Dispelling Mistranslation On Meat

[savinderpalsingh]

wahegurujikakhalsa wahegurujikifateh

found a really good book mispeling the doubts on eating meat, and how mistranslation led to being mainstream vegetarianism

http://www.scribd.com/doc/74887629/Fools-Who-Wrangle-Over-Flesh-Orthodox-Sikh-View-on-Meat

[chatanga1]

Kabir : You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

I have always wondered about this, because Muslims do not believe that God lives in all. They believe he is separate from creation.

[savinderpalsingh]

Kabir : You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

I have always wondered about this, because Muslims do not believe that God lives in all. They believe he is separate from creation.

it is in context to , just as you described

same guru nanak dev ji said

when he saw a muslim arguing with butcher,

he was getting a murgi slaughtered and its blood stains got on the muslims white cloths

and when asked he said "this butcher ruined my sucham , i have to go take bath again and put freshly washed clothes again to go visit mosque "

then guru Nanak dev ji uttered something similar in reply

Edited August 20, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[BhagatSingh]

They are relying on faulty english translations. And ironically they take things out of context to make their argument.

I'll give you two examples.

I've posted on this before so will quote myself here.

In response to point 1. This is faulty english translation.

Bhagat Kabir

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

ਭਾਂਗ meat of the ਮਾਛੁਲੀ fish

ਸੁਰਾ wine of the ਮਾਛੁਲੀ fish (Fish are used in wine sometimes)

Bhagat Kabir was a vegetarian, and he promoted that lifestyle in Guru Granth Sahib.

Bhai Gurdas ji says

ਜੇ ਕਾਸਾਈ ਉਧਰਿਆ ਜੀਆ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾ।

If a Butcher (Bhagat Sadhna) is liberated, it does not mean that we should (become a butcher and) slaughter and eat meat.

-Bhagat

In fact, it wasn't only Bhagat Kabir. The Gurus and Bhagats and Sikhs whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib were all vegetarians.

Point 3 is in fact talking about killing. Bismil and Halaal are referring to killing rather than sacrifice. Instead of adding context the article removes context.

The context to this is another shabad by Kabir sahib that talks about killing animals.

He says it bluntly, it is wrong to kill animals.

Bhagat Kabir

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥

If killing living beings is righteous action then what is unrighteous?

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥

You call yourself a saint then who would you call a butcher?

-Bhagat

Kabir : You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

I have always wondered about this, because Muslims do not believe that God lives in all. They believe he is separate from creation.

Again this is a faulty English translation. He is not referring to the Mullah's beliefs. He is in fact saying that the Mullah is wrong and he should contemplate Ved and Kateb.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

Do not say Ved and Kateb, false are those who do not contemplate them.

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

When they (Ved and Kateb) say that there is Khudai/divinity in all beings, then why do you kill chickens?

Bhagat Kabir ji says it again and again in different ways, and using all kinds of rhetoric, but the underlying argument is the same - It is wrong to kill animals.

[chatanga1]

Again this is a faulty English translation. He is not referring to the Mullah's beliefs. He is in fact saying that the Mullah is wrong and he should contemplate Ved and Kateb.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

Do not say Ved and Kateb, false are those who do not contemplate them.

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

When they (Ved and Kateb) say that there is Khudai/divinity in all beings, then why do you kill chickens?

But the kateb do not acknowledge God as being in all beings, they vehemently argue the opposite.

[savinderpalsingh]

They are relying on faulty english translations. And ironically they take things out of context to make their argument.

I'll give you two examples.

I've posted on this before so will quote myself here.

In response to point 1. This is faulty english translation.

In fact, it wasn't only Bhagat Kabir. The Gurus and Bhagats and Sikhs whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib were all vegetarians.

Point 3 is in fact talking about killing. Bismil and Halaal are referring to killing rather than sacrifice. Instead of adding context the article removes context.

The context to this is another shabad by Kabir sahib that talks about killing animals.

He says it bluntly, it is wrong to kill animals.

Again this is a faulty English translation. He is not referring to the Mullah's beliefs. He is in fact saying that the Mullah is wrong and he should contemplate Ved and Kateb.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

Do not say Ved and Kateb, false are those who do not contemplate them.

ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

When they (Ved and Kateb) say that there is Khudai/divinity in all beings, then why do you kill chickens?

Bhagat Kabir ji says it again and again in different ways, and using all kinds of rhetoric, but the underlying argument is the same - It is wrong to kill animals.

how about ? Gurudwara Sidh Vatii sahib?

where guru nanak dev ji asked mardana to prepare the deer, hunted by the king

and it turned into karah parshad !!

also at guru angad dev ji's time there was 2 type of langar

meat and the pandit langar/vaishnu

this is a well known sakhi

[savinderpalsingh]

In‘Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46, the author states:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm toanimals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance withNanak’s wishes”.

Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took tohunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice

.

Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46

Edited August 20, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[BhagatSingh]

But the kateb do not acknowledge God as being in all beings, they vehemently argue the opposite.

I wouldn't know about that, I'd have to read them. But according to Kabir they do. And he is talking about Both Ved and Kateb. So if one of them does then...

[BhagatSingh]

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm toanimals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance withNanak’s wishes”.

Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took tohunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice

.

Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46

Well that should answer your question.

also at guru angad dev ji's time there was 2 type of langar

meat and the pandit langar/vaishnu

Guru Angad Dev ji converted to vaishnuism under Guru Nanak Dev ji but remember before Lehna was give given Gurgaddi and the name of Angad, he already had a following of his own. When Guru Nanak gave gurgaddi to him, the two followings merged and this new group of sikhs included meat eaters from Lehna's own following. And so yes he did hold a separate langar for the meat eaters.

[BhagatSingh]

how about ? Gurudwara Sidh Vatii sahib?

where guru nanak dev ji asked mardana to prepare the deer, hunted by the king

and it turned into karah parshad !!

Yeah Guru Sahib did that in Kurukshetra as well. He was trying to get a point across. Guru ji neither killed, cooked nor ate the meat himself.

[savinderpalsingh]

hmm thanks but it also states

"Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took tohunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice

.
Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46" ???

[BhagatSingh]

hmm thanks but it also states

"Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took tohunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice

.

Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46" ???

I know. Guru Hargobind Sahib also killed many men in the battles he fought. And killing a man is still wrong.

The situation and the environment was different. Guru Hargobind Sahib's father was murdered, and he grew up in a comminuty that now felt the threat from the mughal government. He needed to become a strong warrior and avenge his father's death. He needed to assert his ground and his followers.

As soon as this need went away, Guru Tegh Bahadur put down arms and returned to the teachings of Guru Granth sahib and bhagti. He used to fight alongside his father Guru Hargobind and was called brave sword, tegh bahadur for that reason. His real name was Tyag Mal. So once that situation his father faced, disappeared, he returned to the core teachings.

And then this son Guru Gobind Singh faced a similar situation as Guru Hargobind, after the murder of Guru Tegh Bahadur.

Guru Sahib appoints Banda Bahadur who was a vaishnu in order to inspire the vaishnus to arms and have a leader. Banda didn't eat meat, neither did his followers.

After a long time, once the British captured Sikhs and Punjab. There were efforts by Ram Singh to tackle oppression of the British government. He wanted to do it while sticking to the core teachings, without deviating. And the movement he started was the original non-violence movement ( way before Gandhi). And his followers created the Namdhari sect where Ram Singh became their guru, Guru Ram Singh.

I'm rambling now but we were talking about the teachings enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib. A teaching is the best possible way. We should try to follow it to the best of our ability but we can deviate if the environment we live in, requires that.

E.g. if you live in a neighbourhood that is rough, where people are living under constant threat, then it would be fine to eat meat and put on some muscle and of course, learn how to fight.

Edited August 20, 2014 by BhagatSingh

[savinderpalsingh]

thats the thing we have hukam to be tyaar bar tyar , so it doesnt matter if you have that environment or not .

khalsa is kashatriya , so meat it essential part , i am not saying we should all eat it. it just depends on an individual to eat or not

[jaikaara]

I strongly advocate just for he fact that Guru Gobindsingh ji Maharaj had issued the hukum to do jhatka when there was jhatka being stopped by the Mughal Raaj...it was a challenge against tyranny.

[savinderpalsingh]

one more interesting read


http://www.scribd.com/doc/100583067/Jhatka-Parkash

[jaikaara]

Interestingly this trust is a supporter of Kala afghana

[savinderpalsingh]

jhatka prakash was written by pandit narain singh ji, a very well known scholar , dispelling myths and giving facts and has done awesome tikka of Sri dasam granth sahib ji

[jaikaara]

haan ji ..i am talking about this trust who published this ..the address you see on the first page

[dalsingh101]

E.g. if you live in a neighbourhood that is rough, where people are living under constant threat, then it would be fine to eat meat and put on some muscle and of course, learn how to fight.

What about if you don't?

Are you going to wait until problems land on your doorstep before you start to train? Isn't that lack of foresight in a obviously volatile world?

What about training so you can also help other people in your community instead of leaving them to the wolves when they get outnumbered?

[chatanga1]

how about ? Gurudwara Sidh Vatii sahib?

What about Gurdwara Kirpan Bhet ?

I wouldn't know about that, I'd have to read them. But according to Kabir they do. And he is talking about Both Ved and Kateb. So if one of them does then...

...doesnt mean the other does.

Do a search on this forum, where Nirgun-Sargun has been discussed between Muslim and Sikhs.

[savinderpalsingh]

What about Gurdwara Kirpan Bhet ?

yes thanks , they also had meat over there

[curious_man]

WJKK WJKF,

This jhatka prakash granth have been refuted topic by topic in the maas nishedh granth. Anywys, most of the points from this JP granth is historical.. u should know that historical granths dont have full authority.

These historical granths states a lot of contradictory topics.. like gursikhs eating meat (as quoted in the JP granth),

gursikhs not eating meat (pritham tajaho aamikh ko khaana, karho jaas hit jeevan haana||7|| sabh raakash ko naam japayo, aamikh khaan tinahe tajvaayo||18||, guru nanak prakash, adhyay 55)

suraj prakash granth, raas 1, ansoo 26 - updesh of guru Angad Dev ji to Sheehe against meat eating and saved 100 goats (itne jeevan hinsaa karai, paap bisaal apan sir dharai ||7|| and lot more)

guru sahib condemning rituals, guru sahib doing shraadh,

guruji saying no to intoxicants, guru sahib getting intoxicated,

guru sahib saying no to jewellery, gur sahib wearing earrings,

different granths describing amrit sanchar in differently (kirpan, or khanda?)

so many doubts come to mind...

the best way as per baba hari singh ji randhaway wale explained is to do vichaar on gurbani.. and only after conclusion, we should try to fit the historical verses in the conclusion, if they fail, they shld be out.

read the meanings of any shabad regarding diet.. if doubt share it on this forum and we all will do veechar.

*****************************************************************************************

are meat eating sikhs not sikhs?

I have no hate, as long as they following akaal takhat maryada, we all are khalsa.

but all i say is that eating meat for svaad is not gurmat. Eating meat has been for survival (that too self jhatka and not going to market and buying chaanp or leg piece from shops or kfc or frozen, total unbibek), during jang times if needs arises. else satoguni bhojan is best for spiritual upliftment.

WJKK WJKF

Edited August 21, 2014 by curious_man

[savinderpalsingh]

WJKK WJKF,

This jhatka prakash granth have been refuted topic by topic in the maas nishedh granth. Anywys, most of the points from this JP granth is historical.. u should know that historical granths dont have full authority.

These historical granths states a lot of contradictory topics.. like gursikhs eating meat (as quoted in the JP granth),

gursikhs not eating meat (pritham tajaho aamikh ko khaana, karho jaas hit jeevan haana||7|| sabh raakash ko naam japayo, aamikh khaan tinahe tajvaayo||18||, guru nanak prakash, adhyay 55)

suraj prakash granth, raas 1, ansoo 26 - updesh of guru Angad Dev ji to Sheehe against meat eating and saved 100 goats (itne jeevan hinsaa karai, paap bisaal apan sir dharai ||7|| and lot more)

guru sahib condemning rituals, guru sahib doing shraadh,

guruji saying no to intoxicants, guru sahib getting intoxicated,

guru sahib saying no to jewellery, gur sahib wearing earrings,

different granths describing amrit sanchar in differently (kirpan, or khanda?)

so many doubts come to mind...

the best way as per baba hari singh ji randhaway wale explained is to do vichaar on gurbani.. and only after conclusion, we should try to fit the historical verses in the conclusion, if they fail, they shld be out.

read the meanings of any shabad regarding diet.. if doubt share it on this forum and we all will do veechar.

*****************************************************************************************

are meat eating sikhs not sikhs?

I have no hate, as long as they following akaal takhat maryada, we all are khalsa.

but all i say is that eating meat for svaad is not gurmat. Eating meat has been for survival (that too self jhatka and not going to market and buying chaanp or leg piece from shops or kfc or frozen, total unbibek), during jang times if needs arises. else satoguni bhojan is best for spiritual upliftment.

WJKK WJKF

please read the whole thread

[BhagatSingh]

thats the thing we have hukam to be tyaar bar tyar , so it doesnt matter if you have that environment or not .

khalsa is kashatriya , so meat it essential part , i am not saying we should all eat it. it just depends on an individual to eat or not

The teaching of Guru Granth Sahib is quite clear. In the end, it is upto the individual on how they want to live.

Vegetarianism doesn't work for everyone. There was a guy who responded to your last thread who fell ill after going on a veggy diet.

"Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took tohunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice

.

Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46" ???

Also I should mention that hunting is not necessarily eating meat. Hunting is a sport, the primary goal isn't to eat the animal but to hunt it, to play a game. We know Guru Sahib also played sports like falconry, and the meat from hunting can be used as food for the falcon.

The case with Guru Hargobind Sahib was more about asserting his authority as a leader a king. So he played the high-class sports of the mughals and rajputs like hunting and falconry.

So I have doubts about what Mobad is saying. Is he inferring the meat eating from hunting or is that independent observation. That's something to look into if you are into research.

one more interesting read

That book is pretty long, if you want to discuss any contents you should present them in the forum.

What about if you don't?

Are you going to wait until problems land on your doorstep before you start to train? Isn't that lack of foresight in a obviously volatile world?

What about training so you can also help other people in your community instead of leaving them to the wolves when they get outnumbered?

Then train. No one is stopping you from training and learning how to defend yourself or others. Just don't forget about the teachings while you are at it.

[dalsingh101]

Then train. No one is stopping you from training and learning how to defend yourself or others. Just don't forget about the teachings while you are at it.

What about the people who hide behind the teachings but make no effort whatsoever to be physically capable like a Singh is supposed to be?

Like all those pot bellied granthis.

You know yourself, as per Giani Gian SIngh's observations, it was a norm for Sikhs to be physically training in martial arts before annexation. This was a continuation of practice put in place by dasmesh pita - the tyaar bar tyaar thing people talk about. How comes so many people excuse away laziness and cowardliness by hiding behind the 'teachings'?

The consequences are obvious - Sikhs regularly getting their arses kicked and their girls being abused under their noses.

That being said - I think the message has started to get through to keshdhari Sikhs in London, these days I see a fair few that look like they seriously train it out on the tube. It's about time too....

Too many 'Singhs' have been like the lion in The wizard of Oz

Edited August 22, 2014 by dalsingh101