Saas Graas, -Breath,food And Mind ?

[Lucky]

I'm just going back with reference to a couple of older posts in another thread where I tried to explain what I understood about the jugtees of saas graas and saas saas. I have just noticed that the saas saas had a couple of points missing and I have now amended and described the 2 stages of Saas Saas itself a little more clearly than previous.

Saas Graas.as I explained in above post is when we chant Wahe-(breath in) and Guru-(breath out).

I believe that one should practice this quite thoroughly before trying to jump onto the next ones, because I have realized to some extents why there is so much importance in the mentioned vidhi.

It's foundation has to be strong to help in later techniques.

Saying that, it has also got me thinking about why it's called saas graas ?

Well, considering it's importance and strong foundation required, I came up with a possible answer that made a little more sense to me personally !

We have all probably come across the different interpretations that we may find in places, because Saas=breath and Graas=morsel of food.

The most common one that I hear is that Saas graas means we should be japping naam with EVERY breath and EVERY morsel of food we eat..ie. at all times while breathing and eating.

But I have always felt that the interpretation is a little loose.

However, I personally think it's much more than this, especially after doing the practical,

Firstly, we have to remember that we are doing simran to rise to nij ghar and we start this journey by merging BOTH Mind and Breath, in order that we can learn to CONTROL the mind by moving it's dhyian about internally.

Then, once we have learned to control it, we need to learn to separate the Mind from the Breath.

This is so that we can get into the stage of SUNN where there are no thoughts and whilst there, we should attach and merge with Guru shabad in order to continue with his grace to Waheguru.

In effect, we are doing these vidhis and using these jugtees in order train our self control with the mind.

The Saas is the life force pran energy and pavan or simply called the breath.

But this saas is essential only while we are in a physical body form in Maya. Therefore, we could say that pavan is the guru of Maya, since when we are out of the bondage of pavan, then we are also out of the maya world.

With this in mind,-My idea is that ''Graas'' is referring to the food of the Mind via pavan life force.

So, saas graas is a foundation to start at by connecting Mind and Breath together in order to try control and increase power/nourish our own dhyian of mind.

Food for thought or should I say food for mind ?

[BhagatSingh]

We have all probably come across the different interpretations that we may find in places, because Saas=breath and Graas=morsel of food.

The most common one that I hear is that Saas graas means we should be japping naam with EVERY breath and EVERY morsel of food we eat..ie. at all times while breathing and eating.

But I have always felt that the interpretation is a little loose.

To do simran saas giraas means to do it all the time. To do it the whole time you are alive, while breathing. The only time you stop breathing is when you are eating. That's why the giraas is added to saas. This is not a technique or an exercise. This is the natural state of highly spiritual being where one has practiced meditation so much that it flows into everyday living and continues saas giraas. Maybe you are over-thinking this?

With this in mind,-My idea is that ''Graas'' is referring to the food of the Mind via pavan life force.

So, saas graas is a foundation to start at by connecting Mind and Breath together in order to try control and increase power/nourish our own dhyian of mind.

Yep you are definitely over-thinking this lol.

However, I personally think it's much more than this, especially after doing the practical,

Firstly, we have to remember that we are doing simran to rise to nij ghar and we start this journey by merging BOTH Mind and Breath, in order that we can learn to CONTROL the mind by moving it's dhyian about internally.

Then, once we have learned to control it, we need to learn to separate the Mind from the Breath.

This is so that we can get into the stage of SUNN where there are no thoughts and whilst there, we should attach and merge with Guru shabad in order to continue with his grace to Waheguru.

What does it mean to merge the mind with breath? and then to separate it? Why must this be done? What happens when it isn't done?

Do elaborate on this more.

Edited April 6, 2014 by BhagatSingh

[das]

Lucky bhaji I think you previous understanding of Saas-Grass was correct. Saas-Grass is process where the prana is travelling between kanth/throat-chakra and nabhi/solar-plexus; Saas is up and Giras is down. It is neither Breath and Morsel nor breath-in and out. For more information you can refer to Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's bachan and deewans. There is The Excellent explanation of these things in the attached file. The following file has crystal clear sound without any distortion.

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/515949/Atamik-Bachan-Part-01-mp3.html

Secondly, it is NOT possible to separate Mind and Breath. Both are interdependent. Mind cannot operate without the help of Prana. The vibrations of Prana only produce thoughts in the mind. It is Prana that moves the mind. It is Prana that sets the mind in motion. Also Mind can be controlled via Breath and Breath can be controlled by Mind. e.g in deep meditation the mind is still and therefore the breaths are very deep and long.

[Sat1176]

In one of swami ramas videos I recall him saying that prana is different from mere air we breath. He said prana is the subtle life force contained in the air. He said if someone dies and you put oxygen to their mouth that won't be enough to bring them back because the prana has been withheld by the creator which gives life.

[das]

In one of swami ramas videos I recall him saying that prana is different from mere air we breath. He said prana is the subtle life force contained in the air. He said if someone dies and you put oxygen to their mouth that won't be enough to bring them back because the prana has been withheld by the creator which gives life.

yes, that is absolutely right. Prana is the energy which is the sustainer of Life.

[Lucky]

What does it mean to merge the mind with breath? and then to separate it? Why must this be done? What happens when it isn't done?

Do elaborate on this more.

Secondly, it is NOT possible to separate Mind and Breath. Both are interdependent. Mind cannot operate without the help of Prana. The vibrations of Prana only produce thoughts in the mind. It is Prana that moves the mind. It is Prana that sets the mind in motion. Also Mind can be controlled via Breath and Breath can be controlled by Mind. e.g in deep meditation the mind is still and therefore the breaths are very deep and long.

Ang945

iehu mnu mYglu khw bsIAly khw bsY iehu pvnw ]

eihu man maigal kehaa baseealae kehaa basai eihu pavanaa ||

"Where does this mind-elephant live? Where does the breath reside?

khw bsY su sbdu AauDU qw kau cUkY mn kw Bvnw ]

kehaa basai s sabadh aoudhhoo thaa ko chookai man kaa bhavanaa ||

Where should the Shabad reside, so that the wanderings of the mind may cease?""

ndir kry qw siqguru myly qw inj Gir vwsw iehu mnu pwey ]

nadhar karae thaa sathigur maelae thaa nij ghar vaasaa eihu man paaeae ||

When the Lord blesses one with His Glance of Grace, he leads him to the True Guru. Then, this mind dwells in its own home within.

The physical sargun breath resides in nostril/lung/diaphragm respiration area.

The question by Guru Nanak ji to siddhas, .. is if the shabad should reside in the spoken sargun area, and then if the mind is in the same area..’’will it stop wandering?’’

OR... ''Where can you put the mind to stop it wondering?''

>If we keep it connected to shabad in the breath and be listening, then that 's fine for then, but we have to take the shabad nirgun and the mind has to follow also.

If we think about what I mentioned above with saas graas and early steps of simran-

We try and connect the spoken shabd and put our mind’s dhyian in that area and Listen.(the practical saas graas)

Thus we make a connection here in order to make the Mind sit inside us, otherwise when our eyes are open the mind wanders outside without effort.

The next step of disconnecting is referring to the initial connection and to go put dhyian higher up within when in sunn. At this stage we want to connect the mind to the shabad and be in ‘shabad sehaj sunn’ instead.

Disconnecting of mind from breath is my meaning for leaving 3 gunas and entering chautha pad, when mind is away from sargun maya and the nirgun thoughts we have.

You see, the mind automatically ties itself to the maya breath of 3 gunas, it ties itself so much that we think it can’t survive otherwise. It’s as if the mind can only be in sehaj if it is tied to something and it automatically opts for maya unless we make the effort.

For the mind to separate from breath, means to become detached from the sargun and connect with the nirgun shabad dunn.

What I'm trying to say in short is>-...the early stages of simran connect the mind to breath by action and the shabad by listening. Then we go further and bring everything antar ghat and nirgun, such that we disconnect mind from here and make it sit in sunn with shabad to begin entering waheguru’s abode.

Of course, we are still breathing and connecting to saas( not disconnecting physically) !

(gurbani below)The mind becomes awakened(jagaii) when it is away from the duality or out of the 3 gunas.

(It won’t awake while dhyian is in the breath and sound as in in early simran)

Ang1128

krmu hovY guru ikrpw krY ]

karam hovai gur kirapaa karai ||

When the mortal has good karma, the Guru grants His Grace.

iehu mnu jwgY iesu mn kI duibDw mrY ]4]

eihu man jaagai eis man kee dhubidhhaa marai ||4||

Then this mind is awakened, and the duality of this mind is subdued. ||4||

Concerning Prana and Pavan-

Prana= Breath of life, the life force

Prana travels via the nadi etheric channels throughout the body.(same as Chinese chi).

More importantly, Prana governs all sukham/subtle processes in the body..ie.thoughts/feelings/mind voice…etc..

Even in bible…’’ God formed humans from the dust of the ground, breathing into their nostrils the breath of life so they became living beings” - Genesis 2:7’’ (I watched 'Noah' last night, and it mentions the breath)

Pavan=the air and breath, that is the carrier of prana.

Pavan is sometimes referred in gurbani as the woven string/thread holding the pearls of a necklace.

Pavan is also what sustains maya.

While on this same issue, I took notice from a thread on sikhsangat and noted the below shabads.

Guru Nanak ji and Bhai Gurdas ji make reference to 10 finger lengths

Ang 944

qRY sq AMgul vweI khIAY iqsu khu kvnu ADwro ]

thrai sath a(n)gul vaaee keheeai this kahu kavan adhhaaro ||

The breath, when exhaled, extends out ten finger lengths; what is the support of the breath?

And from next shabd on same ang

qRY sq AMgul vweI AauDU suMn scu Awhwro ]

thrai sath a(n)gul vaaee aoudhhoo su(n)n sach aahaaro ||

O reclusive hermit, the True, Absolute Lord is the support of the exhaled breath, which extends out ten finger lengths.

Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 22

qRY squ AMgul lY mnu pvxu imlwieAw]

thrai sath a(n)gul lai man pavan milaaeiaa||

In the breath going ten fingers out the mind is associated with the vital air and the practice is completed.

We know in biological/physical terms, the breath goes from deep diaphragm area in lungs up to the nostrils.

This area is up to the throat chakra.(throat chakra covers upper breathing apparatus)

The chakras are each within our bodies at distances of ten finger lengths (or 2 palm width-side by side).

Guru Nanak ji tells the siddhas that the Lord’s mansion is no further than the 10 finger lengths.

Ie. The crown chakra is accessed thru the corridor that starts at trikuti.

This dasam duar or the door to the nijh ghar(his mansion) is 10 finger lengths from trikuti.

Thus, his HUGE mansion is no more than 2 palm widths away !!

Maybe the 10 could also be significant for the 5 gyan and 5 karam indries, since we have to close of and internally move from the 9 doors to open the 10th !!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Lucky

[das]

my understanding is that: The Sunn state (Mental) is very far and extremely hard to cross. Once anyone reaches this stage he would have all the knowledge of past, present, and future in the 3 worlds (Physical, Astral, and Causal) because he/she can see the subtle form of thoughts in the Causal plane (which happens to be the seed state of thoughts).

Secondly, no-one was ever able to cross the Sunn state without Kamal/Pura Guru. It is Guru who would switch our dhayan from sargun to nirgun and then beyond and that's when He feels we're ready.

[Lucky]

my understanding is that: The Sunn state (Mental) is very far and extremely hard to cross. Once anyone reaches this stage he would have all the knowledge of past, present, and future in the 3 worlds (Physical, Astral, and Causal) because he/she can see the subtle form of thoughts in the Causal plane (which happens to be the seed state of thoughts).

Sunn state is difficult to cross, but getting there is not as extreme as you make out from what I gather and understand so far.

It is the state where your efforts can take you to his Door/dasam duar

Then it is ONLY him who opens it when ready as per his hukam and will.

SO, you work at it and get there, and then only he will answer depending on how long he wants you to wait !

When this opens is when you shall experience the real prakash and hear the sounds from his very mouth !

I'm not too sure about the knowing of all 3 worlds as you mention, because this learning and knowing continues all the way up the higher planes until the final sachkhand- final destination.

Having prakash of waheguru doesn't mean you go to sachkhand, there are many more countless levels we will have to pass through that are tailored to our individual spiritual status.

The difficult part is NOT the getting to sunn, but it is the staying there in that state and prolonging it for longer periods.

To stay there for even a few minutes is not easy at all and requires plenty of practice and many many many repeated attempts.

The abyasees and serious meditators may understand this stage similar to the earlier stages of simran.-....in the sense that just like in earlier stages one can continue anything from months to years before any spiritual experience encounter occurs for the 1st time, then in the same way one can likewise be in sunn for any period of time before Waheguru opens that door.

I believe that there is a sakhi related to this 'waiting' that goes with the shabad below-

It was along the lines of when Kabirji himself was in sunn for a period of 8 pehr/24 hours !!!

That's a whole 24 hours of maintaining himself in that state of sunn before he got the darshan !...... (a whole 24 hr day...incredible!!!!)

ਦਰਮਾਦੇ ਠਾਢੇ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥

Ḏarmāḏe ṯẖādẖe ḏarbār.

I stand humbly at Your Court.

ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਕੋ ਮੇਰੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਖੋਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕਿਵਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Ŧujẖ bin suraṯ karai ko merī ḏarsan ḏījai kẖoliĥ kivār. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Who else can take care of me, other than You? Please open Your door, and grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||1||Pause||

Then again he mentions standing at the door many times in Kabir slok

ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਸੰਕੁਰਾ ਰਾਈ ਦਸਏਂ ਭਾਇ ॥

Kabīr mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā sankurā rā▫ī ḏas▫eʼn bẖā▫e.

Kabeer, the door of liberation is very narrow, less than the width of a mustard seed

ਮਨੁ ਤਉ ਮੈਗਲੁ ਹੋਇ ਰਹਿਓ ਨਿਕਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਕੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੫੮॥

Man ṯa▫o maigal ho▫e rahi▫o nikso ki▫o kai jā▫e. ||58||

Your mind is larger than an elephant; how will it pass through? ||58||

ਕਬੀਰ ਐਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਤੁਠਾ ਕਰੇ ਪਸਾਉ ॥

Kabīr aisā saṯgur je milai ṯuṯẖā kare pasā▫o.

Kabeer, if I meet such a True Guru, who mercifully blesses me with the gift,

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਮੋਕਲਾ ਸਹਜੇ ਆਵਉ ਜਾਉ ॥੫੯॥

Mukaṯ ḏu▫ārā moklā sėhje āva▫o jā▫o. ||59||

then the door of liberation will open wide for me, and I will easily pass through. ||59||

ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਛਾਨਿ ਨ ਛਾਪਰੀ ਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਗਾਉ ॥

Kabīr nā mohi cẖẖān na cẖẖāprī nā mohi gẖar nahī gā▫o.

Kabeer, I have no hut or hovel, no house or village.

ਮਤ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਛੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਹੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਨਾਉ ॥੬੦॥

Maṯ har pūcẖẖai ka▫un hai mere jāṯ na nā▫o. ||60||

I hope that the Lord will not ask who I am. I have no social status or name. ||60||

ਕਬੀਰ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਰਨੇ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ਹੈ ਮਰਉ ਤ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰ ॥

Kabīr muhi marne kā cẖā▫o hai mara▫o ṯa har kai ḏu▫ār.

Kabeer, I long to die; let me die at the Lord's Door.

ਮਤ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਛੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਬਾਰ ॥੬੧॥

Maṯ har pūcẖẖai ka▫un hai parā hamārai bār. ||61||

I hope that the Lord does not ask, "Who is this, lying at my door?" ||61||

ਕਬੀਰ ਨਾ ਹਮ ਕੀਆ ਨ ਕਰਹਿਗੇ ਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੈ ਸਰੀਰੁ ॥

Kabīr nā ham kī▫ā na karhige nā kar sakai sarīr.

Kabeer, I have not done anything; I shall not do anything; my body cannot do anything.

ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਆ ਭਇਓ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ॥੬੨॥

Ki▫ā jān▫o kicẖẖ har kī▫ā bẖa▫i▫o Kabīr Kabīr. ||62||

I do not know what the Lord has done, but the call has gone out: "Kabeer, Kabeer". ||62||

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਹੂ ਬਰੜਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਿਕਸੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥

Kabīr supnai hū barṛā▫e kai jih mukẖ niksai rām.

Kabeer, if someone utters the Name of the Lord even in dreams,

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਪਗ ਕੀ ਪਾਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਤਨ ਕੋ ਚਾਮੁ ॥੬੩॥

Ŧā ke pag kī pānhī mere ṯan ko cẖām. ||63||

I would make my skin into shoes for his feet. ||63||

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਹਮ ਪੂਤਰੇ ਮਾਨਸੁ ਰਾਖਿਓ‍ੁ ਨਾਉ ॥

Kabīr mātī ke ham pūṯre mānas rākẖi▫o nā▫o.

Kabeer, we are puppets of clay, but we take the name of mankind.

ਚਾਰਿ ਦਿਵਸ ਕੇ ਪਾਹੁਨੇ ਬਡ ਬਡ ਰੂੰਧਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥੬੪॥

Cẖār ḏivas ke pāhune bad bad rūʼnḏẖėh ṯẖā▫o. ||64||

We are guests here for only a few days, but we take up so much space. ||64||

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਹਿਦੀ ਕਰਿ ਘਾਲਿਆ ਆਪੁ ਪੀਸਾਇ ਪੀਸਾਇ ॥

Kabīr mahiḏī kar gẖāli▫ā āp pīsā▫e pīsā▫e.

Kabeer, I have made myself into henna, and I grind myself into powder.

ਤੈ ਸਹ ਬਾਤ ਨ ਪੂਛੀਐ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਇ ॥੬੫॥

Ŧai sah bāṯ na pūcẖẖī▫ai kabahu na lā▫ī pā▫e. ||65||

But You, O my Husband Lord, have not asked about me; You have never applied me to Your Feet. ||65||

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਹ ਦਰਿ ਆਵਤ ਜਾਤਿਅਹੁ ਹਟਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥

Kabīr jih ḏar āvaṯ jāṯi▫ahu hatkai nāhī ko▫e.

Kabeer, that door, through which people never stop coming and going -

ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਜੋ ਦਰੁ ਐਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੬੬॥

So ḏar kaise cẖẖodī▫ai jo ḏar aisā ho▫e. ||66||

how can I leave such a door as that? ||66||

Secondly, no-one was ever able to cross the Sunn state without Kamal/Pura Guru. It is Guru who would switch our dhayan from sargun to nirgun and then beyond and that's when He feels we're ready.

Are you talking about a spiritual guide here ?

OR do you think that anhad naad and gurmantar is all you need to be immersed in ?

I know that sant mat insists on having a spiritual guide to take you across, but I thought the shabad is all we need ?

It's a little confusing and frustrating for me at times because I've encountered others telling me that i should have a spiritual guide or guru ?

Sunn

In my understanding, Sunn is a very deep meditative state whereby you bring control of your physical body to the deeper self of soul and subconscious.

The physical manner that this can get confirmed is that your breathing will change at the moment the shift to this state occurs. This breathing shifts immediately into the very deeper breath just like it shifts when we go into sleep mode.

However, you are NOT asleep or have let your mind fall into the dream mode of maya.

Entering Sunn is the moment when you feel that your mind is disconnected from your body and breath, as it is not in maya and you are not asleep but in full awareness and control.

At this stage you can feel yourself extremely light, expanding and rising from the grounded weight of yourself.

It is a very near feeling to complete nirgun with the feel of yourself ascending, however it is NOT an out of body experience, and neither is this the idea.

(Out of body and all that astral stuff cannot take you to waheguru's door, so you don't even want to try that route and I wouldn't think it is gurmat)

It is probably best explained as going through different dimensions of consciousness until you are in this elevated and altered state of Sunn.

I have heard of abhyasees being at this state for a number of years before his Hukam wills !

But we shouldn't let anything put us off or give up should we ?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Lucky

[SAadmin]

At certain stage if one is receptive towards it you don't need a physical spiritual guru as one start getting guidance or drawn towards from inner guru- intuitive divine guidance consciousness/inner voice within(surti/sakhi within) which guides you through in experience (during meditation, sehaj patt, gurbani vichar not conceptually or intellectually.)

We need to realize there is no duality as such- guru real profound ultimate roop is jot saroop/real self of everyone which is in all of us thats the source call it vahiguroo/ikongkar or gyan roop of ikongkar/vahiguroo-atma/paratma call it what you like it's same thing, in order to help seeker guru himself take many physical forms to help seeker to go introvert and guide, and depending on spiritual development of seeker, guru himself take form of shabad, inner guidance/voice and draw seeker in and finally ultimately same guru reveal itself in all prevading jot saroop which is no different than jagadi jot saroop of seeker and guru. It's our ignorance we start seeing and wrapping our head around one aspect of guru while ignoring other aspects all together.

Another thing i would highly recommend for serious spiritual aspirants, during their experience in meditation/naam simran/naam abhyaas/whatever technique they are using is to incorporate deep inquiry within their experience- whenever one is going through experience be it listening to anhad shabad, sas gras, swas swas etc- infuse the simple yet very profound deep question - 'who is experiencing it? from time to time, its not meant to be repeated as mantra...let the answer come from your experience/shabad/inner intuitive divine guidance surti consciousness within, don't let or try to answer it intellectually or conceptually from mind.

In reality, we can totally rule out things which we are not and let shabad absolute reality assert express reveal itself...so its not definitely not individualistic mind/egoic mind which is experiencing it, even though individualistic mind/egoic mind think it is or have you totally convinced it is. Answer lies for you to be discovered, once its discovered or realize, it change your perception surrounding many things, you will keep doing whatever sadhana you doing but perception surrounding things like goal, aim and main thing whole seeking shall automatically fall off or change, one will notice out of many things one of things one will notice is not much "seeking" rather simply acknowledgement or recognition

[das]

As I've mentioned in the previous posts also that till now I did NOT have any spiritual experience(s). But I guess sometimes, it is easier to solve the problem in simpler terms instead of complicating it with various information. What I've learnt from many sources (physical and non-physical) is that:

For True liberation (at-least out of Sunn state (mental) and beyond) one needs to have someone who can guide us. We can choose to call that one: Sant/Brahmgyani/Mahapurash/Spiritual-Guide/Guru or any other name. Even one can have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as his/her Guru but we must remember that even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there are numerous tuks describing the need of True Sant. Brahmgyanis are needed even to understand the True meaning of the Bani.

Without the True Brahmgyani, it is NOT possible to cross the Sunn state. All of our hard work (Meditation without Guru) can have all the rishi-siddhis, knowledge, Sawarg, and possibly human birth again but not the liberation. But that does NOT mean that Meditation is of no use. We need to do Meditation and once we're ready for Guru, Guru will come to us (NO need to search for him). Our meditation (without Guru) could help us to remain in the Astral and Causal worlds and then from there a True Guru could lead us to Sachkhand slowly.

Thirdly, there is another rule: Let's say we had Guru in some previous birth, then that pura Guru IS helping us in this birth also. Most of the time, we think that we're doing meditation (without having Guru) but in reality we are under the Guru's guidance but just don't know that. For most of us, Salvation takes number of births and during all those births it is our Guru who is helping us from higher planes. In each birth he would meet us in one or the other form. e.g The person who in previous birth had taken up Khande-da-Amrit and did his/her meditation then after the death, he would again given birth in Sikh family and would take Khande-de-Pahul in childhood.

Here are the 3 examples which does prove it:

1. Guru Nanak Dev Ji used to take bath in River Vae (in Sultanpur) everyday. One day He went in river and did not come back for 3 days. During this time He went to Sachkhand to meet Himself (His Self in base form). The Nirankar asked His form (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) why He had not started preaching the jiva till this age; to which Guru Nanak Dev Ji told Him that there is a rule in lower worlds (Mat Lok) that one needs to have Guru. To this Nirankar (another form of Guru Nanak) agreed to be Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Guru. First the Nirankar gave BabaJi the updesh of "Satnaam" and then the Mool-Mantar (till Gurparshad). Even though Nirankar gave the Mool-Mantar till "Gurparshad", all Mahapurakhs suggest to do the Moolmantar jaap till "Nanak Hose Bhe Sach". It is clear from this example that even the God Himself has to take the Guru as He is playing the Natak perfectly. There is also one Audio deewan of Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib where all of the above is mentioned (starting from minute 30.00)
   
   http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Ishar_Singh_%28Rara_Sahib_wale%29/051-100/070--Sant.Isher.Singh.%28Rara.Sahib.wale%29--Sri.Guru.Nanak.Dev.Ji.da.Sachkhand.Jana.mp3
   
2. Also from the jeevan of ALL yesterday year Karak Mahapurashs (Sant Baba Attar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji, Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji, Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji, and many more), we can easily see that they had taken the Khande-de-paul and also had the guidance of another Sants. Now, ALL these Sants had the inner voice/guidance but they opted for external Guru because it is the Rule and They play the Natak with perfect characters. Also Bhagat Kabir had akash-bani (voice from sky) to have Ramanand as his Guru.
   
3. Raja Janak knew all the spiritual stuff and was antarmukhi and had spirutual experiences. But when the Astabakar (a child Saint) did updesh to Raja Janak, he instantly had a samadi because his deeva was already full of ghee with batthi (cotton-thread) and the only missing thing was the jot with which Raja Janak's deva could be lighten up. And this jot was his Guru in the form of Astabakar Sant.

Becoming Antarmukhi (concentration inside) is the starting point and it is not the gurantee that whatever sounds/lights we're seeing comes from Sachkhand in UN-modified form(s). Maya/Kaal is huge complex power due to which 84 crore jeevs are wandering in vain unless guided by a True Soul who comes from the Sachkhand. Only Sant/Guru could help the seeker to be on the right path and NOT misled by the traps of Maya/Kal. e.g a sound coming from the flute could be modified by using filters and the modified sound may falsily sound like an approaching train or us approching the station (our destination).

At last, I've posted this reponse NOT to state Right vs Wrong OR to prove who is right or wrong. Sometimes it is best to take things in simplier terms.

Edited April 14, 2014 by das

[Sat1176]

From the little knowledge I have picked up once in the "Sunn" you focus your dhyaan on the Shabad.

First getting to into the state of Sunn is no easy task.

Ang 333

I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.

ultat pavan chakar khat bhayday surat sunn anraagee.

Ang 293

The nine treasures are in the Ambrosial Name of God.
na-o niDh amrit parabh kaa naam.

Within the human body is its place of rest.
dayhee meh is kaa bisraam.

In the Sunn Samaadhi the unstruck sound current of the Naad are there.
sunn samaaDh anhat tah naad.
The wonder and marvel of it cannot be described.
kahan na jaa-ee achraj bismaad.
He alone sees it, unto whom God Himself reveals it.
tin daykhi-aa jis aap dikhaa-ay.
O Nanak, that humble being understands.

naanak tis jan sojhee paa-ay. ||1||

Ang 332

One who remains dead while yet alive, will live even after death; thus he merges into
the Primal Void of the Sunn. (First learn to die and then become alive again, this is the way to merge in the Sunn)

jeevat marai marai fun jeevai aisay sunn samaa-i-aa.

Ang 333

The inverted mind has been absorbed in the Sunn; duality and evil-mindedness have run away.
unman manoo-aa sunn samaanaa dubiDhaa durmat bhaagee.

Says Kabeer, I have seen the One Lord, the Fearless One; I am attuned to the Name of the Lord.

kaho kabeer anbha-o ik daykhi-aa raam naam liv laagee.

Ang 411

He descends the treacherous precipice, to bathe in the cleansing pool;

utar avghat sarvar nHaavai.

without speaking or saying anything, he sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord. (The mind sings the anhad bani)

bakai na bolai har gun gaavai.

Like water vapor in the sky, he remains absorbed in the Lord. (He remains absorbed in the shabad)

jal aakaasee sunn samaavai

He churns the true pleasures to obtain the supreme nectar. (By listening to the shabad the amrit trickles down)

ras sat jhol mahaa ras paavai.

Listen to such spiritual wisdom, O my mind.

aisaa gi-aan sunhu abh moray

The Lord is totally pervading and permeating all places. Pause

bharipur Dhaar rahi-aa sabh tha-uray. rahaa-o.

Through the Word of the Guru`s Shabad, he burns away his anger.

satgur sabad karoDh jalaavai.

He dwells in the Tenth Gate, immersed in the Samaadhi of deep meditation.

gagan nivaas samaaDh lagaavai.

Touching the philosopher`s stone, he obtains the supreme status.

paaras paras param pad paavai.

For the benefit of the mind, churn the true essence of reality;

sach man kaaran tat bilovai

bathing in the over-flowing tank of nectar, filth is washed away.

subhar sarvar mail na Dhovai

We become like the One with whom we are imbued.

jai si-o raataa taiso hovai.

The Guru is cool and soothing like ice; He puts out the fire of the mind.

gur hiv seetal agan bujhaavai.

Smear your body with the ashes of dedicated service,

sayvaa surat bibhoot charhaavai.

and live in the home of peace - make this your religious order.

darsan aap sahj ghar aavai.

Let the Immaculate Bani of the Word be your playing of the flute.

nirmal banee naad vajaavai.

Spiritual wisdom within is the supreme, sublime nectar.

antar gi-aan mahaa ras saaraa.

Ang 503

Some remain absorbed in Sunn Samaadhi, their minds fixed lovingly on the One Lord; they reflect only on the Word of the Shabad.

sunn samaaDh raheh liv laagay aykaa aykee sabad beechaar. (1)

In that state, there is no water, land, earth or sky; only the Creator Lord Himself exists.

jal thal Dharan gagan tah naahee aapay aap kee-aa kartaar.

There is no intoxication of Maya there, and no shadow, nor the infinite light of the sun or the moon.

Naa tad maa-i-aa magan na chhaa-i-aa naa sooraj chand na jot apaar.

The eyes within the mind which see everything - with one glance, they see the three worlds.

sarab darisat lochan abh antar aykaa nadar so taribhavan saar.

----

Meditate on the self-existent, immaculate Lord, whose Light is pervading everywhere; renounce all your worldly entanglements.

sarab jot niranjan sambhoo chhodahu bahut janjaalaa.

Listen, O seekers of Truth - Nanak begs you to renounce the traps of Maya.

sun sikhvantay naanak binvai chhodahu maa-i-aa jaalaa.

Reflect within your mind, that by enshrining love for the One Lord, you shall not be subject to birth and death again.

man beechaar ayk liv laagee punrap janam na kaalaa.

He renounces sexual desire, anger, egotism, greed, attachment and Maya.

kaam kroDh ahaNkaar tajee-alay lobh moh tis maa-i-aa.

Within his mind, he meditates on the reality of the Imperishable Lord; by Guru`s Grace he finds Him.

man tat avigat Dhi-aa-i-aa gur parsaadee paa-i-aa.

He enjoys the taste of the honey of God`s lotus; he remains awake, and does not fall asleep.

barahm kamal maDh taas rasaadaN jaagat naahee sootaa.

This lotus is very deep; its leaves are the nether regions, and it is connected to the whole universe.

mahaa gambheer patar paataalaa naanak sarab ju-aa-i-aa.

Under Guru`s Instruction, I shall not have to enter the womb again; I have renounced the poison of corruption, and I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.

updays guroo mam puneh na garbhaN bikh taj amrit pee-aa-i-aa.

Some remain absorbed in Sunn Samaadhi, their minds fixed lovingly on the One Lord; they reflect only on the Word of the Shabad.

sunn samaaDh raheh liv laagay aykaa aykee sabad beechaar.

----

One who subdues the five passions does not waver.

vasgat panch karay nah dolai.

One who practices Yoga in such a way,

aisee jugat jog ka-o paalay.

saves himself, and saves all his generations.

aap tarai saglay kul taaray.

He alone is a hermit, who attains such understanding.

so a-uDhoot aisee mat paavai.

Day and night, he remains absorbed in Sunn Samaadhi. ||1||Pause||

ahinis sunn samaaDh samaavai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

He begs for loving devotion to the Lord, and lives in the Fear of God.

bhikhi-aa bhaa-ay bhagat bhai chalai.

He is satisfied, with the priceless gift of contentment.

hovai so taripat santokh amulai

Becoming the embodiment of meditation, he attains the true Yogic posture.

Dhi-aan roop ho-ay aasan paavai

He focuses his consciousness in the deep trance of the True Name.

sach naam taarhee chit laavai.

Nanak chants the Ambrosial Bani.

naanak bolai amrit banee.

Ang 974

One who remains awake, never sleeps.

jaagat rahai so kabahu na sovai.

The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.

teen tilok samaaDh palovai.

He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart.

beej mantar lai hirdai rahai.

Turning his mind away from the world, he inverts he mind inwards and heads towards the Sunn

manoo-aa ulat sunn meh gahai.

He remains awake, and he does not lie.

jaagat rahai na alee-aa bhaakhai.

He keeps the five sensory organs under his control.

paacha-o indree bas kar raakhai.

He cherishes in his consciousness the Guru`s Teachings.

gur kee saakhee raakhai cheet.

He dedicates his mind and body to the Lord`s Love.

man tan arpai krisan pareet.

He considers his hands to be the leaves and branches of the tree.

kar palav saakhaa beechaaray.

He plugs up the source of the river of evil tendencies.

asur nadee kaa banDhai mool.

Turning away from the west, he makes the sun rise in the east.

pachhim fayr charhaavai soor.

He bears the unbearable, and the drops trickle down within;

ajar jarai so nijhar jharai.

then, he speaks with the Lord of the world.

jagannaath si-o gosat karai

Ang 1291

The True Guru is the All-knowing Primal Being; He shows us our true home within the home of the self.

ghar meh ghar daykhaa-ay day-ay so satgur purakh sujaan.

The Panch Shabad, the Five Primal Sounds, resonate and resound within; the insignia of the Shabad is revealed there, vibrating gloriously.

panch sabad Dhunikaar Dhun tah baajai sabad neesaan.

Worlds and realms, nether regions, solar systems and galaxies are wondrously revealed.

deep lo-a paataal tah khand mandal hairaan.

The strings and the harps vibrate and resound; the true throne of the Lord is there.

taar ghor baajintar tah saach takhat sultaan.

Listen to the music Sukhman Channel and concentrate on the sunn.

sukhman kai ghar raag sun sunn mandal liv laa-ay.

Contemplate the Unspoken Speech, and the desires of the mind are dissolved.

akath kathaa beechaaree-ai mansaa maneh samaa-ay.

The heart-lotus is turned upside-down, and is filled with Ambrosial Nectar. This mind does not go out; it does not get distracted.

ulat kamal amrit bhari-aa ih man katahu na jaa-ay.

It does not forget the Chant which is chanted without chanting; it is immersed in the Primal Lord God of the ages.

It remembers the lord without chanting and the mind is immersed in the primal truth of the ages.

ajpaa jaap na veesrai aad jugaad samaa-ay.

All the sister-companions are blessed with the five shabads. The Gurmukhs dwell in the home of the self deep within.

sabh sakhee-aa panchay milay gurmukh nij ghar vaas.

Nanak is the slave of that one who seeks the Shabad and finds this home within.

sabad khoj ih ghar lahai naanak taa kaa daas.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Sat1176

[das]

To add what Sat has mentioned, I would like to underline few tuks from his response in order to have more clarity.

Under Guru`s Instruction, I shall not have to enter the womb again; I have renounced the poison of corruption, and I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.

updays guroo mam puneh na garbhaN bikh taj amrit pee-aa-i-aa.

The True Guru is the All-knowing Primal Being; He shows us our true home within the home of the self.

ghar meh ghar daykhaa-ay day-ay so satgur purakh sujaan.

Edited April 14, 2014 by das

[Sat1176]

Added a few more relevant pangtis to previous post.

When one enters the state of Sunn it is said that the mind looses connection with the body, like when you fall asleep.

I was watching a video the other day and a lady asked a mahapursh that she could hear the sound of the flute even when she was not meditating. The mahapursh told her it was very good however to make further progress she should learn to take her mind into the Sunn state and listen to those sounds in the Sunn. Only then would she progress further.

Was a really relevant question for me because I was confused and lost about what I should try and do next.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Sat1176

[das]

I was listening to another deewan of Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji of Rara Sahib where he has explained in detail the dhayan of Sakar. Even the Shabad (including Waheguru Shabad) cannot reach "Nirankar". HE/Nirankar is beyond anything. I thought someone might be interested in this. It starts from around 50 minutes.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Ishar_Singh_%28Rara_Sahib_wale%29/101-150/147--Sant.Isher.Singh.%28Rara.Sahib.Wale%29--Bhagat.Naamdev.Raja.Janak.Ji.mp3

Here please keep in mind that I'm NOT saying that today's so-called Fake Gurus are required. What I understood is even Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Sakar as we also say in Ardas (Pargat Gurur de deh.......) and the requirement to go beyond the Sakar is using the Sakar initially.

Edited April 16, 2014 by das