Sikh Guru's And Their Marriage Relationship

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

People . First of all dont use gurus as examples to justify ur own selfish bodily needs and cravings.

Truthseeker you are basically saying Guru Gobind Singh Ji seeked bodily pleasure? You need to understand what a Guru is.

What you are saying is very offensive.

Guru is beyond the body. He is sargun form of Nirankar.

If he can create billions of galaxies in a blink of eye do you think it is impossible for Guru to create life in a mothers womb without engaging in vishe vikaar? Shame on those who think that gurus were involved in sex.

Baba Nand Singh said Guru Nanak didnt engage in vishe vikar. And those who say so are damned.

May their tongues be cursed who compare gurus to human beings.

People. No one is asking you to stop having sex. Do whatever you want. Make babies and have pleasure. But dont say that my father Guru wanted bodily pleasure thus had many wives. And also guru didnt have sex. They have the power to do anything.

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

The bottomline is that lesser the desires you have more closer you are to your goal as per santren daya singh ji.

The desires could be millions and in many forms.

Only Guru ji can eradicate our desires. We on our own cannot do anything.

As for sex in marriage or how to use it a sikh couple should have common sense. He she should act as per guidance from guru inside. Some may need more others less. This is case per case basis and acc. to their spiritual state. Just dont force a same rule on every couple. Moderation and respect for each others is the key i believe.

Every sikh gets guidance from guru within. Its the call of the atma. Just follow it. You know what it tells you. Your mind will ignore it but you often know what is really needed. Just follow that and you are golden

truthseeker546 · April 10, 2015

@Ragmaala

Firstly I'd like to apologise if I caused offence, this wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to learn more about Sikhism.

Now you said the Gurus never had sex. This is news to me, is this a orthodox sikh view? This is the first I'm hearing of it. Do Sikhs believe all 10 gurus were born without sexual intercourse? so all were miraculous conceptions similar to Jesus?

If this is true then how do you explain charitropakhyan?

If this topic is a bit sensitive for sikhs then I won't ask any further questions on it, I'm just trying to understand Sikh beliefs?

Thanks

paapiman · April 10, 2015

On 4/9/2015 at 11:49 PM, Ragmaala said:

People . First of all dont use gurus as examples to justify ur own selfish bodily needs and cravings.

Truthseeker you are basically saying Guru Gobind Singh Ji seeked bodily pleasure? You need to understand what a Guru is.

What you are saying is very offensive.

Guru is beyond the body. He is sargun form of Nirankar.

If he can create billions of galaxies in a blink of eye do you think it is impossible for Guru to create life in a mothers womb without engaging in vishe vikaar? Shame on those who think that gurus were involved in sex.

Baba Nand Singh said Guru Nanak didnt engage in vishe vikar. And those who say so are damned.

May their tongues be cursed who compare gurus to human beings.

People. No one is asking you to stop having sex. Do whatever you want. Make babies and have pleasure. But dont say that my father Guru wanted bodily pleasure thus had many wives. And also guru didnt have sex. They have the power to do anything.

Good points Singh Sahib.

Please have a look at the topic below.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

CdnSikhGirl · April 10, 2015

I am interested in this now as well, as it's the first time I have heard of it!

Since the Gurus had progeny, some of who were successuve Gurus, were these births all immaculate conceptions? Where is this written??

Why did the Gurus have wives then if the women could conceive in the same manner as Christian Mary - ie Immaculate conception without a male? I have always read that the Gurus all taught against asceticism and taught that the life of householder was important, and that they embodied that ideal by living it themselves. (Lead by example)

Where can I read more about them all being immaculate conceptions?

@Ragmaala

Firstly I'd like to apologise if I caused offence, this wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to learn more about Sikhism.

Now you said the Gurus never had sex. This is news to me, is this a orthodox sikh view? This is the first I'm hearing of it. Do Sikhs believe all 10 gurus were born without sexual intercourse? so all were miraculous conceptions similar to Jesus?

If this is true then how do you explain charitropakhyan?

If this topic is a bit sensitive for sikhs then I won't ask any further questions on it, I'm just trying to understand Sikh beliefs?

Thanks

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

@truthseeker, satkirin

When Mata Sulakhni Ji ( wife of Guru Nanak) asked Guru Nanak for the blessing of sons, she was blessed with two cloves as a blessing. The prashad/blessing in the form of cloves lead to birth of Sri Chand Ji and Lakhmi Chand Ji. You may find this in the katha of Suraj Prakash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh Ji.

There are many concepts in Sikhi which are very subtle and not apparent at first. This understanding only comes after the company of Saints, Mahapurakhs and spiritually elevated beings through their physical presence, books, biographies, discourses or a personal experience.

Nirankar/God took the sargun form of Guru Nanak and 9 Gurus. The idea was to lead by example. They led a householders life to teach us. But that does not mean that Guru operates the same way as we do. We simply cannot fathom the workings of our Guru whether he hunted, had more than one wife, sacrificed himself for Truth, sat in a basement for 28 years etc etc.

Gurbani teaches us to follow the teachings of the Guru , but not to emulate Guru. We simply cannot copy our Guru. Guru operates in mysterious ways beyond our understanding. Gur Kaheya so kaar kamavo Gur ki karni kahe dhavo.

When Guru Nanak disappeared there was no physical body left, Same thing happened when Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji disappeared, no physical bodies were found. Same things happened when sons of Guru Gobind Singh were martyred, their bodies simply disappeared for a while. So what can we say about the physical body of a Guru ?

If we cannot understand the physicality of Guru, how can we compare Guru to a normal human being and say that he had a body, enjoyed bodily pleasure and engaged to have kids. This sentiment is shared by all the highly elevated spiritual beings like Baba Nand Singh Ji etc etc and many other Gursikhs. You might not find it written in many books.

Gurbani also says that liberated ones do not come into the cycle of birth and death.

The birth of a elevated spiritual being is different than the rest of humans. This applies to great saints.

The body of child is created in womb for 9 months, everything is happening like a normal human baby. When the baby is delivered, the atma/soul/jeev/spiritual being enters the body at that time. That already liberated being does not have to spend 9 months in the womb.

And Guru is not even born, nor does he go anywhere. He has been present since the beginning, in the present and for the future. Satguru mera sada sada na aave na jaave. Guru is ever present , he neither comes nor goes.

These sentiments are not my own personal or indvidual opinions or feelings. But this is a common sentiment shared by many saint traditions like Nanaksar Samparda, Damadami Taksal, Rara Sahib etc etc.

I do not have links for you where you can read up on such things, but maybe other posters may have sources that provide a written evidence.

CdnSikhGirl · April 10, 2015

But then, physically anyway, it means that the Gurus sons were not really (genetically) their sons? Just like Jesus was not the (genetic) son of Joseph. But they were still referred to as 'sons' of the Gurus. Since some of these 'sons' become known as successive Gurus, and were obviously 'born' to the wives of previous Gurus... I am having trouble understanding this... pls forgive me. Do you mean that the child born was soulless and then after birth the light of the Guru entered (hence avoiding having to be born)?

Or do you mean something else? Like the child was beamed out or something? Or were the wives never pregnant to begin with and the babies just appeared? I am only trying to understand what you are saying because I have never read this anywhere...

Also, I thought the soul of a child is present IN the womb? (why abortion is wrong) There are those who have distinct memories when regressed, of being in the womb. Babies who's Mothers listen to music etc. those children are actually affected by that, some even remembering (or at least feeling some connection) to the songs played later in life.

If you come straight down to it... there really only is ONE consciousness anyway. Akal Purakh is the whole - and all the parts of the whole. The difference is that we have forgotten that connection to who we really are while the Gurus knew the entire truth. The 'doer', the 'experiencer' in all of us is one and the same. We are just experiencing through highly fragmented viewpoints, each separate from one another but all are the same. (Ang 736: The director stages the play, and plays the parts of all the characters, but when the play ends, and the costumes are removed, there is only ONE - there only ever was ONE) We have just forgotten we are in the play.... The Gurus contained that same light (they spoke of that same light within ALL of us) only, in them there was no veil... there was no forgotten identity. This higher state of awareness they possessed, they tried to teach us that we too can experience eventually (after many lifetimes). They told us about dasam dwar and how to connect through naam simran, seva... I remember reading where Guru Nanak also made the statement that he was a mere servant of God.

So were the Gurus highly enlightened humans? Were they God fully incarnate (aren't we taught that God does not take form?), what then of the statements that the same divine light is in everyone and that there is only ONE universal consciousness (God) and that Ego (personal identity) is false? If this world is illusion, then does anyone TRULY take birth and death or is that too an illusion? (In Gurbani it mentions "conquering death while still alive"... how better can you conquer death, than to realize it's false and that you are just waking up from another dream?)

I have always imagined it as a dream... this world is the dream of the Creator. And we are all dream characters, all within God's dream, and hence... we are all really the Creator. Just like when we dream at night, ALL of the characters in our dream are really US, even if we experience through the eyes of only one at a time. In fact, every blade of grass, every rock etc are us as well. Now, imagine you become aware in your dream... that you areactually dreaming. You remember you are the dreamer... without any doubts, you know for sure the falseness of the dream world. Some people can do this, and they take control of the dream. There is no more fear because they know they control all of it and that it is false and they will eventually wake up. Now back to this reality... we are the little dreamers in this bigger dream. What if we woke up while still in the dream?? This is how I have always thought about it especially reading the descriptions in Gurbani.

Anyway, I got a bit off topic... but it all centers around the Guru's taking birth. Please don't think I am challenging anything, it's just how I have been told, and how I have interpreted things from reading SGGSJ.

Gur Fateh

truthseeker546 · April 10, 2015

@Ragmaala

Thanks for the reply. Is this a view held by all sikhs, as Satkirin Kaur points out not all Sikhs are aware of this view.

This radically changes my view of how Sikhs view their Gurus. I'd like to see some scriptural proof of what you are saying please.

So some more questions, if the Gurus like you suggest were born without male participation, so all their wives of the Gurus and indeed the Gurus themselves were all virgins?

If the births were all divinely ordained, then why did the Gurus have more then one child, and some more then one wife?

Guru Nanak didn't pass on the Guruship to his sons, (which is why Siri Chand started his own version of Sikhism - (Udaisi sikhs come from this) - does this mean children born with divine favour were still not as good as someone born normally ie Bhai lena.

Also Guru Ram Das had 2 children, Arjun and Prithi Chand. Not being chosen for the Guruship, Prithi Chand tried to poison the 6th Guru Hargobind, Guru Arjuns only child. How did he have such a character if he was born with divine light? He also caused a lot of other problems which I won't go into.

Furthermore Guru Har Rai had also 2 sons, Ram Rai and Har Krishan. Ram rai joined the Mughals and according to some sources had the 9th Guru Tegh Bahadur killed ( by convincing Aurengzeb ). Also to briefly mention Guru Tegh Bahadur nephew Dhir Mall, who had problems with him and the 10th Guru.

In short there was lots of infighting, corruption with the masnad system , etc. If all these children of the Gurus were born with Gods grace, then how do you explain their conduct, behaviour.

And why did the Guru's have numerous children and wives if they only needed to pass on Guruship to one male?

Also in the case of the 8th Guru, Har Krishan. who became a Guru at 5 and died at 7 from smallpox. How do explain this if all the Guru's were divinely convinced?

Thanks for your reply.

Edited April 10, 2015 by truthseeker546

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

But then, physically anyway, it means that the Gurus sons were not really (genetically) their sons?

We cannot understand the physicality of Guru. We cannot comment on genetics here. We do not know how a blessing leads to conception but it happens as per the great saints.

Do you mean that the child born was soulless and then after birth the light of the Guru entered (hence avoiding having to be born)? Or do you mean something else? Like the child was beamed out or something? Or were the wives never pregnant to begin with and the babies just appeared?

As for the Guru, all I know is Satgur Nanak Pragteya. Satgur Nanak manifests. I do not know if there was a baby previously in the womb or the baby appeared out of thin air. Only Guru knows. But Guru is neither born nor he dies.

As for the highly elevated spiritual beings, Saints say that a mass develops in the womb like a normal pregnancy, and then the Saint enters that mass after it is delivered.

Also, I thought the soul of a child is present IN the womb?

yes that is the case for a normal human being like me and yourself. But for karak brahmgianis who are sent to earth for a purpose do not have to go through the same process as you and me, since they are already liberated ones, if they had to spend time in the womb that would defy the concept of liberation.

So were the Gurus highly enlightened humans? Were they God fully incarnate (aren't we taught that God does not take form?)

I think there are many discussions of Sargun aspect on this forum.

Everyone interprets Guru in their own way. The more devotion, shardha and love you have, the more your utensil will be filled accordingly. It all depends on how much sweetness you want to attain.

Some called Guru Nanak a normal human being.

Some called Guru Nanak a saint.

And few enlightened ones realized that Guru Nanak is Nirankar himself.

I do not know if there is a link to it, but you should read up on how and why Guru Nanak manifested. The summarised version is that there were 7 saints who did intense tapasya at present day harmandir sahib, and upon having darshan of Nirankar asked for boons which led God to take form of Guru Nanak. Also , the prayers of earth to be blessed by the Sargun saroop of Nirankar, as it was feeling burden during the dark ages of Kalyug. As well as bringin Dhur Ki Bani to us.

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

Thanks for the reply. Is this a view held by all sikhs, as Satkirin Kaur points out not all Sikhs are aware of this view.
This radically changes my view of how Sikhs view their Gurus. I'd like to see some scriptural proof of what you are saying please.

Yes not all Sikhs are aware of this view. I am not sure. But there is a good amount of traditions that consider Guru Nanak as a literal manifestation of God. The Nanaksar tradition especially highly emphasizes that Guru Nanak is God. And a great leader from Nanaksar tradition, Baba Ishar Singh Ji , in his tapes mentions that Nirgun is Darkness, and cannot impart salvation. Only , the Sargun aspect of God, Guru Nanak will liberate you.

If you research SGGS, go to the writing by the Bhatt, there you will find many references mentioning like Aap Narayan Kala Dhar Jag Meh Parveryo meaning God Himself took the form of Guru Nanak.

My friend, Sikhish is a spectrum with great shades and colors, many are at different levels of learning and understanding, it is vast. Gurbani has instructions for people who are at different levels. That is why, what may make sense to one person may not appply to another. As you get deeper and deeper, subtler concepts unfold.

Some of these concepts will not make sense when you researching from a historical perspective of religions. These ideas and understandings are usually passed down through oral tradition, and many things about Sikhi are learnt through the company of elevated spiritual beings.

Ragmaala · April 10, 2015

So some more questions, if the Gurus like you suggest were born without male participation, so all their wives of the Gurus and indeed the Gurus themselves were all virgins?

Guru is God. He is not physical like us. Normal rules do not apply.

If the births were all divinely ordained, then why did the Gurus have more then one child, and some more then one wife?

This is called leela, the play of God. Only God knows why.

Guru Nanak didn't pass on the Guruship to his sons, (which is why Siri Chand started his own version of Sikhism - (Udaisi sikhs come from this) - does this mean children born with divine favour were still not as good as someone born normally ie Bhai lena.

It means that there is not personal favors in Sikhi. Only those who follow the hukam of Guru attain Gurus happiness.

Also Guru Ram Das had 2 children, Arjun and Prithi Chand. Not being chosen for the Guruship, Prithi Chand tried to poison the 6th Guru Hargobind, Guru Arjuns only child. How did he have such a character if he was born with divine light? He also caused a lot of other problems which I won't go into.

We all have divine light, why are we all corrupt. Again this is Gods leela or play, to create Dram or to impart teachings.

Furthermore Guru Har Rai had also 2 sons, Ram Rai and Har Krishan. Ram rai joined the Mughals and according to some sources had the 9th Guru Tegh Bahadur killed ( by convincing Aurengzeb ). Also to briefly mention Guru Tegh Bahadur nephew Dhir Mall, who had problems with him and the 10th Guru.

In short there was lots of infighting, corruption with the masnad system , etc. If all these children of the Gurus were born with Gods grace, then how do you explain their conduct, behaviour.

Again, it shows how jealousy can take hold of the best of people even when they were born in Gurus home. Only with Gurus grace and following his hukam, one can conquer negative feelings.

And why did the Guru's have numerous children and wives if they only needed to pass on Guruship to one male?

Our human logic cannot understand the play or leela.

Also in the case of the 8th Guru, Har Krishan. who became a Guru at 5 and died at 7 from smallpox. How do explain this if all the Guru's were divinely convinced?

Again in Sikhi, a Sikh cannot understand why his Guru did this or that. He is to follow the instructions of Guru without questioning them. In order to succeed in Sikhi, a Sikh is to totally surrender mentally, physicall and emotionally to Guru. It is a play of total submissiveness.

paapiman · April 11, 2015

Only an ignorant person can think that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak dev jee Maharaaj procreated as humans and animals do.

Khalsa jee, do not try to apply ordinary human/animals activities to the Almighty. A person like me cannot even fathom the level of a Saint. Here we have Satguru jee who converted dacoits, perverts, robbers, murderers into saints. You guys can imagine the difference.

ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥

गुरि कहिआ सा कार कमावहु ॥

gur kahi-aa saa kaar kamaavahu.

Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਧਾਵਹੁ ॥

गुर की करणी काहे धावहु ॥

gur kee karnee kaahay Dhaavahu.

Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kaa Fateh

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

OK I thought joining this forum would help me better understand Sikhism, however I've ended up more confused.

Whenever I ask a logical question on God's oneness and his 24 forms, or reincarnation, or the Guru's being born without sexual intercourse, the only answer I get is, we can't logically understand this, you have to submit. This is the same answer EVERY religion gives when you question them. I do understand that questions on Gods essence can be difficult to understand, but still its not a get out card for every problem. Simply say Leela of God, who knows.

The whole point of human beings having intellect is so that we can rationally understand God also. Not entirely but at least know what he defiantly is and isn't. Seeking the truth is not simply bowing down to what you were told as children to be true, its searching and knowing the truth.

Also it's becoming apartment to me is a lot of Sikh theology was not dealt with by the Gurus themselves. or the main scholars that came after/around the 10 Guru (Bhai Gurdas etc) - so now we have individual interpretations without scriptural backing. Some people obviously taking "inspiration" from other faith to try and explain certain concepts within Sikhism, which obviously doesn't work.

But being far, and not to be offensive to anyone - I am asking questions on a public forum, I don't know how well people are versed in Sikhism. Maybe I should take the time to go into the nearest Gudwara and ask the main person there.

Anyway at least I have some interesting answers back. Thanks.

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

@ Ragmaala

Guru is God. He is not physical like us. Normal rules do not apply

Really ? Is this belief held by all Sikhs or only certain sects? Are all 10 Gurus God? Then how do you explain their deaths, being overpowered, or being sick etc? (8th Guru)

Any proof from the texts themselves on this?

Also for the Namdharis (if there are any on this forum), do they believe this also? If so does that mean the Gurus that came after Guru Ghobin Singh are divine also? Is the current living Guru also seen as God?

This is called leela, the play of God. Only God knows why.

Weak argument - but fair enough if you don't know.

It means that there is not personal favors in Sikhi. Only those who follow the hukam of Guru attain Gurus happiness.

This answer would make some sense, IF you didn't believe that the guru's produced immaculate births from all their children. which should mean their children are not normal, they have a purer light and connection to God then say ordinary people. Also saying there are no favours in Sikki was only true at the beginning of Sikhism, after the 3rd Guru it became pretty much a family affair, hence the infighting. But that's a different topic I won't go into here.

We all have divine light, why are we all corrupt. Again this is Gods leela or play, to create Dram or to impart teachings.

OK - but would you say that light is the same as the children of the Guru's ? especially if you believe that the Guru's were God, then that would make their children, "the children of God. right? How can they be corrupt? surely you don't believe the children of the Guru's are exactly the same as ordinary people?

Again, it shows how jealousy can take hold of the best of people even when they were born in Gurus home. Only with Gurus grace and following his hukam, one can conquer negative feelings.

refer to above answer - what is the Sikh belief on the children of the Gurus then, if the Gurus were themselves God? with textual proof please.

Again in Sikhi, a Sikh cannot understand why his Guru did this or that. He is to follow the instructions of Guru without questioning them. In order to succeed in Sikhi, a Sikh is to totally surrender mentally, physicall and emotionally to Guru. It is a play of total submissiveness.

OK - not an answer but if you don't know fair enough. On a slightly different angle, if the Gurus were God, they how can this 8th Guru die of smallpox? something modern medicine can cure? Obviously his death caused a lot of problems, as so many from the family of the Guru's claimed guruship after. But it's interesting Teg Bahadur was already living at the time of the 8th Guru. so does that mean God was in 2 bodies at the same time ? (if you believe that the Guru's were God)

This really doesn't make any sense to me.but thanks for replying anyway.

Ragmaala · April 11, 2015

Dear truthseeker,

Gurus acted like humans to teach humans. They stayed humble and did not shown miracles until it was really needed. But at the same time anything is possible for Guru. So they went through the normal processes like a normal human being does whether it is family disputes or sickness etc. For Guru Harkrishan JI, chicken pox was just an excuse to disappear from this earth.

Also remember God and Guru are not limited in any way, they can be present in many forms at different times.

I can go on and on , and give you many answers using logic or intellect. But that will not help you at all.

What you really need is to sit down , go inwards and get an intuitive understanding. Intellect alone is not enough.

Also research more on the relation between Guru & disciple in various other traditions. It will help you.

When I was younger I thought I had answer to everything, I was certain about many things in life. But as years went along I only realized how little I knew and how little I will know. And then an intuitive understanding comes about what is important and where to focus the energies alone.

Ragmaala · April 11, 2015

Things only make sense when you get an intuitive understanding.That will only happen when you shut off your physical senses and go inwards.

Every Sikh you meet will have a different understanding according to where they are at in their journey.

You will never get any definite, or black and white answers in Life.

truthseeker546 · April 11, 2015

@ Ragmaala

Thanks brother. I am quit logically minded. I'm studying comparative theology so I guess I have to be logical. I ask questions that challenge certain concepts or beliefs to try and get a better understanding. I'm just trained like this. Anyone who has studied theology/philosophy in the west will be familiar with this.

I do this on all religions, on their own forums - with concepts I'm not sure about - not just Sikhism. It's just Sikhism was on my lists of religions I needed to know more about. (Got a few left)

Your right, I don't think you'll be able to answer my questions logically. I'm thinking of maybe to disconnecting from this account and just read some more books by Sikh academics.

You said for example: Guru Har Krishan needed an excuse to leave this world. That only raises more questions in my head. Why would a Guru or God in Guru form, need to come into the body of a 5 year old child only to "need an excuse" to leave 2 years later (via smallpox) in order only to come again as another Guru. Why not just go to Guru Teg Bahadur to begin with.

You'll obviously say we can't know this logically, this is either Leela from God or something we cannot understand. which I respect.

As a non Sikh I don't believe in the Guru's being divine, or inspired by God. Although I admire the message from Guru Gobin Singh very much. I see this historically and logically as maybe political decisions in which the Gurus were chosen, hence some of the internal problems that arose then and after within Sikhism.

I was simply trying to understand how Sikhs themselves view things about the Gurus and and their belief in God. This thread however opened something new for me. Immaculate births of the Guru's - never heard of that before. or then the questions that raises on their children. Still would like to have some scriptural proof if there is any, if I cite this in an essay then I can't say MrSingh101 from Sikh-awareness said so.

Thanks anyway brother, much appreciated.

paapiman · April 11, 2015

@ Ragmaala

Thanks brother. I am quit logically minded. I'm studying comparative theology so I guess I have to be logical. I ask questions that challenge certain concepts or beliefs to try and get a better understanding. I'm just trained like this. Anyone who has studied theology/philosophy in the west will be familiar with this.

I do this on all religions, on their own forums - with concepts I'm not sure about - not just Sikhism. It's just Sikhism was on my lists of religions I needed to know more about. (Got a few left)

Your right, I don't think you'll be able to answer my questions logically. I'm thinking of maybe to disconnecting from this account and just read some more books by Sikh academics.

You said for example: Guru Har Krishan needed an excuse to leave this world. That only raises more questions in my head. Why would a Guru or God in Guru form, need to come into the body of a 5 year old child only to "need an excuse" to leave 2 years later (via smallpox) in order only to come again as another Guru. Why not just go to Guru Teg Bahadur to begin with.

You'll obviously say we can't know this logically, this is either Leela from God or something we cannot understand. which I respect.

As a non Sikh I don't believe in the Guru's being divine, or inspired by God. Although I admire the message from Guru Gobin Singh very much. I see this historically and logically as maybe political decisions in which the Gurus were chosen, hence some of the internal problems that arose then and after within Sikhism.

I was simply trying to understand how Sikhs themselves view things about the Gurus and and their belief in God. This thread however opened something new for me. Immaculate births of the Guru's - never heard of that before. or then the questions that raises on their children. Still would like to have some scriptural proof if there is any, if I cite this in an essay then I can't say MrSingh101 from Sikh-awareness said so.

Thanks anyway brother, much appreciated.

Bro, one cannot explain all concepts in religion by logical or scientific reasoning. Modern technology such as cell phones, computers, cloning, Wi-Fi, etc would have been considered, most likely as myths by even the most intelligent/scientific people of the 16th or 17th century. That is why as Sikhs, we blindly follow our Satgurus as they are the incarnations of GOD.

I think we should stay on the topic. Some of the answers to your questions will be in a different post.

Take care

paapiman · April 11, 2015

@Ragmaala

Firstly I'd like to apologise if I caused offence, this wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to learn more about Sikhism.

Now you said the Gurus never had sex. This is news to me, is this a orthodox sikh view? This is the first I'm hearing of it. Do Sikhs believe all 10 gurus were born without sexual intercourse? so all were miraculous conceptions similar to Jesus?

If this is true then how do you explain charitropakhyan?

If this topic is a bit sensitive for sikhs then I won't ask any further questions on it, I'm just trying to understand Sikh beliefs?

Thanks

Our Satgurus did not indulge in sexual pleasures as enjoyed by men and animals. If modern science can invent cloning procedure, why cannot GOD do miraculous births? This is the orthodox Sikh belief.

Sri Charitropakhiyan Sahib is meant for Sikhs/non-Sikhs to understand the trickery of human mind. Gurbani is meant to be applied to normal humans like us, not to God himself. God brought Gurbani to this world to save us. Religious/spiritual/human rules do NOT apply to God.

As a non-Sikh, I guess who can ask as many questions as you want. But just remember bro, some people on this forum consider Lord Guru Nanak as a parent. As you wouldn't like anyone to ask detailed private questions about your parent's life, similarly you should be mindful. Rest is up to you.

Take care

April 11, 2015

I am not sure if our beloved SatGuru's have intercourse with their wive or not. If they did, I won't be surprised, if they didn't i won't be surprised either- as they came in this earth for specific task. We cannot see/judge our SatGuru's life with our conditioned mind, conceptual abstract belief system doctrine, certain way of pattern lifestyle etc. Our Satguru's nature can be only understood (via anubhav parkash-intuitive spontaneous divine knowledge) after deeply contemplating/meditating on Guru's word:

In marriage, sexual intercourse for enlightened pure god- its not matter of act but rather matter of pure cognitive enlightened perception pure realization of Ikoankar.

Here sri guru gobind singh ji is talking about things which may even seem to some very controversial just by hearing the name, declaring there is no duality as such at all- its all god, all in god, god in all:

In gurbani, at deeper stages, there is no duality left as such, vaheguroo is taking both roles and himself playing in his play:

Namo Jog Jogi || Namo Bhog Bhogi ||

Jogi Andar Jogia Tu Bhogi Andar Bhogia ||

Tap Mein Tapasvi Grihast Mein Bhogi ||

ਅਖਿਲ ਜੋਗੇ ॥ ਅਚਲ ਭੋਗੇ ॥੭੪॥

अखिल जोगे ॥ अचल भोगे ॥७४॥

Thou art united with all, Thou art their permanent Enjoyer.74.

ਕਹੂੰ ਗੀਤ ਕੇ ਗਵੱਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਨ ਕੇ ਬਜੱਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ੍ਰਿਤ ਕੇ ਨਚੱਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਰ ਕੋ ਅਕਾਰ ਹੋ ॥

कहूं गीत के गव्या कहूं बेन के बज्या कहूं न्रित के नच्या कहूं नर को अकार हो ॥

O Lord! Somewhere Thou art singer of song somewhere Thou art player of flute, somewhere Thou art a dancer and somewhere in the form of a man.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਦ ਬਾਨੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਕੋਕ ਕੀ ਕਹਾਨੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਨੀ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਾਰ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਹੋ ॥

कहूं बेद बानी कहूं कोक की कहानी कहूं राजा कहूं रानी कहूं नार के प्रकार हो ॥

Somewhere Thou art the vedic hymns and somewhere the story of the elucidator of the mystery of love; somewhere Thou art Thyself the king, the queen and also various types of woman.

ਕਹੂੰ ਬੇਨ ਕੇ ਬਜਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਧੇਨ ਕੇ ਚਰਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਲਾਖਨ ਲਵਯਾ ਕਹੂੰ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁਮਾਰ ਹੋ ॥

कहूं बेन के बजया कहूं धेन के चरया कहूं लाखन लवया कहूं सुंदर कुमार हो ॥

Somewhere Thou art the player of flute, somewhere the grazier of cows and somewhere Thou art the beautiful youth, enticer of lakhs (of lovely maids.)

ਸੁਧਤਾ ਕੀ ਸਾਨ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਹਾ ਦਾਨ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਨ੍ਰਿਦੋਖੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੋ ॥੮॥੧੮॥

सुधता की सान हो कि संतन के प्रान हो कि दाता महा दान हो कि न्रिदोखी निरंकार हो ॥८॥१८॥

Somewhere Thou art the splendour of Purity, the life of the saints, the Donor of great charities and the immaculate Formless Lord. 8.18