Old Gurmukhi Scriptures

[Peter_Pan]

hello all,

I'd really appreciate if i could get some help in identifying some old handwritten scriptures,

these were handed down to me from my grandmother,

i had been an atheist all my life, but now I'm starting to accept god or some higher power and I've been studying various religions, including Sikhism.

and then these old scriptures came to my mind, these seem to be handwritten in Gurumukhi script, though i cant read or understand them, i'd really appreciate if anyone on this forum would help me in understanding what these books really are, their significance, historical & religious value

Thank you in advance

Peter//

Edited February 12, 2015 by Peter_Pan

[Singh123456777]

The first set of images is probably a gutka sahib. The second set which is in bad shape is a puratan janamsakhi of guru Nanak dev Ji. I have the same puratan janamsakhi as well.

Where in the world are you located?

[Peter_Pan]

Thank you sir for the information,

is there any way to find out at what time period it was written, or in whose handwriting ?

As of right now I'm in HongKong.

[dalsingh101]

Hiya Peter Pan

Sorry to hear about your loss. It's good to hear that you've found some solace in spirituality. Keep steady; one day at a time.

I noticed on one page of your gutka it appears to say the writer was someone called Kishan Singh?

It also says 'Waheguru Ji ki Fateh' which gives it a post Khalsa dating (i..e sometime after 1699 at least).

The first page seems to say Mohala 1 which would indicate it is Baba Nanak's composition?

I'm real busy right now but will try and have a closer look when I get a sec. You're on the right forum for this though!

Can you tell more about the manuscripts history if possible - maybe related to your own family history, locations, origins?

ਆਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ

Edited February 4, 2015 by dalsingh101

[Genie Singh]

Hi Peter, I have seen very similar manuscripts kept in the British Library under great care. You can go there register with proof of ID, wait an hour or a few days, it gets ordered in for you to see there with great care, there are rules in place but it's open to public access.

http://explore.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BLCONTENT%29&tab=local_tab&dstmp=1423072443255&srt=rank&ct=search&mode=Basic&vl(488279563UI0)=any&dum=true&tb=t&indx=1&vl(freeText0)=janam%20sakhi&vid=BLVU1&fn=search

There are many scans of similar manuscripts on Punjab digital library if you register you can view it, it's a got alot of gem of texts scanned.

http://www.panjabdigilib.org/

One thing about such manuscripts I don't understand yet is the binding in leather, today people prefer cardboard based/or plastic instead.

It's difficult to read, since it's using laarivar (the Punjabi is concatenated, apparently the spaces between words came in later on around the time of the printing press). And I am too used to typed writings rather than handwritten.

One of them (I will edit it to correct what I can make of it)- my reading skills need much work.

The last one is something else the style of writing from me speculating looks like a different writer, different year as well.

Looking at this one, my initial guess a gutka (prayer book) possibly extracted shabad (hymn) from Guru Granth Sahib - from my limited look at the type face being split away from it's concatenation and running a search I can't find it in a search of Guru Granth Sahib. http://www.srigranth.org/ So it maybe from a Janamsakhi

http://imgur.com/gXQKY1a

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

Ik Onkar sat gur prasad

There is one god known by the grace of the true Guru

ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ

raag ramkali gian

In the musical meter of Raag Ramakali ... Wisdom(http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Ramkali)

ਮਹਲਾ ||੧ ||

saraed mahala || 1 || pakhotam

... composed by the first House (Mehal) ||

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਸਵਾਥੀ

parmatma pooran beesvathee

God (the one above the soul) ... complete

s || adpurkh abeechalee

http://imgur.com/oSd7V48

tuheetaehinivaouooseesa |

1 || ouanachrkhatahosoh

achrjan | nihach

rasuashrhtataheekom

naan|2 || taheeekou

(NEXT PAGE)

manalgatidinsurtl 2

gavuai | apaaapabosa

avarnheeseesnivavhu

3|| Nanak das matkaht

haiagmanigmkeeseeakha|

http://i.imgur.com/QrhqzbD.jpg

sarodaiagiaanabicharit

baiprmpdpaei | 3364 ||

alikhtmakimnamighaliakhi

aabhutpeetkarikaealikha

eiaakisnnae || bholchukbkhstee

(next page)

akhrsodhiprrna | 95

simta | 1879 ||jaegoadi

narveea ramramjee

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ

VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH ||

bolavneesboohooi khalsae jeenooa

If that page is part of the same manuscript then it can't be from Guru Granth Sahib the phrase Khalsa is very rare in Guru Granth Sahib and the phrase "VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH " is not in Guru Granth Sahib it can be found in other texts post Guru Gobind Singhs time. There are some mistakes in what I've tried to get but the khalsa fateh can easily be seen.

Edited February 5, 2015 by JatherdarSahib

[Peter_Pan]

Hiya Peter Pan

Sorry to hear about your loss. It's good....-....family history, locations, origins?

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,

I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,

she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".

she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,

Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.

After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.

[Peter_Pan]

Hi Peter, I have seen very similar manuscripts kept in the British Library under great care. You can go there register with proof of ID, wait an hour or a few days, it gets ordered in for you to see there with great care......

.

.

.

.

.

.

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

Ik Onkar sat guru prasad

There is one god known by the grace of the true Guru

ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ

raag ramkali gian

In the musical meter of Raag Ramakali ... Wisdom(http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Ramkali)

saraed mahala || 1 || pakhotam

... composed by the first House (Mehal) ||

ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪੂਰਨਾ

pamata pooran abeesvathee

God (the one above the soul) ... complete

s || adpurkh abeechalee

Really appreciate your reply, I'll be sure to check the links you mentioned.

and thank you for the translation.

[Genie Singh]

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,

I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,

she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".

she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,

Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.

After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.

I wonder if this is a part of a manuscript which has been lost in time entirely or never before seen manuscript, if so it would be worth trying to digitize as much as you can, before such a beauty is lost to time. Perhaps it maybe the key to answering an authenticity study on certain texts still in circulation.

[dalsingh101]

I notice it says the following: I'm going to try a translation. People chip in. I'm sure I've got things wrong! lol

ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਨ ਆਨਾ।

The mind goes to you

ਤਾਹੀ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਅਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨ ਸੁਰਤ ਲਗਾਵੈ।

To you does the bee-mind attach its attention, night and day (I'm guessing the meaning of ਅਲ here)

ਅਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਅੱਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਵਹੁ।

You yourself make us forget, I bow my head to no other.

Plus we have a date!

ਸੰਮਤਾ Sumta (Indian calender) 1879. I have no idea what date that corresponds to in the modern system.

Do you recall the name of the 'misl' your grandma may have mentioned?

Edited February 5, 2015 by dalsingh101

[Peter_Pan]

I wonder if this is a part of a manuscript which has been lost in time entirely or never before seen manuscript, if so it would be worth trying to digitize as much as you can, before such a beauty is lost to time. Perhaps it maybe the key to answering an authenticity study on certain texts still in circulation.

Yeah, I'm working on scanning both the scriptures, almost half way through the first one, its taking some time as I have to be very careful, some pages are stuck together and almost falling apart.

I notice it says the following: I'm going to try a translation. People chip in. I'm sure I've got things wrong! lol

ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਨ ਆਨਾ।

The mind goes to you

ਤਾਹੀ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਅਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨ ਸੁਰਤ ਲਗਾਵੈ।

To you does the bee-mind attach its attention, night and day (I'm guessing the meaning of ਅਲ here)

ਅਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਅੱਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਵਹੁ।

You yourself make us forget, I bow my head to no other.

Plus we have a date!

ਸੰਮਤਾ Sumta (Indian calender) 1879. I have no idea what date that corresponds to in the modern system.

Do you recall the name of the 'misl' your grandma may have mentioned?

Thankyou sir for the translation, I'll soon upload the whole scripture in one or two days,

And I think 1879samat would make the year1821or1822 of the modern calendar.

And sir I have no idea of the name of the misl, if any she mentioned.

Maybe after I upload the full scripture, you might be able to understand it in a better way.

And I really want to thank everyone for trying to help with this project, it really means a lot.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Peter_Pan

[Genie Singh]

http://imgur.com/E86R2ts
This one mentions "Nanak" several times in the body of the text, Baba Nanak a couple. Baba Nanak speaking to a pandha (pandit) (guesses could be Pandit Hardyal or Pandit Gopal). Could be wrong...

so with the usual tons of mistakes this is what I can see at the moment (taking out the concatenation requires a good vocabulary before hand as well and some of the words aren't in use in modern Punjabi).

2nd line onwards

dhajee Nanak noprou | maitaegeebahuvsaevakarg|

ta padhae kahiaa bhlajeetb padha epteelikhidi

tee || ta Sri Guru Nanak ji eikadeenprad(?)jaedin

chupkarirhae | tapadhaekahia Nanak ji radaki

ounhee | ta Guru Nanak Ji kahiaa padh ji toopaji

aahaijrmainoopraavdahae | ta padhae kahiaa jeemaes

bhooakaechpariaah | smakharcholaekhapdeeaapree

sabhoaemainoaavdahai || ta Sri Guru Baba Nanak ji kahi [then Sri Guru Baba Nanak ji said]

aaeaenepreegaeifahaepoudaehainia || dharmraeidae

thadhajadahaieaehuprnabadhai | ta Sri Guru Ji ou

jobfeikasigiraagvichikahiaa ||

jalimohughasimsrkarimatikagafarisar

bhaouklmkaguchivlaekhagigrrpachlikhrvee

chag | likhrnmsal ? likhrlikhrantrnpacha

Edited February 5, 2015 by JatherdarSahib

[BhagatSingh]

I tried to find that in Guru Granth Sahib. I couldn't... hmm.

[Peter_Pan]

This is what I could upload at the moment,

i'll soon post more !!

[dalsingh101]

The words ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਰਣਜੀਤ (the slave of Nanak, Ranjeet) occur a couple of times at least, which might be a clue to the author?

Bhagat, I tried some searches too, you're right: whatever the text is, it doesn't appear to be from SGGS ji?

Edited February 6, 2015 by dalsingh101

[Genie Singh]

The words ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਰਣਜੀਤ (the slave of Nanak, Ranjeet) occur a couple of times at least, which might be a clue to the author?

Bhagat, I tried some searches too, you're right: whatever the text is, it doesn't appear to be from SGGS ji?

Which photo no./link you see that in?

The content of the second book seemed to look like a janamsakhi, the first book from it's date may be one, also I have seen an almost identical manuscript i.e. janamsakhi which had similar binding, size, handwriting style-size, shape, stroke, ink colour, similar pages kept in the British Library

Edited February 6, 2015 by JatherdarSahib

[BhagatSingh]

I am talking about the first book. I tried doing some random searches of certain phrases and they don't show up in Guru Granth Sahib.

I am using - srigranth.org

PS I see "Nanak Das Ranjit" in Scan10029.jpg

[Genie Singh]

I am talking about the first book. I tried doing some random searches of certain phrases and they don't show up in Guru Granth Sahib.

I am using - srigranth.org

PS I see "Nanak Das Ranjit" in Scan10029.jpg

http://www.sikhawareness.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-10552-0-42647600-1423234747.jpg

I wonder if it says something else after Nanak, since there is concatenation [...nanakdasranjit...] taking place "Nanak dasran jit" - but it's more likely ranjit, I wonder if ranjit here is a name, instrument, or the meaning behind it of victor of the battlefield.

nanakdasranjitabi

?charo | eiochrkrbhan

Is the yellow ink medieval tipex(correctional fluid) or damage that has been caused accidentally, from some reaction (ink, paper, time) or possibly intentional damage.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JatherdarSahib

[Peter_Pan]

http://www.sikhawareness.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-10552-0-42647600-1423234747.jpg

I wonder if it says something else after Nanak, since there is concatenation [...nanakdasranjit...] taking place "Nanak dasran jit"

nanakdasranjitabi

?charo | eiochrkrbhan

I am talking about the first book. I tried doing some random searches of certain phrases and they don't show up in Guru Granth Sahib.

I am using - srigranth.org

PS I see "Nanak Das Ranjit" in Scan10029.jpg

Which photo no./link you see that in?

The content of the second book seemed to look like a janamsakhi, the first book from it's date may be one, also I have seen an almost identical manuscript i.e. janamsakhi which had similar binding, size, handwriting style-size, shape, stroke, ink colour, similar pages kept in the British Library

The words ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਰਣਜੀਤ (the slave of Nanak, Ranjeet) occur a couple of times at least, which might be a clue to the author?

Bhagat, I tried some searches too, you're right: whatever the text is, it doesn't appear to be from SGGS ji?

Could these be somehow related to the King Ranjit singh, as someone mentioned here a name "kishan singh" and

Bishan Singh & Kishan singh were famous artists in the court of Ranjit singh, and I think it would fit well in the mentioned time frame of samat 1879,

but these are just speculations without proper proof !

[dalsingh101]

Interesting fragment from 10004:

The first sentence is a fragment, couldn't make the start out: Here's a quick bash at translation -

ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ।

The saints deliberate on fearing Oankar Oansorara(?)

Now it starts rhyming:

ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਉ ਲਿਟ ਘਰ ਅਪਨੇ ਆਵੋ।

The saints preach that we should come home and lie down

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਅਨੂਪ ਸਮਟ ਕਰਤ ਹਸ਼ਮਵੋ।

Brahm gathers rare laughter within hearts

ਚਾਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜੀਓ।

Is the mystery of the four vedas; the understanding of the gita

ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਲਖੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤੌ ਮੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੀਉ।

The slave of Nanak knows to himself; that's why I am your beloved

ਸਭ ਜੋਗਨ ਮੈ ਜੌਗ ਸਭ ਗਿਆਨਨ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨ।

The yogi of all yogas, the knower of all knowledge

ਸਭ ਸਿਧਨ ਕੋ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਤਤ ਸੋਰਨ ਕੋ ਧਿਆਨ।

The Siddh of all Siddhs, ????

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਗਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪ(?)

Could these be somehow related to the King Ranjit singh, as someone mentioned here a name "kishan singh" and
Bishan Singh & Kishan singh were famous artists in the court of Ranjit singh, and I think it would fit well in the mentioned time frame of samat 1879,
but these are just speculations without proper proof !

Interesting speculation: at the mo (to me), it appears to be some devotional work that isn't Gurbani. It's obviously heavily influenced by Sikh religious poetry. It seems to be some poets devotional composition.

Edited February 8, 2015 by dalsingh101

[Peter_Pan]

A few scans from the second one

[dalsingh101]

ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ।

The saints preach the love of Oankar Oansorara(?)

I did a major clanger here:

ਭਉ is fear, not love!

I edited the previous post to reflect.

[Peter_Pan]

http://www.sikhawareness.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-10552-0-42647600-1423234747.jpg

Is the yellow ink medieval tipex(correctional fluid) or damage that has been caused accidentally, from some reaction (ink, paper, time) or possibly intentional damage.

I think it was done afterwards cause in many other pages too some words are marked with that yellow ink and corrections are added to those words.

[jaikaara]

It is bhav not bhay ..so it would not mean fear ..

I did a major clanger here:

ਭਉ is fear, not love!

I edited the previous post to reflect.

[dalsingh101]

It is bhav not bhay ..so it would not mean fear ..

So why don't you try and offer a translation then?

Addition: I just checked the original text again - from what I can see there is no way that isn't

ਭਉ

How do you make it bhav????

I've attached the page and underlined the word, incase you're looking at something else?

Edited February 9, 2015 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Another attempt at the first sentence, I think I figured out the words in the beginning bit:

ਸੋ ਅਸਾ ਸੋ ਸੋਹੰ ਭਇਓ ਸੋਹੰ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰ ਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ।

That is me, he is I that happened, that which is I is Oankar , Oansorara, the sadhus deliberate on fearing [that one].

Peter Pan: You've got a fascinating manuscript here. It's obviously a Sikh poets devotional work and the vocab shows intimate knowledge of Sikh scriptures. For instance this bit here:

ਸਭ ਜੋਗਨ ਮੈ ਜੌਗ ਸਭ ਗਿਆਨਨ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨ।

The yogi of all yogas, the knower of all knowledge

ਸਭ ਸਿਧਨ ਕੋ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਤਤ ਸੋਰਨ ਕੋ ਧਿਆਨ।

The Siddh of all Siddhs, ????

Strongly resembles Jaap Sahib from the Dasam Granth.

PS - That second doc looks like a Janam Sakhi and the first sakhi is one concerning Kalu Mehta's efforts to have his son (the young Baba Nanak) educated.

Edited February 9, 2015 by dalsingh101