Afur Braham Creating Universe?

[curious_man]

WJKK WJKF,

I was reading a puratan teeka and the teekaar poses a doubt and then answers it. But the answer was not clear for me, so i m asking you all to clear it for me..

it is generally said in all puratan teekay that when oh ik braham nu jad furna hoya ki sansar di utpati kiti jaye then sansar came into being and they quote "eko han baho syam prajaye ye". then teekakar poses a question.. plz see the attached file.

dhanvaad!

Edited August 21, 2014 by curious_man

[BhagatSingh]

What do you understand so far?

[curious_man]

well..

if Braham is afur, then how can there be a furnaa of creation?

--- example is given of iron piece. Iron piece is "afur", but when a magnet is placed near it, it starts doing action (movement of coming near to magnet). in the same way, when agyaan has "kalpit sambandh" with braham, then braham gets a furnaa.

the same thing is explained by harbhajan singh dhudikey waley in rut 5 adhyay 42 (aatam gyan vichar) of suraj prakash granth Agyaan explained from 39:00 - 41:30 .

www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Harbhajan_Singh_%28Dhudikey%29/Sri_Gurpartap_Sooraj_Parkash_Granth/Patshahi_10_-_Sri_Guru_Gobind_Singh_Ji/Giani.Harbhajan.Singh.%28Dhudikey%29--205.Sooraj.Prakash.Katha.-.Rut.05.Adhyai.42.-.Aatam.Vichar.mp3

singhs ask pyara bhai dya singh ji about what is agyaan. it is explained tht agyaan is without shape, is not born, kalpit maatar hi braham de ik desh vich rehnda hai, unjj braham ch nahi hounda.

my doubt is in the word "kalpit". wht does it mean? how can it be that "lets assume there is agyaan".. either agyaan is in braham or not.. if not then how come there is furna..? if yes, then how come agyaan is in braham which is satchitanand..

infact this is one of the point where advaitists get hammered by other school of thoughts!!

u got my point?

Edited August 22, 2014 by curious_man

[BhagatSingh]

Yeah I get your point. I haven't encountered anything like in Guru Granth Sahib.

I saw your post about maya chetan/chetan maya. This phrase is not present in Guru Granth Sahib either.

my doubt is in the word "kalpit". wht does it mean?

means ਬਣਾਈ ਹੋਈ, ਨਕਲੀ

---------------

Anyways, I was meditating the other day (I had your question in the back of my mind) and I noticed that in that state I can do things without having a Furna. I can create without there being a cause or a reason. I was painting in a concentrated stat, a thoughtness/afur, flow state without any furna. In this state, I noticed that I was most creative.

So my understanding of your question is that Parbrahmn creates spontaneously. Its in His nature, as a Creative Man/Consciousness ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ . It's in his nature to be creative.

So Brahmn is simply being as He is, creative. The result is creation.

To bring it back to his answer. It's in the nature of the seed to grow into a giant tree. The seed doesn't think about it, doesn't worry about it or anything like that it simply sits there in stillness and Expands into a tree! It's spontaneous, it's creative, it's Afur.

Edited August 25, 2014 by BhagatSingh

[savinderpalsingh]

what tika is that?

[curious_man]

WJKK WJKF

wah wah, wonderful analogy and experience!! thx for the reply.

yes i know the meaning of kalpit, but i wanted to know why the word kalpit is used in this context?

1.it could have been explained that agyaan is not present in akaalpurakh (then does HE "creates" agyaan?)

2.it is present (how come satchitanand roop has agyaan.. tht means HE is not sat?)

if creating universe is without furna and it is HIS nature to create, then what about the time when there was Nothingness? if we say, that creation is HIS nature as HE is in sun smadhi and thus afur, and creation just happens, then that means creation is anaadi (beginningless) but thats not the case as per Sukhmani's 21st astpadi and raag Maroo Mehla 1.

so HE must had a furnaa (is ਫੁਰਨਾ different than ੲਿੱਛਾ?) due to the presence of agyaan. but agyaan is not present in brahmn --- u see thats a vicious circle going back to points 1&2?

or is it just me getting too much inside this mud?

what tika is that?

prabodh chandrodya natak.

[BhagatSingh]

or is it just me getting too much inside this mud?

You need to understand the knowledge of Brahmn comes from connecting with Brahmn. You have to meditate on Brahmn to gain the knowledge. So merely thinking about it is like delving in to mud. Thinking about it is good but you have to meditate at some point. Only by meditating can you come out as a lotus.

When you said that (in quotes), I knew you had exhausted your thinking. THIS is a good time to begin meditation. At any time when thinking becomes temporarily exhausted, when " " happens, you should go into your atma and rest there. And there the knowledge is obtained. Try to access this place again and again.

I can give you my answers but they will never be your answers and to find your answers you have to meditate. It's simple.

If you want to keep discussing that's fine too so if that's what you are interested in, the discussion aspect, then we can continue.

So with regards to questions of Brahmn.

The first issue is that Brahmn cannot be defined. Because a definition itself entails a restriction, and Brahmn is unrestricted, He has no limits.

Brahmn cannot be talked about so easily. He can only be experienced and tasted. You can taste sugar but you cannot describe this taste to someone who has never touched sugar.

So Brahmn when talked about has different definitions depending on the situation and background, and on concepts that are being explained.

Now to the questions-

1.it could have been explained that agyaan is not present in akaalpurakh (then does HE "creates" agyaan?)

You don't create agyan, it arises with the lack of gyan. And gyan/knowledge here refers to the tasting of Brahmn not to any intellectual capacity.

For agyan to exist all Brahmn has to do is create beings who have a smaller perspective than He does. A smaller, narrower perspective has agyan of the bigger perspective.

By smaller perspective I mean, the beings have a perspective that is focused around themselves - Atma. And because they are a very small part of the entire creation, their perspective is narrowed.

2.it is present (how come satchitanand roop has agyaan.. tht means HE is not sat?)

So the sum total of all the smaller perspectives is the largest perspective - Brahmn. Thus, Agyan process is in Brahmn, but He is ultimately Sat. The Sun gives off light but each individual molecule that reacts to give off such light is dark. On some level even the Sun has darkness. parts - dark, whole - light

Light and dark are dualities. Ignorance and knowledge are dualities. Brahmn transcends all dualities.

if creating universe is without furna and it is HIS nature to create, then what about the time when there was Nothingness? if we say, that creation is HIS nature as HE is in sun smadhi and thus afur, and creation just happens, then that means creation is anaadi (beginningless) but thats not the case as per Sukhmani's 21st astpadi and raag Maroo Mehla 1.

"HE is in sun smadhi and thus afur, and creation just happens"

Sun Samadhi by definition is a moment when He is not creating but enjoying Nothingness. If He was creating, then it wouldn't be called Sun Samadhi.

"creation just happens"

If it happens how is it anaadi?

so HE must had a furnaa (is ਫੁਰਨਾ different than ੲਿੱਛਾ?) due to the presence of agyaan. but agyaan is not present in brahmn --- u see thats a vicious circle going back to points 1&2?

What is your definition of Furna?

[savinderpalsingh]

is it this one?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62577678/PRABODHA-CHANDRODAYA-by-KRISHNA-MISHRA-YATI

[curious_man]

Thanks for the great replies. Sorry for being late, I was not in town.

is it this one?

Good find savinderpal ji. Thats the one, though its from sanskrit to english. Pandit Gulab Singh ji translated Krishna Mishra's work from sanskrit to braj. I am reading a teeka for this work.

You need to understand the knowledge of Brahmn comes from connecting with Brahmn. You have to meditate on Brahmn to gain the knowledge. So merely thinking about it is like delving in to mud. Thinking about it is good but you have to meditate at some point. Only by meditating can you come out as a lotus.

When you said that (in quotes), I knew you had exhausted your thinking. THIS is a good time to begin meditation. At any time when thinking becomes temporarily exhausted, when " " happens, you should go into your atma and rest there. And there the knowledge is obtained. Try to access this place again and again.

I totally agree. I felt like i was dozing and u just shaked me up Yes, Gurprasad I'll try to put more time in simran and I hope the time will soon come when I update this thread with my own conclusion . Thanks.

The first issue is that Brahmn cannot be defined. Because a definition itself entails a restriction, and Brahmn is unrestricted, He has no limits.

Brahmn cannot be talked about so easily. He can only be experienced and tasted. You can taste sugar but you cannot describe this taste to someone who has never touched sugar.

So Brahmn when talked about has different definitions depending on the situation and background, and on concepts that are being explained.

I agree. Aap aapnee Budh Hai Jaytee, Barnat Bhinn Bhinn Tuhe Taytee||

You don't create agyan, it arises with the lack of gyan. And gyan/knowledge here refers to the tasting of Brahmn not to any intellectual capacity.

For agyan to exist all Brahmn has to do is create beings who have a smaller perspective than He does. A smaller, narrower perspective has agyan of the bigger perspective.

By smaller perspective I mean, the beings have a perspective that is focused around themselves - Atma. And because they are a very small part of the entire creation, their perspective is narrowed.

So the sum total of all the smaller perspectives is the largest perspective - Brahmn. Thus, Agyan process is in Brahmn, but He is ultimately Sat. The Sun gives off light but each individual molecule that reacts to give off such light is dark. On some level even the Sun has darkness. parts - dark, whole - light

Light and dark are dualities. Ignorance and knowledge are dualities. Brahmn transcends all dualities.

So, its like saying that Brahmn is Sarvagya while jeev is Alpagya. And this alpagyatta is the cause of agyan. Ocean can see all drops, but drops cant see the whole ocean. So, from Ocean (Brhmn) point of view, there is no agyan. Agyan is only from drops (jeev) point of view. Thts y the word kalpit is used, and that too from the jeev point of view. – Have I inferred it corectly?

"HE is in sun smadhi and thus afur, and creation just happens"

Sun Samadhi by definition is a moment when He is not creating but enjoying Nothingness. If He was creating, then it wouldn't be called Sun Samadhi.

"creation just happens"

If it happens how is it anaadi?

I might have not used proper words, but I mean to say that, as you said earlier, Brhamn created universe spontaneously and Gurbani says that universe is not anaadi, hence, it has been created.

So, there must have been a time when there was no creation. But, at the time of such “Nothingness”, Brahmn is in sun smadhi and thus afur.

So, you mean to say that even in such afur avastha/sun smaadhi, He is spontaneously creating universe??? (which contradicts afur avastha/sun smaadhi)??

What is your definition of Furna?

Furnaa according to me is a thought that arises even if you are not relating to that thought. For example, you are studying calculus with full concentration in the middle of night and suddenly a thought comes to mind that you want to have a double chocolate fudge icecream.

Thts a furnaa, even though ure actions and the continuous streamline of thoughts are nowhere related to icecream, but it still comes up because sometime in the past u had such icecream or u had a will to have such icecream and thus got registered. And since, most people without meditation cant control such furnaas hence they encounter it.

Edited September 4, 2014 by curious_man

[BhagatSingh]

So, its like saying that Brahmn is Sarvagya while jeev is Alpagya. And this alpagyatta is the cause of agyan. Ocean can see all drops, but drops cant see the whole ocean. So, from Ocean (Brhmn) point of view, there is no agyan. Agyan is only from drops (jeev) point of view. Thts y the word kalpit is used, and that too from the jeev point of view. – Have I inferred it corectly?

You see our consciousness is limited to our form, our body and our surroundings. It can only know that which is related to itself. It is self-centered (haumai). Try to imagine a consciousness is that is not limited to any form.

I might have not used proper words, but I mean to say that, as you said earlier, Brhamn created universe spontaneously and Gurbani says that universe is not anaadi, hence, it has been created.

So, there must have been a time when there was no creation. But, at the time of such “Nothingness”, Brahmn is in sun smadhi and thus afur.

So, you mean to say that even in such afur avastha/sun smaadhi, He is spontaneously creating universe??? (which contradicts afur avastha/sun smaadhi)??

Furnaa according to me is a thought that arises even if you are not relating to that thought. For example, you are studying calculus with full concentration in the middle of night and suddenly a thought comes to mind that you want to have a double chocolate fudge icecream.

Thts a furnaa, even though ure actions and the continuous streamline of thoughts are nowhere related to icecream, but it still comes up because sometime in the past u had such icecream or u had a will to have such icecream and thus got registered. And since, most people without meditation cant control such furnaas hence they encounter it.

With us it's

Calculus -> furna "I want to eat ice cream, I am so hungry. <followed by other random thoughts until we reach the fridge>" -> "ooh the box is cold... ok let me scoop it in this bowl <followed by other random thoughts>" -> proceed to eat icecream while still thinking about random stuff that we forget 2 seconds later. It's only when you pay attention will you notice all this.

Skilled meditators can minimize thought to the point where everything flows spontaneously. They'll have a craving in their belly and they'll walk over to the fridge, feel that it is cold with their hand and eat the ice cream with their mouth and taste the cold, delicious cream with their tongue (the entire thing is a savouring process). There is no intermediary dialogue or furna. Everything just happens, it just flows. (Guru Nanak Dev ji says "hukm rajai chalna" in the first pauri. This is what he is talking about.)

[SAadmin]

Deep thread, i have to read this over and over again to grasp whats going on here

In the meantime, try to hold on to when we all get up right from deep sleep- how everything spontaneously gets unfold itself into creation but prior to that deep sleep- unborn there is no world there..regular joe blow like me can relate to this on deep sleep level but i heard from sage joking around saying- braham state is like awaken divine coma- braham does not have furna, everything is spontaneous happening unfolding, folding back.