Authencity Of 52 Hakums Of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji- Split Topic Discussion

[savinderpalsingh]

so does that give you a reason to spoil your own tongue ?

and disrespect other sikhs? they did what they did which cant be undone right now, but correct what is infront of you

nanak fika boliye tan mann fika hoye

[dalsingh101]

so does that give you a reason to spoil your own tongue ?

and disrespect other sikhs? they did what they did which cant be undone right now, but correct what is infront of you

nanak fika boliye tan mann fika hoye

You're funny mate:

You open your mouth and try and condemn me with your holier than thou attitude, when you didn't have the bollocks/sense to condemn unnecessary murder only a few weeks ago; when you ludicrously tried to censure me for vehemently condemning it as backwards and counter-productive - if you recall.

If you've got complaints about me, it goes both ways.

Plus you want to get used to straight talking here by the way: if you're going to run your mouth about my use of foul language - you'd better open it up to condemn all the other bullshit going on in the panth right now too - casteism, alcoholism, hiding from problems like grooming, corrupt politics by the SGPC, rampant materialism, the emasculation of keshdhari Sikh men, how Sikh girls are behaving, widescale lack of Panjabi literacy skills in the diaspora; the list can go on.

So instead of focusing on petty things - go focus on the real problems we have because I tell you what: From where I'm sitting, with all the problems of grooming, increasing racism, neo-imperialistic government policies not to mention impending terrorist attacks - the things you seem to focus on as problems makes it look like you stuck in some hole away from the real world.

Edited December 8, 2014 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Anyway:

No one have the Gurmukhi text of the 52 hukams to post?

[Guest]

I just spoke to nirmale/taksali who studied gurmat vidya for 20 plus years. He advised 52 hakums are authentic work of sri guru gobind singh ji. However, 52 hakums contents that you read now its been exaggerated-strictfied, for lack better term -sharia fied, colored with abhramic notions as proper context were not shown. Upon question if bachans need to be read or followed like christian 10 commandments- Bhai sahib answer was no cannot be interperted or taken as christian commandments. These bachans or hakums were answer to questions of sikhs, some can be treated as basic guidelines not meant to be wrapped their head around it but meant to be read as basic beginner guidelines which were further divided into two categories- jatti- personal and kaumi- bachans are meant for sikh kaum.

 

The reason he believes 52 hakums of sri guru gobind singh ji 'written' now are bit exaggerated is because writer didn't know- actual context of the bachans as they were spoken out by sri guru gobind singh ji, some bachans were answer to sikh only meant for questioner state of mind/spiritual development.

 

He also mentioned- main essence of sikhi is Sri guru gobind singh ji bachan and sikhi- Jin Prem kiyo tin hi prabh paio ||

 

He provided two examples - different aspect/perspective of advises given in one from japji sahib and second one from sodar rehras sahib to prove emphasis on the context, see things in different aspects/perspectives (pakh).

 

My personal opinion is pretty much with bhai sahib ji is saying- i believe 52 hakums are authentic as well....i would see them from transcendental perspective mentioned in gurbani couplet below:

 

 

 

All dharam have four layers/stages- Shariat, Tariqat, Marfat and Hakikat . Sikhi have same structure in stages (similar stages are discussed in anand karaj lavan)

 

At shariat layer of sikhi one takes admission to sikhi by taking amrit, by taking the physical initiation khanda batta da amrit and receiving naam amrit is quite important as it symbolizes that now student/shish/sikh has a guru/teacher in our case our guru is sri guru granth sahib ji and saints/panj pyares are guides just available for help between path of journey between you and your guru.

 

It's pretty common to see these days people(especially youths are spending their precious time in doubts/pondering/debating-winning arguments over policy(rehat details etc) just accept it and move on to different stages i.e - if one in marfat stage, one can transcendent on some of rituals in shariat (rehat) or one can keep them without paying any attention to them so much so not even one second or breath is spent pondering over the rituals in shariat layer because focus is actually on the adhyatam now.

 

Rehat maryada as it is supposed to free an individual not attach back to dogma..again nothing wrong with rehat maryada be it bibek, chalisa itself but if caution is not paid in the mindset same thing could be turned into dogma by individual.

 

Guru maharaj has provided his hand to them to get them out from web of trap in the first-shariat layer of sikhi by giving this vak:

 

All though originally updesh given to sharia panthi muslim of that time but gurbani is meant for everyone including off course sikhs, its fits perfectably looking at the sad state of affairs among holier than thou amritdharis.

 

 

Ang- 1083

 

saraa sareeath lae ka(n)maavahu ||

Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

 

thareekath tharak khoj ttolaavahu ||

Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.

 

maarafath man maarahu abadhaalaa milahu hakeekath jith fir n maraa ||3||

Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3|

[Koi]

I just spoke to nirmale/taksali who studied gurmat vidya for 20 plus years. He advised 52 hakums are authentic work of sri guru gobind singh ji. However, 52 hakums contents that you read now its been exaggerated-strictfied, for lack better term -sharia fied, colored with abhramic notions as proper context were not shown. Upon question if bachans need to be read or followed like christian 10 commandments- Bhai sahib answer was no cannot be interperted or taken as christian commandments. These bachans or hakums were answer to questions of sikhs, some can be treated as basic guidelines not meant to be wrapped their head around it but meant to be read as basic beginner guidelines which were further divided into two categories- jatti- personal and kaumi- bachans are meant for sikh kaum.

The reason he believes 52 hakums of sri guru gobind singh ji 'written' now are bit exaggerated is because writer didn't know- actual context of the bachans as they were spoken out by sri guru gobind singh ji, some bachans were answer to sikh only meant for questioner state of mind/spiritual development.

He also mentioned- main essence of sikhi is Sri guru gobind singh ji bachan and sikhi- Jin Prem kiyo tin hi prabh paio ||

He provided two examples - different aspect/perspective of advises given in one from japji sahib and second one from sodar rehras sahib to prove emphasis on the context, see things in different aspects/perspectives (pakh).

My personal opinion is pretty much with bhai sahib ji is saying- i believe 52 hakums are authentic as well....i would see them from transcendental perspective mentioned in gurbani couplet below:

Was there a post a little while ago (possibly done by yourself) explaining these stages in more detail, and relating them to the 5 Khands?

Many thanks

[dalsingh101]

The language of the so called 52 Hukams is so 'modern'. they are FAKE for sure.

Where have you seen them?

[Guest]

Was there a post a little while ago (possibly done by yourself) explaining these stages in more detail, and relating them to the 5 Khands?

Many thanks

Here is thread for it:

Four ways of Faqiri.

1. Shariat - Rituals

2. Trikat - the way of worship for inner mind's purification

3. Marfat - means knowledge

4. Hakikat- means realization of supreme reality.

Here is the glimpse in Islam level of spirituality..Muslim holy saints divide the whole ascent into seven valleys-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

In Japuji Sahib five khands (Realms) have been described also on this subject. Those are 1. Dharam Khand (Realm of Righteousness) 2. Gian Khand (Realm Of Knowledge) 3. Saram Khand (Realm of Spiritual effort). 4. Karam Khand (Realm of Grace) 5. Sachkhand (realm of truth). Those valley or realms means samething its just they are name differently just like one god known as vahiguroo, allah, ishvar, ram and many countless names...!

Seven Phase of Divine Knowledge.

1. Good Wish- I am abide by the wishes of the great person. Should I ask him how ignorance is removed such a feeling is known as Good Wish.

2. Good Consideration: To adopt good qualities after having throught over his word and to renounce demerits.

3. Tanun Mansa: To Turn thoughts and instincts into subtle form through meditation and penances and remove Haume, ego.

4. Satvapati: To have gained knowledge about the soul to consider the world untrue, non living and house of pain. To Treat all visible like a dream and feel non-existing.

5. Asanshkit: As human while in "sukhupati" is insight the Sun of Bliss having no sensations for outer pleasure or pain. All doubts and apprehensions removed imaging about conduct over goes above the daily needs of food, drink, hunger, thrists and the quality of happiness and sorrow.

6. Padarth- Bhami- God is not separate from me. He recognises his roots orginal source. Forgets about body needs and actions whether or not you get food gets immaterial and he is content without eating any thing. No ripple in the realm of desire transcedents worldly behaviours are disciplines.

7. Turia Avastha (satvi bhumika/7th realm)- God is visible everywhere looks upon himself distinct and orginal to deeper spiritual knowledege. This is seventh phase of knowledge called Turia. Knowner of the Divine Being is always imbued with his own soul the pure being and lives in him.

"Gursikh is wise inside but innocent outside. Always attentive to Guru's word and listens to no other word. He visions true Guru but is deaf and dumb without congreagation and enjoys lovely cup of God's name in silence. He touchs the feet of holy men, humble like feet dust takes a dip in water sanstified with the feet, like a mumblee bee, loves god's lotus feet, lives in distinctly in the ocean of world. He is such a liberated alive and wears cloak of truth.

[dalsingh101]

First, the originals Hukams by Guru Gobind Singhji and an article about the Hukamname:

http://www.unp.me/f16/hukamnamas-by-guru-gobind-singh-ji-51645/

These hukamname (around 100 in total) of Guru sahiban, their family members or imp figures like Banda bahadur, were not about Rahit.

As the article says very clearly:

These Hukamnamas are orders or requests by the Gurus to the Sangat (congregation) or to individuals for financial or material support or invitations to meet the Guru, or to come armed with horse to meet some emergency or warnings to such dissenters like the masands.

The originals of the 52 Hukamname are nowhere to be found but the language uses is like we use TODAY!

http://www.info-sikh.com/Page52Hukams.html

According to one of the website which has published one-liner Hukams, they have been taken from 'Sikh virsa' magazine! looks like no one has seen the originals, really intriguing as SV seems to have pulled off a massive hoax.

Two books are very important to study 90 odd Hukamname (around 30 by tenth Guru sahib).

Guru Khalse de nishan te Hukamname by Shamsher Singh Ashok and

Hukamname by Ganda Singh

both of these well-researched books do not talk about 52 hukamname

52 hukams seem to fall more into rehat-nama territory than the individual hukam-namas in the above mentioned works. Given that, I wonder if Piara Singh Padam ever mentioned them?

[savinderpalsingh]

piara singh padam , in his book rehatnama's twisted the line of "bibi nu amrit chakaun wala singh tankhaiya "

to "bibi nu amrit na chakaun wala singh tankhaiya"

not saying he is bad just saying the twisted portion maybe have been modified by him or someone else

[dalsingh101]

piara singh padam , in his book rehatnama's twisted the line of "bibi nu amrit chakaun wala singh tankhaiya "

to "bibi nu amrit na chakaun wala singh tankhaiya"

not saying he is bad just saying the twisted portion maybe have been modified by him or someone else

There has been SO much of that going on in Sikh literature. I mean look at Bhai Vir SIngh's editing of Bhangu's Panth Prakash. It's exactly because of this type of stuff that some of us feel we have to be a bit careful of accepting stuff uncritically. It's not down to any 'lack of faith'; some of us just want to know the truth.

Even Dr. Ganda Singh (who I admire immensely), was (we have subsequently found) quite selective in his quotes from European sources in his book Early European accounts of the Sikhs.

From where I'm standing it looks like the British educated Sikhs of Singh Sabha got heavily influenced by the English approach to 'historiography' which basically turns historical narratives into a propaganda tool to project a certain idealised, sanitised image, rather than a brutal, honest study of the past - warts and all.

This is most apparent when you contrast a truly Sikh historical account like Rattan Singh Bhangu's with what followed post annexation; Bhangu has no problem writing about uncomfortable issues at all, whereas the British educated Sikhs often wrote them out of history.

[dalsingh101]

very well said.

the process of interpolation started in Gurus' times (Ram Rai, Dhirmal are believed to be two of many who distorted gurbani for their vested interests) and continues till date as many Sukhpreet Udhokes..are busy changing the complexion of history completely.

While B Veer Singh changed just a few stanzas. modern day aurangzebs have got one complete granth (gur Bilas Patshahi Chevin)

See, you have to be careful of what you say as a Hindu because people can pull out the counter criticism that Hindu society itself seems to completely dispense with even remotely attempting realistic historical narratives in preference to increasingly mythologicised, abstract, constantly evolving narratives that quickly lose any discernible relationship between real events (even if they do contain other types of wisdoms).

Edited December 11, 2014 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

my opinion about the so-called Hindu narrative is very clear - there is nothing (or very little) historical about it.

Ramayan, Mahabharata are part of the sanatani mythology written by learned poets. the same about Vedas. Ayodhya, mathura, kurushetra, Banaras etc exist undoubtedly but it would be very hard to say with certainty that the event explained so lucidly in the 'Hindu scriptures' have any link with the real world.

If someone tries to distort the main (mentioned above) scriptures, I would have problem with that person too.

Then you've maybe highlighted a distinction between Sikhs and Hindus in that there has been a trend to record historical events from the times of our Gurus?

And I'm not trying to use this for any factional/political agenda. Historical truths are an important thing for many Sikhs (like myself).

[Anandpuria]

I was able to locate 52 bachans in Principal Satbir Singh's book 'Aad Sikh te Aad Sakhian' published in 1987. It is the last sakhi of the book. He does not mention the original source. Somewhere else Satbir Singh is said to have said that he had seen these bachans in 'Gurdware Darshan' published by Giani Thakur Singh in 1915. I had a look at this book. However I was unable to find these in it. Principal Satbir Singh used to be a lecturer of history at Lyallpur Khalsa College Jallandhar during late fifties when I was a student there. I had seen him critisising teachers of history and literature for their political views that according to him they should have been deeply religious and pro-Akali being teachers in a Khalsa college. Teacher of literature criticised was Sant Singh Sekhon teaching Panjabi M A classes part-time. While in hostel I saw him beat a sweeper who was smoking going home after work. I wasn't much impressed by his scholarship, particularly originality in history as a subject compared with Ganda Singh who used to come occasionally to give a talk to history postgraduate students.

[dalsingh101]

compared with Ganda Singh who used to come occasionally to give a talk to history postgraduate students.

DId you ever personally see Prof. Ganda Singh yourself? What was he like? Do you remember what he spoke of in his postgraduate talks?

[Anandpuria]

I met him during the eighties in a seminar in Amritsar. He was very polite and reserved, and would give his opinion in very precise words. I really admired him for his objective approach. There wasn't any history postgraduate claas at Khalsa College Jallandhar but Pajabi MA. However, he was invited to give special talks to undergraduate students on Sikh history. I remember listening to him about Persian sources such as Tuzak-i-jahangiri on Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyredom. Satbir Singh had been telling us alwats about Chandu and Pirthi Chand.

[dalsingh101]

I remember listening to him about Persian sources such as Tuzak-i-jahangiri on Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyredom. Satbir Singh had been telling us alwats about Chandu and Pirthi Chand.

There is often a big problem with a lot of conservative apnay resisting the questioning of our own oral traditions in light of contemporary evidence. I know we have to be careful due to various agendas but often our people refuse to acknowledge or see things that are under their noses.

The way so many people on this very thread/forum jumped onto the 52 hukams without any serious reflection on its origins is VERY telling, and is a perfect example of this tendency.

While in hostel I saw him beat a sweeper who was smoking going home after work. I wasn't much impressed by his scholarship, particularly originality in history as a subject compared with Ganda Singh who used to come occasionally to give a talk to history postgraduate students.

Who gave the beating? Sant Singh Sekhon or Satbir Singh?

PS - You sound like a veteran Sikh history student; where do you see it going now?

Edited December 23, 2014 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

I was able to locate 52 bachans in Principal Satbir Singh's book 'Aad Sikh te Aad Sakhian' published in 1987. It is the last sakhi of the book. He does not mention the original source. Somewhere else Satbir Singh is said to have said that he had seen these bachans in 'Gurdware Darshan' published by Giani Thakur Singh in 1915. I had a look at this book. However I was unable to find these in it.

When I first read the 52 hukams, it seemed to me they had come from "Sau Sakhi" where Guru Ji has given instructions/hukams to sangat. I thought someone had gone through Sau Sakhi and listed them. The language seemed to be quite identical.

[dalsingh101]

When I first read the 52 hukams, it seemed to me they had come from "Sau Sakhi" where Guru Ji has given instructions/hukams to sangat. I thought someone had gone through Sau Sakhi and listed them. The language seemed to be quite identical.

The sau sakhis are a composite document themselves. Some of those sakhis are blatantly from parchian sewa das.

[chatanga1]

The sau sakhis are a composite document themselves. Some of those sakhis are blatantly from parchian sewa das.

I haven't seen that. Is it online anywhere?

[dalsingh101]

I haven't seen that. Is it online anywhere?

English translations only at the moment sadly:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/73649680/Sau-Sakhi-English-Translation-by-Attar-Singh-1873

https://www.scribd.com/doc/55483136/Episodes-From-Lives-of-the-Gurus-English-translation-of-Sewa-Das-s-parchian

[dalsingh101]

Chatanga:

You asked for the text of the Sau Sakhis. I stumbled on this Panjabi version as edited by Piara Singh Padam recently.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/252239556/Sau-Sakhi-Ed-Piara-Singh-Padam-Panjabi

[Guest Tirath Singh Nihang]

My research on 52 Hukanamas, At the time of Guru Gobhind Singh Ji due the persian influence the style of punjabi was different and different to that off 52 Hukanamas. Also some of the Hukanamas are taken from thakanama which is genuine. Also Guru Gobhind Singh Ji and all Gurus before wrote gurbani and letters in poetry form which the 52 Hukanamas seem to lack.

[Kuttabanda2]

On November 18, 2014 at 5:22 AM, dalsingh101 said:

 

And I guess you've never actually spent any time pondering the provenance of the so-called 52 hukums?

 

Just looks like a modern collection of random extracts to me.

There's a Puraatan Kharrda (manuscript) of the Hukams kept at Poanta Sahib. 

 

[JasperS]

On 8/11/2015 at 0:48 PM, Guest Tirath Singh Nihang said:

My research on 52 Hukanamas, At the time of Guru Gobhind Singh Ji due the persian influence the style of punjabi was different and different to that off 52 Hukanamas. Also some of the Hukanamas are taken from thakanama which is genuine. Also Guru Gobhind Singh Ji and all Gurus before wrote gurbani and letters in poetry form which the 52 Hukanamas seem to lack.

How exactly would one write a code of conduct (a list of rules) in poetry form? 

Writing in poetic form, is great for using allegory and metaphor to instil hidden meaning you wish to convey, but not everyone will get that deeper meaning. Which is why it would have made no sense to write a code of conduct or commands in poetry form, as you want as many people as possible to understand, and follow it! 

 

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

There's a Puraatan Kharrda (manuscript) of the Hukams kept at Poanta Sahib. 

 

Has it been digitized?

 

Bhul chuk maaf