So-Called Mistakes In Ddt Books

[CdnSikhGirl]

So your idea of truth means I should be subordinate and servile to men?? COnside myself beneath them... that they have the light of God and I don't? I will always be inferior?

And easy for you to say since your penis gives you a free ticket to being served as God.

You are right. One cannot pick and choose the meanings, which one likes and ignore the ones which one doesn't. All the arths of a tuk, will have to be accepted as the truth.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 11, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[shastarsewak]

SatKirin Bhenji,

Please let me read this Gurmat Rehat Maryada, this is sort of new information for me. The commentary in blue section - I believe it should have been "fully immerse themselves in serving their husband/wife and seeing their husband/wife as God". I wonder if this text was added with knowledge of core committee of Taksal or webmaster added his personal views.

The interpretations I made were my own which I have learned from Katha about husband-wife Soul-bride-Waheguru relationship. I agree with you strongly, that Gurbani doesn't say women are inferior, if there is anything inferior it has to be our "Chotti Soch". A woman as an individual can get united with God, gender does not play any role, but Sewa/Love/devotion/Faith does. In marriage, husband and wife are a team working for a single goal that is to unite with Waheguru ji.

Also, it is true, when you actually love your spouse, you want to serve them automatically, not because it is some required mandatory practise, but because of "Chao" and acknowledging presence of Waehguru in spouse. The same "Bhavna" logic goes when you are serving in Langar hall - tapda twaa becomes Waheguru, jhoothay bartan becomes Waheguru, whom you serve out of love, the same logic goes when you are in Chaauni - cleaning after Horses, getting them pathay/chollay becomes an act of loving, in other words true bride truly serving Waheguru.

But at the same time, with respect, isn't it possible that meaning you have deduced from above mentioned Pankti is bit biased - to me this pankti does not say that woman must see her worth as an individual, and additionally a.p.m.u the message is not about uplifting of women. I believe the message is actually about serving God truly that makes one a true Sati, not the false practises, which could be forced upon by family or culture or done because of any other benefits.

[CdnSikhGirl]

I take it to mean it was speaking out against the practice of Sati... where women would kill themselevs on their husbands funeral pyre, Hinduism taught that this brought 'honour' on the family if she did this it owuld be seen as favourable by the Hindu dieties as an act of devotion to her husband whom she was supposed to see as God. (See Laws of Manu).

This shabad is saying that these practices are false (we agree here) and that this is not how you reach God. A true sati takes God as their 'Husband Lord' (as their support) and surrendering to Gods will (which was that her husband died, but she is alive and supposed to live life).

Although we are advocated to be married and pair off... we are told in Gurbani over and over to not have attachments... even to people. Devotion to ap hysical husband to the point of killing life that was given by Waheguru Ji, is attachment. It's attachment to a physical spouse. Certainly you can love your spouse and support each other, but his will was for one to live and one to die. So she who lives through that grief and moves on, with her faith in Waheguru Ji will survive it.

You have to understand the context sati was used in Hinduism. It was a very stong symbol of how women were subject to and beneath men her whole life. Laws of Manu stated that a woman must never be independent... subject to her Father in her youth, her Husband in marriage and even her Father after her husband's death (and presumably, it was family members who advocated sati because she was now a liability in the family... seen as a curse on the family being a widow).

Guru Ji was speaking against this. So yes its uplifting women to equal status of her husband by saying that just because he died, doesn't mean she has to. It's saying that attachment to physical husband was false, and all of us should only put our faith in the ONE Creator as Husband Lord. It doesnt mean don't get married, but it means that life can and does go on outside of physical marriage... and that she can and will survive if she puts her faith in God alone.

We agree that divine light should be seen equally in both spouses by each other. None should be coerced. Women were not meant to just serve their husbands while their husbands get to enjoy that position of authority and privelage. I don't think you can change out the wording to mean 'spouse' because it does use 'husband lord' I dont think there is way that it can mean both ways in any interpretation.

And that tool tip is if you mouse over the words in Gurmat Rehet Maryada. So they leave no chance to interpret it as being a two way relationship. They clearly define "wife serving husband as God" and even give examples stating that Sikh women in history showed this devotion by serving their husbands. So DDT does in fact outright state in numerour places in GRM that women are to be in servitude to their husbands who they are to see as God. And the husbands are not told even once in GRM to see their wife equally in this way. They are told that their SInghni is a faithful follower...and to give them respect. But theya re not told to treat them as their equal, see the light of God in them equally and to serve them as well.

So DDT is laying out definite roles and it even states so in the GRM where I screenshot:

Women are to serve their husbands as God, while he leads / is in authority over / makes all the decisions. Though she is told he is God to her, he is not told the same of her. He is told she is a 'faithful follower'. She is told to serve, he is told to lead.

Unless they change several places in the GRM, there is no other way to interpret what they are saying.

This is why I do not believe DDT is infallibl.

Gurbani instructs us to see the same divine light is in all equally.

DDT GRM instructs only women to see the divine light of God in men, but men are not instructed to see the divine light of God in women.

Gurbani tells us to serve all. DDT tells women to serve men.

Both can't be correct. So which is higher authority??

[CdnSikhGirl]

@Shastersewak: I'm also not the only one who is questioning this exact thing in DDT's GRM... someone else has also brought up the very same thing on Sikh Sangat... and like you and I, believe in order to be in accordance with Gurbani, it should say both should see each other as the same (faithful Singh/Singhni or Both should see each other as God).

[paapiman]

There is nothing against females in Gurmat Rehat Maryada. It talks about facts.

An adult Gursikh son, even if he is spiritually higher than his mother, will keep bowing to her mother; in the same way, a Gursikh wife, even if she is spiritually higher than her husband, will keep bowing to her Gursikh husband. These are Sikh ethics and values.

Mother (female) is also considered as the first guru of a child, not father (male). In addition to that, it is a fact that women play a greater role in the birth of a child.

Giving respect to someone is different from subjugation.

Therefore, in Gurmat, optimum respect is given to both the genders.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

There is nothing against females in Gurmat Rehat Maryada. It talks about facts.

An adult Gursikh son, even if he is spiritually higher than his mother, will keep bowing to her mother; in the same way, a Gursikh wife, even if she is spiritually higher than her husband, will keep bowing to her Gursikh husband. These are Sikh ethics and values.

Mother (female) is also considered as the first guru of a child, not father (male). In addition to that, it is a fact that women play a greater role in the birth of a child.

Giving respect to someone is different from subjugation.

Therefore, in Gurmat, optimum respect is given to both the genders.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So why would the husband not give the same respect to his wife? Why would she be commanded to 'serve him as God' while he is only told to show her respect? Why the difference?

Why would he not also bow to his wife in the same way? If they both respect each other...

The answer is in authority... A son bows to his Mother because she is an authority figure over him.

In your scenario, she to bows to him because he is in authority over her. (or at least perceived authority) at least in DDT's mind. That's why she is to see him as God and he only sees her as a follower. And this is against Gurbani.

Authority Over = Subjection. A son is subject to his parents because they raised him, and have authority over him.

Since Gurbani says both genders contain the same divine light equally.. two adults a male and female, one is not subject to the other. They are equals. Both should be giving each other the same respect. And nobody should bow to anyone except SGGSJ.

Optimum respect to both genders would be both showing respect in the same way, so as to not have any perceived hierarchy where one is in authority over the other.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Authority Over = Subjection. A son is subject to his parents because they raised him, and have authority over him.

Please read carefully.

An adult Gursikh son, even if he is spiritually higher than his mother, will keep bowing to her mother; in the same way, a Gursikh wife, even if she is spiritually higher than her husband, will keep bowing to her Gursikh husband.

A Mother has no authority (in a sense) over son, once he is an adult and can live on his own, but still he has to respect her/bow to her (according to Gurmat).

Even Satguru jee (God) used to bow to her mother and Satguru's wives used to bow to Satguru jee. These are Sikh ethics and values. No one can change them.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Please read carefully.

An adult Gursikh son, even if he is spiritually higher than his mother, will keep bowing to her mother; in the same way, a Gursikh wife, even if she is spiritually higher than her husband, will keep bowing to her Gursikh husband.

A Mother has no authority (in a sense) over son, once he is an adult and can live on his own, but still he has to respect her/bow to her (according to Gurmat).

Even Satguru jee (God) used to bow to her mother and Satguru's wives used to bow to Satguru jee. These are Sikh ethics and values. No one can change them.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

So you are saying the Husband does not need to show the same respect to his wife? Why is that? Why is showing respect in that way a one way street? Why does she have to show respect to her husband by bowing to him...but he does not have to show the same respect to her? What did he do to earn that position where he deserves her respect but she doesn't also deserve his in the same way?

Please answer... why would he not also bow to his wife out of respect?

If it's not because he has authority over her... then why? Why would he not also show the same respect to her?

Edited May 12, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Kuttabanda2]

Paapiman, be ready to defend your Baba Gurbachan Singh and Taksal:

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

1. Regarding Guru Har Rai Sahibs marriage:

I am no modern apologetic Sikh trying to deny that some of our Gurus had more than a marriage, but there were some causes such as having no children (Guru Arjan Ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji) but to claim that Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters and that too at the age of 11 is plain stupid. Yes, our Gurus married quite early but the bride only came later when she was older, but what about this marriage where 8 sisters are married off to Guru Ji? What is the historical basis?

2. Bhagats were out of janam maran - reincarnation. Besides that they had taken Amrit from Guru Nanak Dev Ji so they had no need to take amrit from Guru Gobind Singh (10th Nanak) as some of your taksalis claim.

3. Baba Gurbachan is in clear contradiction with Gurmat by saying you can't recite Gurbani while walking:

Moreover, to justify this so called Rehat he makes up a Sakhi about Guru Nanak Dev Jis feet bleeding when a Sikh recited Bani while walking.

Did Baba Ji know of this pangti?

Page 404, Line 18

ਚਾਲਤ ਬੈਸਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਚਰਨ ਖਟਾਨੀ ॥੨॥

Walking, sitting and sleeping, I chant the Lord's Praises; I treasure His Feet in my mind and body. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev

In regards to the reincarnation of Bhagats, read Att Khalsa Mool Mantar.

[Kuttabanda2]

Before going any further, there is one thing to note down.

The DamDami Taksal has used Sakhis, folklore, and traditional legends to instill a lesson of ethics and morals.

furthermore, can you reference which book makes these claims? Some of the books from Taksal by are by authors who admittedly make a few details up about their own Sants and Jathedars.

I remember someone pointing out how the books of taksal have gone through some editing at changes even after the author has left the world.

We've all heard the Sakhi of the Singh who misread Gurbani and Guru Sahib then tells him that he is bending and twisting his fingers. What would you say to that?

If Guru Nanak Dev Jee were to bleed, I doubt it would be degrading or showing weakness, because Guru Sahib is beyond death and pain, it wouldn't matter to him.

[paapiman]

Page 404, Line 18

ਚਾਲਤ ਬੈਸਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਚਰਨ ਖਟਾਨੀ ॥੨॥

Walking, sitting and sleeping, I chant the Lord's Praises; I treasure His Feet in my mind and body. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev

It also says sleeping above. Can you chant praises of Lord while sleeping?? I cannot.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

^^^^ Actually when one gets to a high avasta they can... For example sant gyani gurbachan Singh used to recite gurbani while sleeping..

[paapiman]

^^^^ Actually when one gets to a high avasta they can... For example sant gyani gurbachan Singh used to recite gurbani while sleeping..

That's right bro. But we cannot, as our avastha is low. All Gurbani updesh cannot be seen in all humans. But according to SikhKhoj:

Quote

Gurbani has ONE updesh for all mankind, why would one updesh for brahmgyanis be different to updesh for normal human beings?

Unquote

Even during the times of Satgurus, different updesh were given to different people depending on their avastha.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 14, 2015 by paapiman

[Singh123456777]

"Gurbani has ONE updesh for all mankind, why would one updesh for brahmgyanis be different to updesh for normal human beings?"

I think this is true.

[paapiman]

"Gurbani has ONE updesh for all mankind, why would one updesh for brahmgyanis be different to updesh for normal human beings?"

I think this is true.

In a sense he is right, but not completely.

You think, the following updesh is for you or me.

ਮੇਰਾ ਬੈਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ॥

My physician is the Guru, the Lord of the Universe.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

Why can't it be?

[paapiman]

Why can't it be?

Then, why do we go to doctors when we fall ill? Don't we have faith that Guru sahib is the greatest doctor.

There is also another tuk which states:

ਅਉਖਧ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਤੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਛਾਰੁ ॥

All medicines and remedies, mantras and tantras are nothing more than ashes.

ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰੁ ਰਿਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰੁ ॥੩॥

Enshrine the Creator Lord within your heart. ||3||

Why do we take medications to cure diseases? Don't we have faith that Gurbani will cure us.

Simple answer - We cannot follow the updesh completely or the updesh (in a sense) does not apply to us, because of our low avastha.

Once Srimaan Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj Kaleranwale, fell from a horse and received injuries. Babajee covered himself in a sheet and went into deep meditation for two days. After that, he had completely recovered. Now, this is called following Gurbani updesh.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 12, 2015 by paapiman

[SikhKhoj]

to kutta banda, Book is Gurbani Paath Darpan.

to paapi, the tuk says that you have to chant Gurbani at all times i.e. also when walking. There is not a single tuk in Gurbani saying you can not recite bani while walking, if so please show me.

Even your favorite Faridkot teeka translates the tuk as:

ਹੇ ਹਰੀ ਚਲਤੇ ਬੈਠਤੇ ਸੋਵਤੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਜਸੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਮੇਂ ਚਰਨੋਂ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਹੀ (ਖਟਾਨੀ) ਸਮਾਇ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ॥੨॥

Why did Gurbachan Singh attack the concept of Nagar Kirtan by adding fake sakhis and not even giving one Gurbani tuk to support his claims?

[SikhKhoj]

Don't beat around the bush, which Gurbani tuk says its forbidden to recite Bani for normal Sikhs while walking? Are Nagar Keertans anti Gurmat then according to you and Baba Gurbachan Singh?

[Singh123456777]

I heard a sakhi not to do kirtan sohila while walking.. Maybe sant gurbachan Singh is talking about that?

[SikhKhoj]

Yes, Gurbachan Singh quotes that Kirtan Sohila sakhi - Guru ji bleeding sakhi.

While Kirtan Sohila is a bani to be recited before going to sleep, you can recite it at any time, and also while walking. Thus the name of the bani doesn't change the fact that it is still bani.

Gurbani encourages us to jap naam whenever and wherever we can, such sakhis have put unnecessary dubidha in us. Check threads on SikhSangat to see how confused, narrow minded many Sikhs are and how they worry about trivial things instead of focussing on Gurbani updesh (which again is for all mankind).

The Shabads adressed to Muslims also count for us, the Shabads about Yogis also count for us, the Gurbani updesh is the same. If gurbani doesn't forbid us to chant bani while walking then I dont see why we should believe these things.

Edited May 12, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[shastarsewak]

To Satkiran: Bibi ji, you are just getting deeper into unnecessary chaos. Mind is so powerful, Munn would always want to deceive you, take you away from Sikhi or Sikhs or meditation. I agree, there are mistakes(known or unknown) in Taksal book (or books), there may be several other mistakes in several other books. Why do you forget the source? Waheguru - the one who doesn't have any religion at all? Munn is so creative that it need only few keywords, it will write a story instantly, say the keyword is Fear, it will build an enemy fort just outside your gates, and you will see yourself guarding the towers, and intruder is already there inside the fence.. it has already reached your treasure room - - your peace! (before you read this word, it was already there!!)

I'll tell you the truth, there are few things I feel some taksalis over-do it, but at the same time I have learned a lot from Taksali singhs, Like guru says, take what you like, leave the rest, but never let anyone pull you into game of "Nindya", like some people are doing here. Which means, if there is something wrong somewhere, you should contact the Jathedaar of that particular Jatha /Chaauni /institution and seek explanation, then you go to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, if you are still not satisfied, like I said before, call home, do an Ardas and ask Waheguru ji for help, you will get your answers.

"Gunna ka hovay vaasla, taan kadh vas layee je,

je gunn hovan sajana mill sanjh karije,

Sanjh karije gunn keri chodd avgun challiye" ~ Ang 765

if you want you can learn from them if you find anything useful, leave the rest in the box. I'm not asking you to give any time to taksal, but give time to this thought, you are not married to a taksali singh who wants you to consider him as a God, then why worry about such things? Generally speaking, I have rarely come across a case where a true "Singh" wants to be considered as God, a humble sikh would always want to be a "Sewak". Like General Macarthur said "A General Wife is General's General" Such respect is automatically given, when in true Love. But, for a male who wants to be considered as God, such a disposition is craving of heavily maya-infested mind, it cannot be love. In Punjabi culture this problem exists, where male is always right, but if you ask around, even this practise is slowly dying, it will be dead soon.

I used to get worried a lot, why we are not doing enough, WE are letting the quality go down, we must fight the Masands - see we are talking about symptoms and actions, we forgot to include the source-healer - Guru, Guru also knows what is going on, but Guru is silent, Guru is not sending "Singhs" to do the "Sodhaa" of sikhs trying to destroy sikhi from inside. Perhaps a war scenario is being repeated here, once after 2-3 battles "Khalsa" got so proud that it can win any battles on its own, it doesn't need any help, Guru from a distance was listening, Singhs were claiming to be formidable, lightning fast etc etc., soon battle erupted, The first few waves of Singhs got "Thrashed", they got wiped out, Bhai Daya Singh came running to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, "Maharaj, we are losing the battle, Singhs are dying, they cannot even raise swords a bit, they are getting slaughtered", by that time the enemy had already taken control of battlefield, Guru Sahib replied to Bhai Daya Singh, "Khalsa was so proud, it can win any battle on its own, let them win for themselves!" Bhai Daya Singh ji asked for forgiveness on behalf of Singhs, Guru ji said that Khalsa has/will be able to win battles only with help of Guru, but since it was too late, most of the Singhs had died, Guru Sahib sent an Arrow towards the sky, Khalsa army re-took the battlefield. The moral is, if there is something wrong in Rehat Maryada, if it is not as per Gurmat, we must rely on Guru Sahib, we must do an Ardas, and let Guru Sahib sort this out himself.

Edited May 13, 2015 by shastarsewak

[ramgharia]

we have so many maryadas some say keski is kakar same belive in male dominance (Ddt) some follow many hindu rituls. ww should have only one rehat maryada for whole panth weather it is nihangs taksal AKJ should only one maryada. i am strictly against having given male a special place in Ddt. some give kirpan ka amrit to women which is against gurmat .

[paapiman]

Don't beat around the bush, which Gurbani tuk says its forbidden to recite Bani for normal Sikhs while walking? Are Nagar Keertans anti Gurmat then according to you and Baba Gurbachan Singh?

I will research more on this topic and let you know.

Waheguru jee Kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[paapiman]

What records? Is a website a source now?

Give me the book names and authors, preferably written pre 1850, mentioning Guru Sahib marrying 8 sisters.

And why did Gurbachan Singh attack nagar keertan concept like Missionaries attack amrit sanchar?

The website refers to several records. I will try to research and name at least one.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh