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Masand Story Is Been Used As Precedence For Panthic Policiing


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There is new disturbing trend among many sikh youths, they are using previous examples of Guru sahib undisputed event of Guru sahib burning masand alive as some sort of precedence after they gone astray to radicalize new set of youths.

To draw some parallelism with that with other communities- christian history of some stories of their leaders burning witch alive,many muslims fanatics are using same using previous examples from their text hadiths as precedence to push for islamic justice.

Lets talk deeply about this subject.

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I have posted this in the past, but i will post again- it was based on those times, circumstances/level of corruption/individuals karams but that incident was never intended or meant for turning into some sort of sharia law like we see in muslim countries such as saudi arabia, iran etc.

Also another thing i have heard from senior gurmukhs...its common belief that if someone was killed by guru/hari avtars of vahiguroo - in this case guru maharaj they got mukhti- they stopped individuals but at the end behind that thought of stopping them there is some immense love for them and their karma....gyani sher singh talks about sakhi of aurenzeb where guru maharaj ji refused to destroy him physically but rather through zafarnama, its very interesting episode between sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj and aurenzeb..he basically for lack of better word- killed aurangzeb with zafarnama..there was a compassion behind guru maharaj upon stopping/killing oppressors/masands.

All in all - we sikhs cannot and should not copy actions of guru maharaj and turn them into some laws or rules as we cannot copy or mimic actions of guru maharaj as us mere mortals cannot understand karamati/incomprehensible actions by guru maharaj who is pure incarnation of vahiguroo ji himself..!!!

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Here is sakhi of sri guru gobind singh ji and mahants:

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/sri-guru-gobind-singh-ji-and-the-wicked-masands/

he Masand incident is documented in Pracheen Panth Parkash as such:

ਮਸੰਦਨ ਪਰ ਜਬ ਪਰ ਗਈ ਬਾਈ । ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਤਿਨ ਦਯੋ ਫੁਕਾਈ ।
ਤਿਹ ਪਰ ਦੀਨੋ ਡੇਹਰੋ ਚਿਨਵਾਇ । ਹੁਤੋ ਪਿੰਡ ਤਿਸ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਨਾਇ ।੧੪।
ਦੋਹਰਾ : ਗੁਰ ਸੰਗਤ ਉਨ ਤੋੜ ਬਹੁ ਤਿਹ ਥਾਂ ਲਈ ਪਰਸਾਇ ।
ਐਸੀ ਐਸੀ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨ ਦਏ ਮਸੰਦ ਮਰਵਾਇ ।੧੫।
ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।
ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।
When the masands were struck by such a perverted thought,
They also got a copy of the sacred Guru Granth Sahib burnt.
They also got their own place of worship constructed at a place,
Where they had committed such a heinous deed. (14)
Dohra : They disintegrated the Sikh congregations at many places,
And merged these splintered groups into their own following.
When the Guru came to hear about such a development,
He ordered an immediate execution of the masands. (15)
Chaupai : When the Singhs received such a decree from the Guru,
They massacred and burnt alive all the masands.
Some were slaughtered; some were buried alive in walls,
Still others were dragged and roasted in cauldrons of boiling oil. (16)

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This is invitation for any sikh who believe masand story should be turned into some sort of law or precedence-

I have few debatable points here to make with you or your leaders:

- If so then khalsa amrit sanchar where sri guru gobind singh ji took off five heads of panj pyares, should that also turn into some sort of prerequisite precedence as well. Where someone is who is about to take amrit takes off their head and give it to sri guru granth sahib ji/sri dasam granth sahib- opps i am sorry thats too extreme..ouch lets say for argument have 5 mm diameter cut on their head before proving they can be fit for amrit.

- How about using examples of shahid baba banda singh bahudar using them as precedence in civil western soceity we live? Would we do that?

- How about using examples of misal using them as precedence in civil society we live?

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Here is sakhi of sri guru gobind singh ji and mahants:

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/sri-guru-gobind-singh-ji-and-the-wicked-masands/

Bro, if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago), a Gurmukh of very high avastha told me that masands committed rape too. Along with the beadbee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, misuse of daswandh, stealing, etc; I think in this case, they deserved to be burn't alive.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

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Bro, if I remember correctly (it was a long time ago), a Gurmukh of very high avastha told me that masands committed rape too. Along with the beadbee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, misuse of daswandh, stealing, etc; I think in this case, they deserved to be burn't alive.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

I have no problem with story as Guru maharaj were beyond gunas. Also previous history- pre formation of khalsa and post were done within monarchy context.But the issue here is using exceptional examples from history setting them as precedence for normal day to day non violent disputes/issues. I highly doubt even previously non violent issues were resolved by violence if thats a case its contary to our gurmat sidhant- Dhual dharam DYA ka poot - From compassion, dharma is born.

Other communities are also struggling with this type of phenomena where people are using examples done in monarch historical period and projecting them in modern democratic era especially western countries law which is quite fair (UK/Canada/US)

So if we look at all of it once, is it battle of civilization?

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I have no problem with story as Guru maharaj were beyond gunas. Also previous history- pre formation of khalsa and post were done within monarchy context.But the issue here is using exceptional examples from history setting them as precedence for normal day to day non violent disputes/issues. I highly doubt even previously non violent issues were resolved by violence if thats a case its contary to our gurmat sidhant- Dhual dharam DYA ka poot - From compassion, dharma is born.

Some sakhis related to this context:

1. There was a masand, who used a gift (cloth) by a Sikh, for his own purpose. The only punishment he received, was that he was tied upside down from a tree.

2. Another sakhi, which is mentioned by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee, is that of a person named Dulcha. This happened when the tenth master was very young. He had stolen gold bangles, sent by a Sikh for Satguru jee. He was forgiven by the lord.

3. Another sakhi, which is also mentioned by Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee, is that of a robber who stole Rs. 700 from a trader, at Anandpur Sahib. This thief was also forgiven by Satguru jee after he promised that he won't steal again.

4. There is another sakhi, regarding a Singh, who hit a dog with a stick, for no reason. Satguru jee was not happy with him and asked him to do certain number of paaths to get forgiven.

Therefore, the above four sakhis clearly illustrate the vast amount of forgiveness inside Satguru jee, We should try to follow his teachings.

Other communities are also struggling with this type of phenomena where people are using examples done in monarch historical period and projecting them in modern democratic era especially western countries law which is quite fair (UK/Canada/US)

I don't think bro, the law in Canada is fair, when it comes to rape, aggravated assault and pedophilia. It is not that bad, in other cases. If we had Khalsa raaj, I am pretty sure these crimes would be punished by death. In my opinion, these three crimes are worse than killing a person instantly.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited by paapiman
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I don't think bro, the law in Canada is fair, when it comes to rape, aggravated assault and pedophilia. It is not that bad, in other cases. If we had Khalsa raaj, I am pretty sure these crimes would be punished by death. In my opinion, these three crimes are worse than killing a person instantly.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Not sure if sikhi supports death penalty or not. I have read some material on legal laws in maharaja ranjit singh time..don't think there was death penalty. According to anandpur sahib resolution, it does not seem it supports death penalty it actually supports socialism model of society. Please read- anandpur sahib resolution, its long but very interesting.

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Not sure if sikhi supports death penalty or not. I have read some material on legal laws in maharaja ranjit singh time..don't think there was death penalty. According to anandpur sahib resolution, it does not seem it supports death penalty it actually supports socialism model of society. Please read- anandpur sahib resolution, its long but very interesting.

Bro, Singhs waged wars to protect cows (an animal). One can easily guess, what will they do to rapists and pedophiles.

Some comments regarding Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, one of the greatest Sikh warriors.

"He was a tolerant ruler, yet did not permit the Muslims to kill cows. Twice he made expeditions to punish cow-killers; once at Kasur and once at Lahore." [1]

[1] - https://archive.org/stream/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder_djvu.txt

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The guru is always forgiving.. If you have done something wrong he forgives you but if you don't ask for forgiveness guru has no pity...

We have to learn how to be forgiving before trying to use any type of force.. The guru always gave anybody a chance even if he was the worst person in the whole world..

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The guru is always forgiving.. If you have done something wrong he forgives you but if you don't ask for forgiveness guru has no pity...

We have to learn how to be forgiving before trying to use any type of force.. The guru always gave anybody a chance even if he was the worst person in the whole world..

There is no doubt that Satguru jee can forgive any crime/sin. But, when it comes to managing a Raaj, certain laws will have to be placed to protect the civilians. Rape and pedophilia will definitely be considered for death penalty. Here is a story regarding Sardar Karam Singh Shaheed's (second jathedar of Shaheedan Misal) treatment of women molesters.

*

When in 1768, on the complaint of a Brahman whose married daughter has been forcibly seized by Hasan Khan, the Nawab of Jalalabad Lohari, the Sikh forces marched on Jalalabad under the command of Karam Singh Shahid who emerged successful in the fighting. The Nawab was tied to a cot and burnt alive. Nawab's agent, a Hindu Kalal, who informed him of the beautiful girls, was publically executed. The Brahman's daughter was restored to her husband and the Sardar saw that the food cooked by the girl was served to all the Brahmans of her husband's village. The Sikhs gave a sufficient amount of money to the girl's husband to assure good treatment for her.

* [1]

[1] - http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/karam_shahid.html

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

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ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।
ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।

Chaupai : When the Singhs received such a decree from the Guru,
They massacred and burnt alive all the masands.
Some were slaughtered; some were buried alive in walls,
Still others were dragged and roasted in cauldrons of boiling oil. (16)
N3O you left out the part where the guys says -
ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।

Satiguru ordered the Khalsa, to sacrifice all masands to Chandi.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।
Some were killed by weapons, others were bricked alive. Some were dragged by horses and killed, others were tortured in boiling oil.

What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

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The other thing people have to face up to is the plain reality that right now, in our panth we have 'jungle rule', where the physically strong dominate over weaker sections of the community.

To me that should give Singhs even more motivation to train and try and be physically prepared mentally and psychologically. These 'panthic police' aren't going anywhere anytime soon. And this means that they will only really behave if they are on the receiving end of what they dish out. Just crying about them wont cut it.

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What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

Same here. Safest bet is to read gurbani in order to understand Satguru nature.

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N3O you left out the part where the guys says -
ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।

Satiguru ordered the Khalsa, to sacrifice all masands to Chandi.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।
Some were killed by weapons, others were bricked alive. Some were dragged by horses and killed, others were tortured in boiling oil.

What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

The other way to look at this what Guru Maharaj ordered and what was carried out. Chandi bheta would possibly mean a painless death.

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Anyway whatever happened in history, there will be always disputes over historical accounts. I think massand story was real as its coming from authentic sources, many traditional sikh orders mentioning its but others think its not which is fine but the point of post whether its real or not- such exceptional out of ordinary event is been used by modern day sikhs to justify their self righteous mixed with ego/pride for panthic policing:

My question to them still remains- if they believe masand story should be turned into some sort of law or precedence -

If so then khalsa amrit sanchar where sri guru gobind singh ji took off five heads of panj pyares, should that also turn into some sort of prerequisite precedence as well. Where someone is who is about to take amrit takes off their head and give it to sri guru granth sahib ji/sri dasam granth sahib- opps i am sorry thats too extreme..ouch lets say for argument have 5 mm diameter cut on their head before proving they can be fit for amrit.

- How about using examples of shahid baba banda singh bahudar using them as precedence in civil western soceity we live? Would we do that?

- How about using examples of misal using them as precedence in civil society we live?

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Bro, Singhs waged wars to protect cows (an animal). One can easily guess, what will they do to rapists and pedophiles.

Some comments regarding Sardar Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, one of the greatest Sikh warriors.

"He was a tolerant ruler, yet did not permit the Muslims to kill cows. Twice he made expeditions to punish cow-killers; once at Kasur and once at Lahore." [1]

[1] - https://archive.org/stream/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder/SardarJassaSinghAhluwalia-APioneerSikhNationBuilder_djvu.txt

Who gets to decide if someone is a rapist or pedofile? Is it purely taken on the victim's word? What if there is no definite evidence, only circumstancial? Capital punishment has resulted in many many deaths of innocent people who were convicted of purely circumstancial evidence throughout history. Who truly should get to decide someone's fate like that? Are we really qualified as humans? What if you killed a person only to then find out they were wrongly accused? Then you have effectively murdered someone... should you then also suffer the same fate?

Look at Sharia Law.... MANY MANY innocent girls and women are wrongly killed for supposed crimes they never committed merely on suspicion or accusations from a male family member. Once they are dead, its too late to say sorry for wrongful accusation...

Do we want to be seen in this light? This is why capital punishment has been abolished in majority of civilized countries... I say civilized because I don't really consider USA to be civilized anymore (if they ever were, I think it was an illusion) just look at daily news from there!

And this too speaking purely of organized law... vigilante justice is a whole different can of worms...

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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Capital punishment was given, for example Jabar Khan had abducted a Brahmin girl and Guru Ji put him to death. There was enough evidence since his men put up fight and the women was rescued from his place. But I don't know how believable the Masand story is, the earliest reference I have found is panth parkash written 130 years after Guru Gobind Singh and it seems to be contrary to several other Sakhis. If Masands raped (like Mahants) it could be another story, but yes.

Everyday new videos appear of these kattar Sikhs beating nanga sadhus, pathis doing paath at jatheras, people questioning dasam granth etc, which is bad & has no precedence in Gur Ithaas. They behave just like extremist muslims do, no difference between them.

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The other way to look at this what Guru Maharaj ordered and what was carried out. Chandi bheta would possibly mean a painless death.

I tried looking at it like that. But it seems too disconnected from what I know of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Keep in mind, my understanding of Guru Sahib already lacks a sugar coating )

Why would he order the torture (I have to disagree with you there, this is not painless death), why would he order the torture of all masands for the acts of a few?

(if we are sure that they are acts and not rumours. There are plenty of rumours recorded in our history as well, and taken as fact today)

Guru Gobind Singh ji definitely killed people, but he always had certain code of conduct. He didn't go all out Tyrannical on people like Aurangzeb.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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Who gets to decide if someone is a rapist or pedofile? Is it purely taken on the victim's word? What if there is no definite evidence, only circumstancial? Capital punishment has resulted in many many deaths of innocent people who were convicted of purely circumstancial evidence throughout history. Who truly should get to decide someone's fate like that? Are we really qualified as humans? What if you killed a person only to then find out they were wrongly accused? Then you have effectively murdered someone... should you then also suffer the same fate?

Look at Sharia Law.... MANY MANY innocent girls and women are wrongly killed for supposed crimes they never committed merely on suspicion or accusations from a male family member. Once they are dead, its too late to say sorry for wrongful accusation...

Before you jump on you high horse about sharia take a look at England in the 21st century, where umpteen members of the ruling class from high ranking politicians to royalty are implicated in pedophilia -

Only to be exonerated by a corrupt legal system which protects them.....

No difference between sharia and the law here it seems.....

Don't even try to gloss over the rampant sexual abuse of dumb Sikh girls here that the police and social services bent over backwards to deny.

You're a typical whitey. Point fingers everywhere and ignore what's going on in your own back garden..

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Before you jump on you high horse about sharia take a look at England in the 21st century, where umpteen members of the ruling class from high ranking politicians to royalty are implicated in pedophilia -

Only to be exonerated by a corrupt legal system which protects them.....

No difference between sharia and the law here it seems.....

Don't even try to gloss over the rampant sexual abuse of dumb Sikh girls here that the police and social services bent over backwards to deny.

You're a typical whitey. Point fingers everywhere and ignore what's going on in your own back garden..

That doesn't change the fact that vigilante justice is never right. And killing people when you can never 100% be certain about the criminal... I don't think I was pointing fingers... Sharia HAS seen many many women killed (and men) for crimes they 'supposedly' committed but really didn't. What high horse??? I don't believe in capital punishment unless and until there is a way to be 100% sure that person committed the crime. Because killing an innocent person (even worse, torturing them, burning them to death etc) is far worse a crime than letting a guilty person live (behind bars). And there is no current way to be 100% sure.

And btw I consider that term 'whitey' as racist... how rude... I was quite taken aback by your post!

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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I tried looking at it like that. But it seems too disconnected from what I know of Guru Gobind Singh ji. (Keep in mind, my understanding of Guru Sahib already lacks a sugar coating )

Why would he order the torture (I have to disagree with you there, this is not painless death), why would he order the torture of all masands for the acts of a few?

(if we are sure that they are acts and not rumours. There are plenty of rumours recorded in our history as well, and taken as fact today)

Guru Gobind Singh ji definitely killed people, but he always had certain code of conduct. He didn't go all out Tyrannical on people like Aurangzeb.

I never implied Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj ordered torture of any kind on anyone. I have absolute faith in my Guru. I was just trying to rationalize the text since this is the first time I have learned about this. Thanks for your thoughts though.

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I never implied Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj ordered torture of any kind on anyone. I have absolute faith in my Guru. I was just trying to rationalize the text since this is the first time I have learned about this. Thanks for your thoughts though.

I am not saying you did. I am talking about the text as well.

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N3O you left out the part where the guys says -
ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ ।

Satiguru ordered the Khalsa, to sacrifice all masands to Chandi.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬।
Some were killed by weapons, others were bricked alive. Some were dragged by horses and killed, others were tortured in boiling oil.

What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

Sri Guru Panth Prakash (which contains the above lines) was written by Gyani Rattan Singh jee Bhangoo, who was the grandson of great Shaheed, Bhai Saab Bhai Mehtaab Singh jee. I don' t think he will lie. He must have heard the episode of masands.from someone.
The main reasons Satguru jee gave such extreme punishments were:

- burning saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee
- raping of women

If they had not done the above, Maharaaj would have given them less punishment. I don't think the punishments mentioned above, are very cruel for a rapist.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited by paapiman
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