India Untouched: Research Documentary

[ashok kalia]

A disturbing video on untouchability in present day India. Click on the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgDGmYdhZvU

Edited October 24, 2014 by ashok kalia

[Amandeep Hindustani]

Hmm..the gurus and others did speak up against the caste system but this is about the practical application of religion, and not about the nicety of granths and history.

[Kulsingh5]

The gurus spoke about the abolishment of caste system on spiritual level and that spirituality starts in the Ahsrams and Gurudwars.

Caste in daily life will never be abolished, unless the Indian mentality changes.

[ashok kalia]

The hindu vedas give us reasons why the evil caste system is so important for the hindu society till this day and age:

http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/caste.html

[dalsingh101]

I don't think the Sikh caste system is anything to do with the Hindu one.

It's its own beast.

A strange sort of projection of pendu feudalism.

[starchpagg47]

We tarkhans are highest caste.

[ASJ]

We tarkhans are highest caste.

We are all made of flesh, bones and blood. Here read this and see how cruel it is to believe in the caste system, dear starchpagg47. Your pagg looks very beautiful.

This will make you cry.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/lynching-boy-underlines-curse-caste-still-blights-india

Edited October 25, 2014 by ASJ

[ASJ]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11185683/Indian-priest-thrashes-untouchable-boy-8-who-asked-for-sweets.html

Edited October 25, 2014 by ASJ

[dalsingh101]

ASJ

Sikhs have to face up the reality that hordes of 'apnay' are rampant casteists who are perfectly happy with it and even fight to preserve their perceived 'advantage'.

Edited October 25, 2014 by dalsingh101

[ASJ]

I know and it is very sad and cruel to judge others according to their caste. We are all human at the end of the day.

[dalsingh101]

It's deeper than that; it's actually a vile corruption in Sikh society that undermines us.

How can Sikhs go on about their Gurus enlightened egalitarianism when they have rampant, extreme, odious discrimination going on between themselves?

[ASJ]

It's deeper than that; it's actually a vile corruption in Sikh society that undermines us.

How can Sikhs go on about their Gurus enlightened egalitarianism when they have rampant, extreme, odious discrimination going on between themselves?

The gurus spoke about the abolishment of caste system on spiritual level and that spirituality starts in the Ahsrams and Gurudwars.

Caste in daily life will never be abolished, unless the Indian mentality changes.

The Sikh Gurus did abolish it but it is a certain culture that still encourages it.

[dalsingh101]

The Sikh Gurus did abolish it but it is a certain culture that still encourages it.

And what culture might that be?

I hope you aren't going to say 'Hindu culture' and fob the whole issue away as the result of outside influence?!

[ASJ]

And what culture might that be?

I hope you aren't going to say 'Hindu culture' and fob the whole issue away as the result of outside influence?!

It is a certain culture the sikhs are following. Which culture(s) were predominant at the times of our Gurus. Which religious thinking legitimized the caste system, sati, kurri mar, donating female children to the temples etc? May be you can answer my queries. I am not trying to 'fob' anything away. My aim is to understand the reasons why sikhs still follow everything the Gurus tried to abolish.

Edited October 26, 2014 by ASJ

[dalsingh101]

It is a certain culture the sikhs are following. Which culture(s) were predominant at the times of our Gurus.

Which religious thinking legitimized the caste system, sati, kurri mar, donating female children to the temples etc? May be you can answer my queries. I am not trying to 'fob' anything away.

That's the first fallacy. NOW, in (at least East) Panjab Sikhs are dominant and well established. No one compels or tricks Sikhs into acting like they do, they do it themselves. Once you externalise the problem, you essentially remove the agency of Sikhs to do anything about the problems by shifting causes on others.

The caste system of Sikhs is not the Hindu one. It's a totally different thing, where the peasantry are trying to assert their perceived superiority. If it were the Hindu system we'd have Bahmans and others trying to assert their supposed superiority and privilege but they were knocked out of the game a while ago. We don't have any big issue with sati. The kurri maar problem lies more in our own cultural practices of dowry, honour and hypergamy than Hinduism. Sikhs don't 'donate' daughters to temples/Gurdwaras either. You must see the nuances!

Until you see that these problems are of our own making; and that the power to reverse things lies in our own hands - you're likely to totally misread the ground realities and blame our state on external forces; which is the easy and comforting thing to do. Instead you've got to put it on Sikhs themselves. This behaviour is disgraceful and unacceptable; and NOTHING excuses it.

My aim is to understand the reasons why sikhs still follow everything the Gurus tried to abolish.

What this possibly shows us is (1) just how hard old habits die; but (in my mind) more than this (2) is the way Sikh society today has come to accept hypocrisy with leaders (be they spiritual or political) largely too cowardly to fiercely confront this and make this a central agenda of the reform of our society. (3) The problems are made out to be either natural/unavoidable or are blamed on uncontrollable outside forces (i.e. Hindus) rather than the laziness and complacency on part of hordes of Sikhs on a personal, individual level which fans out to a societal characteristic.

Look, about a century and a half ago in Britain a lot of influential people (popular writers like Charles Dickens, politicians like Keir Hardie and various social activists and philanthropists) fought hard to change a lot of things in society that they deemed to be unacceptable (like child labour, cruel orphanages, exploitation of poor workers in factories, horrific prison conditions). That is what improved society here. They made people ashamed of indulging in such things and exposed them.

We need to do the same if we want change in our society.

The problem with blaming external forces like 'Hinduism' is that it indirectly excuses base behaviour by Sikhs as a consequence of their being manipulated by these external entities - instead of compelling them to examine and alter their own personal decisions and actions.

Edited October 26, 2014 by dalsingh101

[starchpagg47]

We are all made of flesh, bones and blood. Here read this and see how cruel it is to believe in the caste system, dear starchpagg47. Your pagg looks very beautiful.

This will make you cry.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/lynching-boy-underlines-curse-caste-still-blights-india

I support, he take care of goat he no get burnt.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹਿ । ।

[ASJ]

Dalsingh101

I tend to avoid the micro sociological view of society over the others. I tend to favor the the Functionalists' view over theirs'.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ

[dalsingh101]

Dalsingh101

I tend to avoid the micro sociological view of society over the others. I tend to favor the the Functionalists' view over theirs'.

I think this can easily lead to disempowerment.

People imagining some amorphous giant entity as the root cause of issues.

Something so intangible that it can't in reality be countered.

On the other hand, forcing reflection and examination of behaviour at the conscious individual level can and does make individuals change.

Then we can all clearly see and face the hardcore phudhoos who truly and vehemently believe in caste based oppression.

Edited October 28, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Kulsingh5]

The Sikh Gurus did abolish it but it is a certain culture that still encourages it.

Yes, I do agree but in everyday society it could not be abolished and especially in the times of the Gurus. Maybe this is the downfall of the Sikh dharam, the followers.

Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS, (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970),

Russell had this to say about Sikhism. "That if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them." Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war? In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it."

This statement above by Russell sums it up.

[ASJ]

Yes, I do agree but in everyday society it could not be abolished and especially in the times of the Gurus. Maybe this is the downfall of the Sikh dharam, the followers.

Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS, (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970),

Russell had this to say about Sikhism. "That if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them." Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war? In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it."

This statement above by Russell sums it up.

I totally agree. I think social reform in western societies was possible after the invention of conflict theory. This theory made people see how societies operated on day to day basis. It is this theory that pinpointed social weaknesses in western societies whereas the Functionalists were quite happy with the status quo.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ASJ

[dalsingh101]

I totally agree. I think social reform in western societies was possible after the invention of conflict theory. This theory made people see how societies operated on day to day basis. It is this theory that pinpointed social weaknesses in western societies whereas the Functionalists were quite happy with the status quo.

I think it is really important to (ultimately) cognise things as the result of individual actions (even when they work in concert). In terms of discrimination, this could be the personal behaviour of powerful elite individuals (say like Rupert Murdoch) who use their mechanisms to spread and bolster their worldview which informs the behaviour of those that buy into it. At ground level it's discriminatory behaviour on an inter-personal basis, be it verbal abuse/bullying, exclusion or what not.

Again, realising that confronting and putting people on the spot for their own personal behaviour is a far more powerful mechanism/tool than the top down approach which has people pointing fingers at gaseous villains like Hindus, the illuminati, RSS, Freemasons etc. etc. without actually directly challenging anything to try and cause real change.

Sure, use whatever theory to try and grasp the problem, but ultimately don't forget that underlying all these things are choices and decisions and everyday actions by individual people. We can do something about that.

Edited October 29, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Koi]

Nothing in the comments about saying whose faith is the "best".

You say this has a mark of an inferiority complex. What about your comment saying there are "20 others which praise Hinduism. ..". Is this unprovoked backlash not a mark of an inferiority complex?

[dalsingh101]

I agree:

I think Sikhs shouldn't use prominent westerner comments to somehow bolster themselves. We need to get away from this need many appear to have for validation from outsiders like lulloos. This is even more important when it often turns out that a particular quote cannot be traced and was probably created by some over-zealous fudhoos. Like our version of Muslims saying that Neil Armstrong heard Islamic prayers on the moon. lol

We should also note that we have a lot of ruralite types who go all gaga and misty eyed at any flattery and end up brainlessly jumping into bed with their flatterers. Sometimes the praise has ulterior political motives. Be a bit more astute than that.

Edited October 31, 2014 by dalsingh101

[starchpagg47]

I see such (fake and real) quotations as a mark of insecurity or inferiority complex.

Why do you need white man's certificate to prove that your faith is unique, the 'best'?

To every single one of such quotes about sikhism, there are 20 others which praise Hinduism or its granths like Bhagvat Gita. proves nothing to me.

You're not a hindu, you're a bramin.

We have taken gita and all those away from you.

Thise 'devtas' are just ancestors of gurus.

You have nothing now, which is why you behave as a slave.

[sanatan sikh]

http://www.kaurscorner.com/karvachauth/

Karva chauth, is a day wrongly observed by many Sikh women. According to Indian tradition, women keep fasts for the long age and prosperity of their husbands. For any Sikh woman to fast in this manner, they are undoubtedly turning their faces and minds away from Gurbani, denouncing their Sikh faith and engaging in anti-gurmat activities as Gurbani strictly forbids fasting :

ਵਰਤ ਨ ਰਹਉ ਨ ਮਹ ਰਮਦਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵੀ ਜੋ ਰਖੈ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ ॥੧॥

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan. I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end.

Guru Granth Sahib Jee (Ang 1136)

ਅੰਨੈ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜੋ ਨਰ ਹੋਵਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਪਨੀ ਖੋਵਹਿ ॥੨॥ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਾਖੰਡ ॥ ਨਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਰੰਡ ॥

One who abstains from this grain (of Naam and Gurmat), loses his honor in the three worlds. One who discards this grain, is practicing hypocrisy. She is neither a happy soul-bride, nor a widow.

Guru Granth Sahib Jee (Ang 873)

ਕਬੀਰ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੈ ਅਹੋਈ ਰਾਖੈ ਨਾਰਿ ॥ ਗਦਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਅਉਤਰੈ ਭਾਰੁ ਸਹੈ ਮਨ ਚਾਰਿ ॥੧੦੮॥

Kabeer, the woman who gives up meditation on the Lord, and observes the ritual fast of Ahoi, shall be reincarnated as a donkey, to carry heavy burdens. Guru Granth Sahib Jee (Ang 1370)

Sisters, this is a humble request to keep our faces towards our True Guru and be a Kaur of Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj, following in the mighty spiritual footsteps of Mai Bhago Kaur jee, and Mata Sahib Kaur jee or be a donkey carrying heavy burdens….

“From woman, man is born;

within woman, man is conceived;

to woman he is engaged and married.

Woman becomes his friend;

through woman, the future generations come.

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman;

to woman he is bound.

So why call her bad?

From her, kings are born.

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.”

– Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Ang 473

Edited November 1, 2014 by sanatan sikh