Question On Gurmat Rehet Maryada (Damdami Taksal)

[Singh123456777]

savinderpalsingh ji, one of the gifts I have been given by Waheguru Ji is in my singing. To be told by anyone, that because of my gender I am not allowed to do kirtan, would be devestating. AT least its only at Harmandir Sahib that they have affected.

What the hell are you talking about??? The DDT have no control over Harmandar sahib so how would they stop bibis from doing kirtan there? It is the Akaal Takhat who is run by the sgpc which you believe wholeheartedly who banned them.

[Singh123456777]

It wasnt SGPC who changed it... SGPC were the ones who ruled that it was allowed.

"The Damdami Taksal, yesterday outrightly rejected the proposal for allowing the baptised women to perform kirtan [hymn singing] inside the Harmandir Sahib, the sanctum sanctorum of Golden Temple.

The Damdami Taksal's resolve to oppose this move was also supported by the Sant Samaj, a conglomerate of Sikh preachers headed by Baba Sarbjot Singh Bedi, at a function here on the occasion of the death anniversary of Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale.

It may be recalled that the S.G.P.C. had last week taken the decision to allow women to perform kirtan inside the Harmandir Sahib. The decision had been taken at a meeting of the S.G.P.C.'s Religious Advisory Board."

What crap are your spewing??? Here is an article that refutes your crap.

Takht chief frowns on sewa by women

Varinder Walia

Tribune News Service

Amritsar, October 11

The demand to allow baptised Sikh women to perform kirtan and seva inside the sanctum sanctorum of the Golden Temple raised a controversy again at a seminar organised by the Global United Sikh Women Organisation here today.

When Dr Mohinder Kaur Gill, a Sikh scholar, wanted the inclusion of baptised women among Panj Piyare ( Five Beloved Ones), Jathedar, Akal Takht, Giani Gurbachan Singh chided her for raising such sensitive issues publicly. He, however, said such matters should have been taken up by the sub-committee of SGPC representatives, Akal Takht, Sikh intellectuals and baptised women.

Rajinder Singh Mehta, member, executive committee, SGPC, at the function said women could not be allowed to participate in Panj Piyare or perform kirtan/seva due to a variety of reasons. He said the Almighty had differentiated man from woman at the time of birth, hence nobody should raise such a demand.

Dr Mohinder Kaur, contradicting her own point, said the SGPC had given certain administrative reasons for disallowing women to clean the sanctum sanctorum or carry Guru Granth Sahib in a palanquin, but there was no valid reason to deny them a chance to perform kirtan.

Bibi Jagir Kaur, after taking over as SGPC chief in 1999, had announced to treat baptised women on a par with men for discharging religious duties in the Golden Temple. Earlier, then acting Jathedar, Akal Takht, Prof Manjit Singh had taken a jatha of baptised women to perform seva in the sanctum sanctorum, along with wife of Harbhajan Singh Yogi. Later, notwithstanding her announcement on February 3, 2003, Bibi Kiranjot Kaur, a former general secretary, SGPC, could not arrange kirtan in the sanctum sanctorum.

Gender discrimination in the Golden Temple was highlighted at the international level on February 15, 2003, when two England-based Sikh women were allegedly assaulted by SGPC sevadars during sukhasan (carrying Guru Granth Sahib in palanquin) in the Golden Temple .

Earlier, at the seminar Dr Upinderjit Kaur, education minister, said to preserve moral and ethical values in society, women should have to do introspection to awaken society ethically, morally and artistically by eradicating social evils.

Women and organisations, including GND University, Punjabi University, SGPC, Kendri Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Chandigarh, and Naad Pargaas Sri Amritsar participated in the seminar. The minister congratulated Dr Jasbir Kaur, president, and said such seminars would help form an ideal society.

[savinderpalsingh]

i think its only in case of mensuration , the same thing is not allowed for Singh's if any-of them had a night fall

i gave you a real incident of a singh who went into hazur sahib's boundary after lying to jatherdar that he had a full body bath

and a shaheed singh broke his leg

thats the sucham concept

[CdnSikhGirl]

There is a sucham concept about it as well. Women have periods and they won't be able to do any seva when they are on their period. I have a mother and sister who both do Prakash and sukhasan of guru ji but they never ever do it when they are on their period because of reasons only a women knows. If you say that women can do seva when they are on their period then you don't care about sucham.

Would you say a man who has cut his finger is unclean with a bandaid covering it? Should he then avoid doing seva until his cut heals?

This idea of blood being somehow unclean is against sikhi. Blood is a life force. Its not dirt. A woman during that time of the month is no less clean than any other time. Thats just foolishness - Bhraminism at its best! Let's look at Gurbani for the asnwer:

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥

Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.

As a woman has her periods, month after month,

ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.

so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.

ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥

Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.

They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies.

ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥

Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||

Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

[savinderpalsingh]

heres your lovely sgpc penji

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/7261-wish-of-mardanas-descendent-may-not-be-fulfilled/

[savinderpalsingh]

penji would you let someone who has his or her clothes covered in shit to enter gurudwara?

its all in your head, as i said you are not accepting , everything

have you listened to whole katha of guru granth sahib ji? i prefer you to learn our language and listen to it

many questions arrise from literal translations and western people dont get deeper meaning to it .

its not only limited to women , it applys to men as well

its a version or taking about food , its not about how you enter gurudwara

does it mean that you are allowed to touch gurbani with saliva covered hands? are you kidding me?

Edited August 27, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Singh123456777]

Would you say a man who has cut his finger is unclean with a bandaid covering it? Should he then avoid doing seva until his cut heals?

]

Yes he should avoid seva until his finger heals. Imagine if the band aid came off and and he was doing langar seva. That would be no hygienic.

It's not brahmnisim(I think you do not understand this word cause your throwing it aroun all over the place) its a matter of being clean. If I went to the washroom and did number 2 can I go and do seva or hukamnama? No because I would not be clean. Same thing with the period for women.

[Singh123456777]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji says to wash hands after doing number 1 or 2. Most goray don't even wash their hands! That's disgusting!

[Singh123456777]

English translations are crap by the way. If you want to know the meaning of gurbani to the full extent than the only way is by reading them in punjabi. One of the best steeks is the faridkot Vala teeka but the punjabi is so hard that it's even hard for me to understand!

[Singh123456777]

Most English meanings are totally different compared to their punjabi counterpart.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Anyway none of you have answered my original question. That being that the Gurmat Rehet Maryada states 'Singh' in all of the seva (aside from langar) that includes Ragees/kirtan, chaur sahib seva, akhand paaths, granthi, etc. All of them state 'singh' which is the same argument people quote to show that women can not be Panj Pyare. I did not get that translation from anyone else for the GRM. It was from Damdami Taksal's own website. And I earlier posted screenshots from a DDT member that confirmed it.

Yet Sant Jarnail Singh Ji spoke against all of it except for Panj Pyare. So who is correct? Is it the Gurmat Rehet Maryada? If so, then why would a Sant speak against it? Or was he correct? And if so, that shows the Rehet itself is in need of some editing / updating for today's society.

And yes... women WOULD be stopped completely if they tried to do kirtan at Harmandir Sahib. Or Palki seva, etc.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Yes he should avoid seva until his finger heals. Imagine if the band aid came off and and he was doing langar seva. That would be no hygienic.

It's not brahmnisim(I think you do not understand this word cause your throwing it aroun all over the place) its a matter of being clean. If I went to the washroom and did number 2 can I go and do seva or hukamnama? No because I would not be clean. Same thing with the period for women.

Well luckily there are drugs that completely stop women's cycles. You can actually take birth control pills continually... or take the injection (liek I do), or IUD. All those options completely stop any chance of cycle alltogether.

So if we are really that unclean or impure during that time as you say.... I dont see why washing wouldnt work for that as well? Even for those who don't take drugs to stop their cycles, there are means to keep it entirely 'internal' (without getting into details, but there are products made just for that). A woman during that time anyway would have absolutely no chance of getting anything into food during langar seva or getting anything anywhere near SGGSJ. Its not like she bleeds from her whole body, and doesn't wash her hands etc... wow... I cant believe what i am reading.

Someone who just went #2 and washed their hands... or a woman who just washed her hands after dealing with her cycle... same thing.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji says to wash hands after doing number 1 or 2. Most goray don't even wash their hands! That's disgusting!

I agree! Everyone should... that's just basic hygene! eewww and its not most goray?? wow... everyone I know does.

So am I to asume now that you guys think all the discrimination are because women have cycles?? You guys have completely diverted the question I posed in the original post. And instead now you are attacking women for natural biological functions.

[Singh123456777]

...

Edited August 27, 2014 by Singh123456777

[CdnSikhGirl]

savinderpalsingh ji,

I did not say I agree with everything SGPC does. Like any they have their faults. I think DDT have MORE faults though. They are tredding on close terriroty to being the Taliban of Sikhi in their views of women.

I just that the SRM in my opinion is the closest ideal to what our Gurus taught, and it passes the test in agreement with SGGSJ most closely. I don't see anywhere in SGGSJ that states to treat women as beneath men, or to discriminate against women. I see only messages that the same divine light is in everyone equally. How can you say that that same light in one form is any less pure than that same light in another? SGGSJ doesn't say its more pure in men, and less pure in women. SGGSJ doesnt say that the divine light in female form is any less than in male form. Or that the divine light in male form is more privelaged.

I have a feeling that unless I become a male however, none of you will ever have any sort of respect for me being female. I am starting to think I need to do just that in order to be accepted. You know, my cousin is actually doing just that...funny thing is, one transitioned, she would actually be accepted more than me in Sikhi it seems. Or (then he) would be able to do more than me anyway.

[Singh123456777]

Well luckily there are drugs that completely stop women's cycles. You can actually take birth control pills continually... or take the injection (liek I do), or IUD. All those options completely stop any chance of cycle alltogether.

So if we are really that unclean or impure during that time as you say.... I dont see why washing wouldnt work for that as well? Even for those who don't take drugs to stop their cycles, there are means to keep it entirely 'internal' (without getting into details, but there are products made just for that). A woman during that time anyway would have absolutely no chance of getting anything into food during langar seva or getting anything anywhere near SGGSJ. Its not like she bleeds from her whole body, and doesn't wash her hands etc... wow... I cant believe what i am reading.

Someone who just went #2 and washed their hands... or a woman who just washed her hands after dealing with her cycle... same thing.

I agree! Everyone should... that's just basic hygene! eewww and its not most goray?? wow... everyone I know does.

So am I to asume now that you guys think all the discrimination are because women have cycles?? You guys have completely diverted the question I posed in the original post. And instead now you are attacking women for natural biological functions.

Do all women do injections? Nobody in India does it and no amritdhari would do it cause it is not natural. The reason for keeping our hair or not peircing our ears is to be all natural. It wouldn't be natural if women do injection or drugs etc.

I don't have a peoblem with women doing seva(excluding panj pyare seva) but dont do it when on period. I think 99 percent of amritdhari bibis would agree with me.

[Singh123456777]

I have a feeling that unless I become a male however, none of you will ever have any sort of respect for me being female. I am starting to think I need to do just that in order to be accepted. You know, my cousin is actually doing just that...funny thing is, one transitioned, she would actually be accepted more than me in Sikhi it seems. Or (then he) would be able to do more than me anyway.

I have less respect for you when you make idiotic statements like the one above not because of you being a female. Guru ji respects women. There have been many Sikh warrior bibis such as Mata Sahib Kaur, Mata Bhag Kaur(Mai Bhago) who was Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bodyguard etc. Without a woman I would not be here today(dosent mean that a father was not needed).

I have a question for you: Do you think we all are sexist bigot who have our head up our ass? That we are backward crazy fanatics?

[Singh123456777]

Have you ever read dasam Granth? I bet if you did you would disregard it even though Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj wrote every word. Even the sgpc believes in it.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Singh123456777

[Singh123456777]

I'll answer your original question by using an answer you aka simarjot on sikh Sangat said.

"Just because some of the rehet maryadas say 'Singhs' is not meant to discriminate or allow based on gender. It was explained to me by an SGPC Jathedar that it's used more in the same light as the word Khalsa... women and men both take Amrit, but yet the male form of the word Khalsa is used. Same as in Engligh man = mankind (women and men). "

[Singh123456777]

I think this wraps it up.

[savinderpalsingh]

or if that simarjot guy is her friend , then i guess i know how she got this weird "i know it all" attitude

no offense

[Singh123456777]

or if that simarjot guy is her friend , then i guess i know how she got this weird "i know it all" attitude

no offense

Lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

excuse me... but I am backing up all my statements with gurbani! How about you??

All I have seen you guys do is say that "well, so and so said it so it must be true"... or "it's tradition"... or "learn the culture"... or perhaps my most favourite... "just accept it". I have not seen any of you actually try to justify your answers using Gurbani! My original post was a valid question! I read GRM so I could better unserdtand your position. I was told in the other thread that DDT do not discriminate women except for Panj Pyare. So I went to DDT own website to research and give you the benefit of the doubt.

However, when I actually read the GRM, it was apparent this is not true. Women are in fact discriminated from nearly all seva by DDT. So that guy who told me on Facebook was actually right (the one I posted screenshots from i the other thread). My questions were regarding the statement about women considering men as God, and men considering women as followers. And also the usage of 'Singh' in all the seva listed in GRM. When it is you guys who are saying things like "here's the quote from GRM, it states Singhs for Panj Pyare so women can't be end of story" - using that same argument, you can't disagree with the other places where it states 'Singh'. So I was trying to get you to clarify this discrepency.

You state you fully believe 100% in the GRM and consider SRM as garbage (actually I believe you called it worse than that savinderpalsingh ji), but yet both of you are saying you disagree with the parts in GRM where it says 'Singh' everywhere else? You can't apply the rule in one spot and not another... I am only asking for clarification from YOUR point of view. Not answers of "just because" or "just accept it" I am looking for honest answers, that agree with Gurbani which should dispell any doubts. As Sikhs are we not all supposed to be seekers and search for the truth? What kind of Sikhs would we be then, if we just 'accepted' everything we are told by someone else without learning on our own?

Instead all of you keep saying the same thing over and over... "just because" "just accept it" "It's tradition" etc. - It looks to me that I am the only one who is trying to learn! I am actually trying to apply Gurbani to both GRM and SRM to substantiate it. SGGSJ is supposed to be our highest authority is it not? So I can't see how any RM could disagree with it. Especially in translations of single tuks, which when the whole shabad is read, have nothing to do with how it's being used in the GRM. Jaikara Ji also agrees with the meaning of that shabad so its not only me who sees it.

These were VALID questions that all of you have avoided and instead attacked me, calling me a man hater. I don't hate men. However I feel sorry for the men who can't see the divine light EQUALLY in everyone and feel they must always be 'above' women. Luckily there are plenty of Sikh men who do not fall into this thinking and my Singh is one of those. He actually fights for women's rights at Sri Harmandir Sahib!

I have a friend Kirpal Singh Ji who is a university professor who I told about this forum. I think he started posting on a different forum by accident, but I myself am only on this forum and Sikh Philosophy Network. Kirpal Singh btw is 67 years old and has a lot of knowledge under his belt. He is not a know it all. He studied with SMC.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Singh123456777]

"Just because some of the rehet maryadas say 'Singhs' is not meant to discriminate or allow based on gender. It was explained to me by an SGPC Jathedar that it's used more in the same light as the word Khalsa... women and men both take Amrit, but yet the male form of the word Khalsa is used. Same as in Engligh man = mankind (women and men). "

Hope this wraps it up.

[Singh123456777]

I live in toronto and I frequent a taksali gurduwara and I see bibis doing parshad seva to chaur sahib seva etc every single day. I also know of other taksali gurduwaras doing the same. This year the taksali gurduwara I frequent had a whole day sukhmani sahib reading smagam from Sri guru Granth sahib ji in the main hall for Mara sahib kaur birthday. My sister participated.

The Singhs from DDT are in a taksal(school) which doesn't have any women so all the singhs have to do the seva. That's could be possibly another reason why Singh is written all over the place.

[Singh123456777]

Are we done here? Neo paaji please close this thread.