, but they are far from inculcating the Khalsa ideals because they fail to emphasize the importance of martial training. Martial training is not just a requirement of Khalsahood, but also a necessity in today's world.

In the Western world, many put forth asinine claims that one has nothing

to fear when governments such as the United States are protecting their

political rights. Not too long ago, on March 21, 1942, under the

instructions

[13] of President Roosevelt, 112,000 Japanese-Americans, two-third of them citizens born in the United States, were placed in concentration camps in the United States interior till 1945. Many Japanese lost valuable land holdings on the West Coast and the civil liberties of these American Citizens were denied. Their only crime was that their roots were Japanese. These acts were totally unconstitutional. Even though

Congress and the President are given broad powers in a time of War, when such laws are applied to all Americans it is one thing. However, laws that discriminate against a select group of people, especially when those people are Natural born U. S. citizens, are blatantly unconstitutional. It should be noted that no similar laws were ever passed against German-Americans or Italian-Americans. This melancholy saga transpired during the Second World War. What if history were to repeat itself, and the next time you or I were one of the victims? What if there were no hope of surviving? We could either die like cowards or die fighting with dignity.

[21] The aforementioned discrimination of a select few is not an

aberration in American history; there are numerous examples. In 1832, the Cherokee Indians were removed from their land and their rights were

suppressed, in spite of a Supreme Court ruling in their favor.

[14] Sovereignty of a particular race or an individual can be in jeopardy even in nations such as the United States; there's little need to dwell into

what's possible in "democracies" such as India. Sant-Sipahi establishments will give us an ability to mass-produce tiaar

bartiaar, geared-up, Singhs and Kaurs, who might otherwise have an

uncertain future as Sikhs. These young men and women would have intellects as sharp as a razor's edge and martial training matching that of the United States Navy Seals. After such rigorous training, these young Sikhs can advance to colleges and universities, as they traditionally would,

however, with one difference-they would be a true representation of the

Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh. These Sikhs would become doctors, lawyers, engineers and granthis, but at the same time they would be protectors of humanity and uplifters of the downtrodden. When they strike the ranks of the enemy, they would be victorious, much like the forces of Hari Singh Nalwa. They would also spread the message of Truth, one preached by the Ten Nanaks. Such a Sikh, in the words of Principal Satbir Singh, is a lighthouse that shows the way to thousands of ships.

Sikhism holds political sovereignty in high esteem. A prominent Sikh

historian, Rattan Singh Bhangu, gives the essential characteristics of the

Sikhs: "The Khalsa is never a satellite to another power. They are either

fully sovereign or in a state of war and rebellion. A subservient

coexistence they never accept. To be fully sovereign and autonomous is

their first and last demand."

[15] These words have a striking similarity to the message given by Guru Hargobind, five days before he passed away, to his fourteen year old successor, Guru Hari Rai: ". . . do not hesitate to fight relentlessly for your religious and political freedom."

[16] Guru Gobind Singh delivers a similar message: "The political power and the State rest on armaments, and without political sovereignty, the good way of life cannot securely prevail in society."

[17] The Guru wanted his Sikhs to

preserve their dignity by self-preparedness: "A person not free to bear

arms in self-defence, and one unable to proclaim his or her free sovereign

status with unshorn hair, is like a miserable sheep, inviting all and

sundry to catch it by the ears and lead it to the nearest slaughter-house."

[18] The Guru proclaims, emphatically, the importance of martial training:

"They who loosen their grip on the hilt of the sword, may have to receive

the sharp edge of the sword on their soft boneless necks."

[19] Face it, if the over six million [12] non-violent, non-resisting European Jews were acquainted with the aforesaid wisdom, the casualties might have been in smaller proportions. It is, therefore, not without reason that Guru Gobind Singh commanded his Sikhs to obtain these special characteristics that enable humans to exist in today's world, a world which allows only the fit to survive. The Khalsa is to practice religious discipline, maintaining his or her honor by power of weapons, thus, preserving peace in this world: "All the virtues of heart and the

excellences of mind: These are the natural qualities of the Khalsa. This

is to be a new and unique type of person, who bears arms and constantly

lives in the presence of God; who strives and fights against evil with his

gaze rivetted to the stars. Such is the goal to achieve which the Khalsa

has been ordained. And lo, it is a well-armed and well-integrated person."

[20] Guru Gobind Singh's Khalsa, who by the above definations must be a

sovereign entity, has become a slave. This is confirmed each month with

the various reports of Amnesty International and other human rights

organizations such as Movement Against State Repression (Chandigarh).

Unless we reclaim the title of sant-sipahi, the genocide of the Sikhs

shall continue incessantly. We must devise a system so all future Sikhs

are martially trained from an early age, so they may protect themselves or die fighting with dignity.

[21] Guru Gobind Singh's declaration to the Mughal emperor Auragzeb summarizes the Sikh stand on use of force: "When all peaceful methods fail, the sword becomes a lawful imperative for a religious person for settling conflicts."

[22] Lest we forget, this statement must always act as a reminder to use

armaments when we fail to establish peace by means other than the sword. In order to effectively use arms, we must educate ourselves, which can only be possible with the establishment of sant-sipahi institutions

throughout Punjab and abroad. We must not fight a physical war until we

are carnally prepared and are certain of our victory. This was the common sense that guided the Sikhs during the times of the first ten Gurus and also during the Sikh Raj. We must unite and fortify for that day when we will be able to procure the prerogative of equal rights for the entire human race. While becoming good soldiers, we must not ignore the

development of the spiritual dimension of our personalities. We need to

evolve back into the spiritual tigers that Guru Gobind Singh created. Each

day our brothers and sisters are ruthlessly being tortured and killed in

Punjab, and we do nothing. The Indian policemen continue to rape our

mothers and sisters, and we do nothing. Thousands of innocent Sikhs rot in the squalid Indian prisions without a trial, and we do nothing. Why do we continue to practice callousness and cowardice? O Sikhs of Guru Nanak-Guru Gobind Singh! Bhagat Kabir is urging you to awaken from your frivolous sleep and fulfill the mission of the Guru:

Hear, the war-drums reverberate in the skies.

And the deadly bullet flies straight towards its mark.

The soldier well-entrenched in the battle-field, Knows that this is the

hour of battle and victory.

This is the badge of a true soldier-

To fight to the end for justice and freedom.

[23] Notes and References:

1. raj karega khalsa, aki raheh(i) na koe(i) ||

khvar hoye sabh milege bachaha(i) saran joe hoe(i) ||

--Karninameh; and Rehitnameh Bhai Nandlal

2. The Sikh Code of Conduct, which was drafted by eminent Sikh scholars

from all over the world, under the authority of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib.

3. Ardas, the standard Congregational Prayer of Sikhs

4. sava lakh se ek laraoon, tabe Gobind Singh naam kahaoon

5. Sirdar Kapur Singh, Sikhism: An Oecumenical Religion, p. 79

6. The Sikh Review, May 1995, Vol. 43:5, p. 19

7. The Sikh Review, May 1995, Vol. 43:5, p. 20

8. Trilochan Singh, Life of Guru Hari Krishan, p. 1

9. Sikh Virsa, June 1996

10. nisahaanay sikhi panj harf kaaf | hargiz na bashid ee'n panjay mooauf

|1| karra kardo kacch kanghay binda'n | billa kess hech asst jummlay

nishaa'n |2| Translation: There are Five Nishaans of Sikhi, and never

should they ever be removed from one's body. The iron bangle, sword, long drawers, small comb must always [be worn], but without the unshorn hair, kess, these symbols (Kakars) are meaningless. --Sri Mukh Vak Patshahi 10; often attributed to Bhai Nandlal

11. jatajoot rahboh anurageh ||

sant sabhun kau sukh deeje|| achal raj dharni meh keeje ||

-- Bachitranatak, Chabisavatar, Dasam Granth (taken from Parasaraprasna, p.85)

12. Websters New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, p. 644 13.

President Roosevelt, pressured by the War Department and Congress, issued Executive order No. 9066 authorizing the Secretary of War "to prescribe military areas . . . from which any and all persons may be excluded." Only people who were excluded were Japanese, the rest remained.

14. Touhill, Blanche M., Readings in American History, p. 128

15. avar kisoo kee kan na parihe, raj kare ike lar marihe | kan na kahu

kee ih rakhat, shahinshah khud hee ko bhakhat | -- Prachin Panth Prakash, Oral recension (taken from Parasaraprasna, p. 41)

16.Trilochan Singh, Life of Guru Hari Krishan, p. 2

17. tab im bhaneeo gareebnivaaj, shastaran ke adheen hai raj, bina raj

nahi dharam chale hai | . . . Gurpratap Surya Granth aun 1, ansu 36 (taken from Parasaraprasna, p. 41)

18. bina shatar kesham naroo bhed jano, kidho kan te ko pakar le sidhano |Sukha Singh, Gurbilas, XXIII.15, 21 (taken from Parasaraprasna, p. 41-42)

19. kharag hath jin tjeh kharag thara saho || --Chritropakhyan no. 297,

Dasam Granth, p. 1247

20. soodh boodh sahit bhale gun sare | nar ur te kaljug nirvare | dhare

shatar simrah satnam | dharam dhareh pahochehn su radham | 29 | im karan te panth upayo | do ayadh ras beer badhayo || . . . 30 ||

--Gurpratapsurya Granth, ain 1, ansu 36 (taken from Para

saraprasna, p. 42)

21. "I would confront and oppose that what is evil, to destroy it or

subdue it, or die fighting against it with dignity." (jab avi ki avadhi nidhan

banai ran main ati hi tab jujh maron) --Guru Gobind Singh

22. Chu kar az hameh hilate darguzasht

Halal ast burdan b-samshir dast -- Guru Gobind Singh, Zafarnama, 22.1

23. gagan damama bajiyo pariyo nishane ghao || khet jo mandiyo soorma ab joojhan ko dao || soora so pehchanie jo lare deen ke het || purja-purja kat mare kabho na chande khet ||

--Maru, Kabir, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 1105.

(The Sikh Review, January 1998)

Writer: Harpreet Singh

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sikhism holds political sovereignty in high esteem. A prominent Sikh

historian, Rattan Singh Bhangu, gives the essential characteristics of the

Sikhs: "The Khalsa is never a satellite to another power. They are either

fully sovereign or in a state of war and rebellion. A subservient

coexistence they never accept. To be fully sovereign and autonomous is

their first and last demand."

[15] These words have a striking similarity to the message given by Guru

Hargobind, five days before he passed away, to his fourteen year old

successor, Guru Hari Rai: ". . . do not hesitate to fight relentlessly for

your religious and political freedom."

[16] Guru Gobind Singh delivers a similar message: "The political power and

the State rest on armaments, and without political sovereignty, the good way

of life cannot securely prevail in society

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

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we must educate ourselves, which can only be possible with the establishment of sant-sipahi institutions throughout Punjab and abroad. We must not fight a physical war until we are carnally prepared and are certain of our victory. This was the common sense that guided the Sikhs during the times of the first ten Gurus and also during the Sikh Raj. We must unite and fortify for that day when we will be able to procure the prerogative of equal rights for the entire human race. While becoming good soldiers, we must not ignore the development of the spiritual dimension of our personalities.

[17] The Guru wanted his Sikhs to

preserve their dignity by self-preparedness: "A person not free to bear

arms in self-defence, and one unable to proclaim his or her free sovereign

status with unshorn hair, is like a miserable sheep, inviting all and

sundry to catch it by the ears and lead it to the nearest slaughter-house."

There is a lot in that article which gives the direct picture of gurus desire. Also, Sukhbir, I will be responding to your earlier posts soon.

Quote: Nanak Naam Chardi Kala, tere Bhane Sarbat da Bhala.

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All,

Feel free to discuss it but im not going to take part because its not the same sikh world anymore. I have seen that there is not much room for freedom of speech and if you express your views honestly in hope of learning then you end up getting names of GOI agent or RSS.

take care...

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  • 5 weeks later...

Ideal singh:

Why Couldn't this demand be executed in 1947 ?

Now ask yourself who is real enemy of sikhs??

Sikhs themselves.

I rest my case. If panth was stronger like a mountain. There wouldnt be any outside enemy who could have dared to mess with khalsa spirit??

In 1947, it was more an sheep spirit than guroo gobind singh maharaj khalsa spirit. :twisted: :twisted:

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  • 3 months later...

friends,

Do U realy think KHALISTAN is a specific place which KHALSA need to uphold its identity. I dont think so. Inspite i think KHALISTAN is a stat of mind, which every man shold have to be realise, KHALISTAN is everywhere where is the KHALSA itself.

As per Great Guru Gobind Singh KHALISTAN is a land of purity.

Pause for a while and think is it sufficient to have a small piece of land is enough for KHALSA.

I dont think so, but rather i think it (KHALISTAN) should be a mission in itself. Mission to make everyman's (ON THIS PLANET) thinking, character, personality upto that level onto which we called a KHALSA IS REQUIRED.

I m sorry if somebody dont agree with my viewpoint but i have the same picture for KHALISTAN in my mind.

SSA

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  • 1 month later...

Gur Fateh!

Joyce, I hear where you are going with this and it is indeed a worthwhile consideration...

...I have some questions for both pro-and-anti-Khalistanis, what exactly will the political, economic and social reality of such a place be? Before this, where exactly will this 'land of the pure' be? I have heard such variance between Khalistan supporters themselves, from what is left of Punjab, to all of Punjab (including Pakistan) to all of India through to pre-colonial Sikh Rule right down to 'buying' an island in the pacific ocean or indeed setting up Khalistan in Canada!

People often say to me, why do I question so much before it has even occurred (that's usually the polite ones, as Truth Singh accurrately mentioned, more often than not, one gets entralled with accusation of GOI agents, RSS and more recently as I have personally found being termed a 'N**g'!).

But any venture in life, any project, especially one as big as this will certainly warrant effective and advance planning, the 'usi chak deyagai' attitude is far from being enough.

So to avoid any pro-anti-views, all I ask is where will Khalistan be, what will be its boundaries and then under what economic and political system and policies will it be governed. Is there is single united party under effective leadership that Sikhs and non-Sikhs can approach to discuss and investigate such matters to learn more about Khalistan and its prospective constitution?

I look forward to learning more.

Niranjana

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Let's be honest here, and call a spade a spade.

Khalistan = Jattistan

Every single Khalistani I have ever come across has been Jatt.I have never come across anyone who was non-Jatt and was for "Khalistan".

Jatt "Sikhs" have a pipe dream of power.A power and respect which is being eroded away in this modern day.You have so called low castes slowly getting into high positions in Panjabi society, and the Jatts are jealous.Hence the demand for a "Khalistan".

I belive this to be one of the main reasons for this pipe dream of Jatt-i-stan.

Have I offended someone?Well, I make no apology.

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I have nothing against the khalistan ideology back in dharam yudh morcha leady by sant jarnail singh ji but right now.. its a different ball game...

Everything related to khalistan its all about maya, power, fanaticism... its not that spirtual concept anymore.

Also i was just lookin on sikhe.com and came across few points by lalleshvari i found it really interesting (I hope he doesnt mind me posting this, sowwie veer you didnt say copy righted there..lol ) :LOL:

Sikhs cannot be considered an ethnic group because :

1. the term panth has a religious meaning not

ethnogeographic

2. there is no underlying unity of language among

SIkhs. Even before the conversions of European people

to Sikhi there were many Sindhi, Bihari, Maharashtrian

and Bengali Sikhs who do not share the same language

as Panjabi Sikhs

3. Guru Gobind Singh never used the word qaum to

designate the Sikh community. He used to qualify the

Brar section of the Jats.

4. The Sikh community is made of different ethnic

groups which is precisely what makes its beauty as it

is an all-embrassing religious tradition.

5. Sikhi is above nationhood and is universal.

Nationhood would imply that one has to be born a Sikh

which of course is a blatant lie. Sikhi is the path of

discipleship and this has nothing to do with ethnicity

or nation.

6. Sikhs in France should not argue their case as an

"ethnic group" as they are more likely to loose their

case by doing so. The French constitution does not

recognise ethnic groups or any other nation within its

territory. For French law French Sikhs are French and

practise Sikhism, they are part of the French nation

ONLY! The only way for French SIkhs to have their

rights recognised is to argue their case within the

limits of the laws on laicite as established in 1911

by Jules Ferry and coordinate their action with other

religious communities.

7. To say that Sikhi is a nation is condemning it to a

sure death. As French Paul Valery says: Nations and

civilisations are mortal! Nations come and go, some

appear other dissapear: is that waht you want for

Sikhi?

8. The concept of nationhood appeared quite late in

Europe and emerged at the end of the 18th century.

Nationalism has led to two major world wars as well as

many civil wars throughout the world: is that what you

want for Sikhi?

Sikhi is above nation, ethnicity, colour. It is

universal and all-embrassing!

Are you not confusing Sikh nation with Jatt nation?

And isn't the whole Khalistan issue a demand for

Jattistan?

On another reply:

1.I am aware of the history of Khalistan and I do know

that non-Jatts have participated in that project but

fact is that this is mainly a Jatt dream.

2.The fact that India and Pakistan fell to the cancer

of nationalism does not mean we Sikhs should fall in

the same trap. Azad Panjab was a much more logical

solution and Sikh leadership should have fought for

that.

3. As Nihang Hari Singh once said: I am a soldier of

Akal Purakh only and I do not belong to any nation,

government or state. And as a Sant once told me: Guru

Gobind Singh faught all his life but he never

conquered an ounce of land. His struggle was above

petty issues of nationalism.

4. Like Romain Rolland I believe that nationalism of

any kind is an idol and I do not believe in idols!

5. I do think though that Akal Takht needs Vatican

status so that Sikh perspectives can be represented on

the international scene. This would avoid SIkh affairs

to be depending on Panjab politics as they are now.

but that's another issue...

Knowledge is Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Guest Punjabi Nationalist

I am not against Punjab's separation from India, i actually favor this (Or at least maximum autonomy) if all parts of Eastern Punjab (Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi) were reunited. However, i am totally against this concept of "Khalistan" and any other theocratic rule in a multi-religious nation like Punjab.

First let me disagree with the point made by Hari about casteism. "Jatts" are low-castes themselves so i dont know how it is possible they can feel jealous that individuals from other low castes (Charmas?) are climbing the ladder in society. I am unsure of their classification in Punjab, but in Uttar Pradesh Jats are proscribed as part of the "backwards and schedules castes and tribes". Many Jats are happy with this, because they receive benefits and reservations being that they belong to a "backwards caste".

Jatts abroad may have some fascination and delusional fiction relating to their forefathers caste, but in India they are not high-castes, nor are they a race, a nation, a culture, or anything else but a social caste belonging to Hindu Sudra caste.

May i also add that these so-called "Tharkans" in the West are also delusional as there is no caste known as "Tharkan". "Tharkan" is a trade (carpenter) it is not a caste. People of this trade belong to a caste called "Charma" in turn, Charmas are Sudra Hindus. No Sikh belongs to any of these, just as Guru Nanak did not belong to Khatri caste (Regardless of whether he was born to Khatri parents).

Ok, getting back on topic:

1) Khalistan and West Punjab (Pakistan) - To these dreamers i say good luck in establishing a sovereign Sikh country in a land inhabited by a population of near 80 million Muslims.

2) Khalistan and Haryana, Himachal Pradesh - To these dreamers i say good luck in establishing a sovereign Sikh country in a land inhabited by a population of 25+ million Hindus.

3) Khalistan and western India (Rajasthan and Gujurat) - To these dreamers i say good luck in establishing a sovereign Sikh country in a land inhabited by over 100 million people (mostly Hindus) none of which are Punjabis or have any linkages with Punjab. (Rajasthan also has plenty of Rajput clans that would sooner kill a Jatt than sit at a table with one)

4) Khalistan and Punjab state - To these dreamers i say good luck in establishing a Khalistan in a land with only a 64% Sikh majority, more than half of whom are not Khalsa and probably more than 99% of whom will pack-up their things and leave for the West rather than stay back in Punjab.

A few teenagers born and brought up in Canada with all the comforts in the World (who have never set one foot in Punjab) headed by some old lunatic with little or no grip on reality are not going to establish a Khalistan in Punjab, ok?

There is not one place on earth which has a 100% amritdhari Sikh population that is viable to form a sovereign, independent country with full recognition of the UN. What is left of my ancestral roots in Punjab that are accessible to me falls in the Tarn Taran police distt of Amritsar. My pind is only 20 km from Pakistan. I was in Tarn Taran this past November. Tarn Taran is where the bulk of militancy took place, and guess what? Even there, i found more monas than saffron turban clad amritdhari Sikhs. I even found a sizeable number of migrants from Bihar (Both Hindu and Muslim).

People who dream of Punjab as a place where live kirtan is played 24 hours on the streets and where everywhere you look beards are flowing and there are saffron-turbans galore and that people walk the streets waving the Nishan Sahib and shouting "Khalistan Zindabad" are going to be in for the nastiest shock of their lives when they actually end up visiting Punjab.

I hope i have opened the eyes of some of these dreamers. Khalistan was doomed to fail they very second the first civilian was murdered by the bullet of a militant. It was doomed to fail the very second the first bomb exploded in a civilian area. It was doomed to fail the very second the first civilian was extorted for money and robbed. And it was doomed to failure the very second the first civilian was kidnapped, raped or held for ransom.... All these done to our own people by those who were supposed to be fighting for our freedom? They are no better than the Indian government and right-wing Hindu groups.

To conclude this long post i just want to draw your attention to this fact:

If you try to deprive the Hindu or Muslim of his own homeland (Punjab) dont be surprised if they decide to take up arms and deprive you of yours too.

Punjab is not Khalistan, Hindustan, or Islamistan, it is PUNJAB and it belongs to all of its people (Punjabis). And just a reminder, there are more Punjabis in the World who are Muslim and Hindu than Punjabis who are Sikh.

Jiyo,

Ps, those point by lallesharvi are spot on.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Khalistan the land of the pure cannot exist without the Khalsa the residers of the Khalistan who themselves are pure. Purity which is based in ones heart. One claims to be Khalsa yet he is ready to kill another for a piece of land, the purity of ones heart is simply a labled identity which is not earned, rather placed.

You want Khalistan, try removing greed, lust, anger, hatred from the Land of your heart and remove the Aaki of your heart and when your heart becomes Khalis then you have become Khalsa and ONLY then do you have the right to ask for Khalistan.

Then we will Talk, and until then you can throw out your propaganda, your khalistan constitution, your need, your desire for some piece of land, it will be nothing more than dream, because the real Khalistan MUST FIRST EXIST WITHIN YOU.

Creating a boundry of some land to create the pure does not guarantee you anything, Creating Purity first breaks any boundry and the boundry become unlimited as where ever this purity spreads to will be its boundry. It is that kind of purity that once it spreads sees no end.

Beware of Dreams, Face the Reality of the PURE and that reality begins with winning the land of your heart from yourself.

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What is Khalistan?

A lost cause and thank God for that!

Who is demanding it?

I suspect a bunch of Sikh version of Mullah types.

Only true Khalsa, who have great love and respect for other religions and peoples could ever establish Khalistan.Only TRUE Khalsa.

A 'Khalistani' pipedream not only excludes Punjabis of other religions but also of non Khalsa Sikhs as well. It's no wonder it never was successfull.

No rational,sane person of sound mind today would want to live in a religious theocratic state, not even a majority of the Sikhs out there. The only time the Sikh ever had a state of their own was under Raja Ranjit Singhs time and if you study history you'll realise it was a secular state and not theocratic. This is why it was successfull.

ms514 wrote

Are we going to have democracy?

A democracy cannot exist in a theocratic state. Look at the Akal Takth. Is that a democratic institution?

ms514 wrote

Are we going to have the same conflicts of Gurbani Ragmala and meat eating issues? These issues will be resolved in Khalistan.

HA HA!! Parliament would probably be having strong debates and meetings to decide wheather Sikhs should be sitting on the floor or chair in the langar halls!

gdhaliwal23 wrote

Khalistan is the land of the pure. Khalistan is a place where all people can live in peace, harmony, and most importantly freedom. No religion can survive without their own homeland. And if "Hindia" is not willing to give us our rights then we will have to fight for these rights.

Why do we need a 'Khalistan' to live in peace in harmony? As for religion not surviving, how did Judaism survive for more then 2 thousand years with Jews having no country for that time?

Hari wrote

Every single Khalistani I have ever come across has been Jatt.I have never come across anyone who was non-Jatt and was for "Khalistan".

Thats because most Sikhs today are Punjabi Jatts. Go conduct a poll and you'll find out.

Hari wrote

Jatt "Sikhs" have a pipe dream of power.A power and respect which is being eroded away in this modern day.You have so called low castes slowly getting into high positions in Panjabi society, and the Jatts are jealous.Hence the demand for a "Khalistan".

If that were the case, they should then have advocated a 'Jattland' instead of Khalistan. At least in this way they could have got the support of Hindu Jatts as well!

I don't think it's fair for the likes of you to simply belittle the Jatt contribution. Remember this and remember it well, it was the Jatt masses who supported Guru Gobind Singh Ji whose loyalty was unquestionable DESPITE no Jatt was picked as a Guru.It was again the Jatts who revived Sikhism through the Singh Sabha movement. It was the Jatt masses among the Sikhs that finally realised a Sikh state under Raja Ranjit Singhs rule. Besides, the Jatts are not the highest in the caste hierarchy. Among Sikhs it is the Khatris that are the highest. What you say does not make sense.

Punjabi Nationalist wrote

However, i am totally against this concept of "Khalistan" and any other theocratic rule in a multi-religious nation like Punjab.

Agreed. Even if Punjab had a majority Sikh population, I would still not want a theocratic Khalistan.

No Sikh belongs to any of these, just as Guru Nanak did not belong to Khatri caste (Regardless of whether he was born to Khatri parents).

Agreed.

People who dream of Punjab as a place where live kirtan is played 24 hours on the streets and where everywhere you look beards are flowing and there are saffron-turbans galore and that people walk the streets waving the Nishan Sahib and shouting "Khalistan Zindabad" are going to be in for the nastiest shock of their lives when they actually end up visiting Punjab.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Dear PN I never knew you had a great sense of humor!! I laughed till the tears streamed down my cheeks!!

Punjab is not Khalistan, Hindustan, or Islamistan, it is PUNJAB and it belongs to all of its people (Punjabis). And just a reminder, there are more Punjabis in the World who are Muslim and Hindu than Punjabis who are Sikh.

Amen to that!!

I say NO to Khalistan but a YES to a secular free and independant Punjab!!

Unfortunately, even a secular Punjab will remain a dream unless Sikhs stop bickering with each other over stupid issues ie;casteism,turban vs monas, sitting on the chair or floor in temple langar halls,self appointed 'Babas' acting like living Gurus.....

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