paapiman Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Satkirin_Kaur, on 02 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said: BTW AKJ and DDT are both sects. They both have some good and bad. DDTs bad is their view of women. AKJ is their differing views on kakkars (keski) and sarbloh bibek but at least AKJ practice the full equality taught in Gurbani while DDT does not. BOTH claim to have direct link back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji... I don't think, even people associated with AKJ say that they have a direct link back to the tenth master. Can someone please confirm this for me? Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original: "Unfortunately at many points in our history, true and authentic Sikh rehit became something that was rare. After numerous holocausts and extended periods of living in the jungles of Punjab, differences in rehit crept into the Sikh Panth. The rehit is a code of conduct which has been passed down from the original amrit sanchaar in an oral fashion. Old rehitnamas, like the one written by Bhai Desa Singh state, (in the seventh stanza) that rehit which the five utter, keep that steadfast in your mind and later in the ninth stanza, that is the first rehit, the one which the five Singhs said in the Paahul ceremony. The Khalsa Rehit suffered some dilution in the 18th and 19th century. But the Malwa area of Punjab had some areas where this rehit was preserved. Certain movements like the Namdhari movement, which originally had amazing rehit and was originally not a Gurudom, came out of Malwa. Deras like Baba Ajaipal Singh were known for strict rehit. So the original Khalsa rehit was not lost, it was kept in some places. How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day. Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada. Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group. So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history. It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars. Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original: "Unfortunately at many points in our history, true and authentic Sikh rehit became something that was rare. After numerous holocausts and extended periods of living in the jungles of Punjab, differences in rehit crept into the Sikh Panth. The rehit is a code of conduct which has been passed down from the original amrit sanchaar in an oral fashion. Old rehitnamas, like the one written by Bhai Desa Singh state, (in the seventh stanza) that rehit which the five utter, keep that steadfast in your mind and later in the ninth stanza, that is the first rehit, the one which the five Singhs said in the Paahul ceremony. The Khalsa Rehit suffered some dilution in the 18th and 19th century. But the Malwa area of Punjab had some areas where this rehit was preserved. Certain movements like the Namdhari movement, which originally had amazing rehit and was originally not a Gurudom, came out of Malwa. Deras like Baba Ajaipal Singh were known for strict rehit. So the original Khalsa rehit was not lost, it was kept in some places. How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day. Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada. Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group. So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history. It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars. Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance." Read my question carefully. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL 07 Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 AKJ is not a direct samparda of the tenth master since it was never created by the Gurus I agree that DDT is a sect a closed community of scholars who live a unique lifestyle dedicated to education and parchaar and the preperation of Sikh clergy. It was created as the scholarly, academic foundation of the Sikh religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 AKJ is not a direct samparda of the tenth master since it was never created by the Gurus I agree that DDT is a sect a closed community of scholars who live a unique lifestyle dedicated to education and parchaar and the preperation of Sikh clergy. It was created as the scholarly, academic foundation of the Sikh religion. One would think scholars / academics should not misinterpret Gurbani to put Singhnis in a subordinate inferior position to Singhs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 AKJ is not a direct samparda of the tenth master since it was never created by the Gurus I agree that DDT is a sect a closed community of scholars who live a unique lifestyle dedicated to education and parchaar and the preperation of Sikh clergy. It was created as the scholarly, academic foundation of the Sikh religion. Makes sense. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 One would think scholars / academics should not misinterpret Gurbani to put Singhnis in a subordinate inferior position to Singhs... you are getting very annoying with this drivel. go and take it up with them if you feel so strong about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original: reads more like a propaganda item from their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL 07 Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 One would think scholars / academics should not misinterpret Gurbani to put Singhnis in a subordinate inferior position to Singhs... You really are questioning the perfections of the Satguru's by implying certain Sikh sampardas are sexist. Sikhism is the only religion that his given man and women equality however the mingling of both sexes in certain areas is a recipe for disaster. Sant Gurbachan Singh Khalsa was once asked that they should take the jatha to Sri Darbar Sahib because there is so much naam there and Sant Ji replied "there is a lot of naam there but there is also a lot of kaam there." Therefore certain instititions such as Taksal or Nihangs ban women simply because they don't want the effects of kaam taking place within the institition, as Gurbani clearly explains Istree Purkh Kaam viyapeya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 (edited) Call it what you want... it's still sexism and still against Gurbani. Those with true pure soul are those who can actually be in the company of the opposite sex without thinking about sex! Locking yourself in a bubble (and making the the opposite half suffer with less rights) because you don't think you can control yourself is very wrong and hampering others in the process. Oh and did I mention it's against Gurbani... I think I have been the ONLY one to actually support my stance on equality with Gurbani while the rest of you keep making silly excuses to justify your dominant and controlling position. Edited May 3, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 Sant Gurbachan Singh Khalsa was once asked that they should take the jatha to Sri Darbar Sahib because there is so much naam there and Sant Ji replied "there is a lot of naam there but there is also a lot of kaam there." Interesting point. It just shows how powerful, the demon of kaam is. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Just because some Singhs can not control their kaam... is not a good reason to make the Singhnis suffer. At least AKJ's rehet maryada is closest to the original teaching. Why is it that AKJ can have full equality, and yet majority of the Singhs from AKJ don't feel threatened by them having equal opportunity? Any personal kaam issues of individual Singhs is their own issue to overcome. It's not fair to make someone suffer with less opportunity because you 'might' think something inappropriate. Then it's all about you at the other's cost. In this case... the Sikh women are the ones suffering. And this just another silly argument anyway. So far we have for reasons: 1 Natural order of things / heirarchy with men above women 2 traditional society in India 3 women do all that yucky stuff like have babies and periods and are hence unclean 4 Singhs worrying about their own kaam issues ..... and you are all missing the REAL reason: Male drive to dominate governed by testosterone and the fear of giving up that control over someone else and hence losing their dominant and privileged position. And greed... Those in power want to stay in power so they gain the most benefit at the cost of others. Although AKJ as an organized Jatha is fairly new, their Rehet Maryada is closest to the original (I was saying their RM is traceable back to Guru Ji's time, not necessarily the Jatha as an organized group)... and their RM espouses the closest to what Gurbani says and teaches of equality (among other things). I know all of you DDT supporters balk at it and spout the word propaganda, but you have not successfully discounted the arguments as to why their RM is closest to the original. I respect AKJ MUCH MUCH more than I ever will DDT and yes it's entirely to do with DDTs sexist views. Just because a group might be able to trace their lineage back in history, doesn't mean they are the best or even right, or that what's currently being taught is what was taught in the beginning. But myself I follow SRM which is the Panthic Rehet Maryada. And even Guru Gobind Singh Ji relied on Panthic decision on some things... so the fact that Sikh Rehet Maryada was installed after years of deliberation by Sikhs from ALL sects...and is the closest thing we have to a Unified Panthic Rehet Maryada, its the one that should be followed. It's the most up to date, has taken all the groups concerns in hand (and no not every groups will get ALL of what they want in it... its impossible). SRM was made to closest follow what is taught in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, without exclusion to any Sikhs (no matter what their colour, ethnicity, caste, creed, or gender). If you want to follow a more restrictive Rehet Maryada that excludes half the Sikh population (Singhnis), then by all means do so, but don't try to shove it down everyone else's throat as if it's Guru Ji's own words and the correct RM that everyone should follow. And don't try to justify it as some Divine hierarchy or natural order that Waheguru Ji wanted for women to be inferior and subordinate to men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Therefore certain instititions such as Taksal or Nihangs ban women simply because they don't want the effects of kaam taking place within the institition, as Gurbani clearly explains Istree Purkh Kaam viyapeya. This sounds like a method of hiding away from the issue. According to my understanding, one will NOT conquer the mind by trying to hide from any of the 5 dhut. The strength is in the one that approaches and slays the dhut out of the way, not the one that dodges them The problem is not the flocks of women around, the problem is the weak man's Mind and it's TEMPTATIONS. The strength and purity is in the one that can walk through the red-light district of Amsterdam, totally unaffected or tempted and in doing so, maintains his innermost purity throughout the walk ! Guru Nanak jis says to be the 'Lotus' that rises above the deep muddy waters to get across. The quoted is saying to make the waters less muddier and deeper instead. You know that Gurbani uses the lotus metaphor for many specific reasons, and one of them is because a lotus only grows and blossoms in muddy waters! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) The problem is not the flocks of women around, the problem is the weak man's Mind and it's TEMPTATIONS. The strength and purity is in the one that can walk through the red-light district of Amsterdam, totally unaffected or tempted and in doing so, maintains his innermost purity throughout the walk ! Bro, you are referring to a very high avastha. Have you heard of the sakhi of Baba Joga jee? Even after reaching such high spiritual levels, he was about to commit adultery with a prostitute. Not even a female acquaintance/friend, but a prostitute. It is very easy to talk like a Brahamgyani, but hard to walk the talk. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh Edited May 4, 2015 by paapiman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL 07 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Call it what you want... it's still sexism and still against Gurbani. Those with true pure soul are those who can actually be in the company of the opposite sex without thinking about sex! Locking yourself in a bubble (and making the the opposite half suffer with less rights) because you don't think you can control yourself is very wrong and hampering others in the process. Oh and did I mention it's against Gurbani... I think I have been the ONLY one to actually support my stance on equality with Gurbani while the rest of you keep making silly excuses to justify your dominant and controlling position. So are you saying that the great saint Baba Nand Singh Kaleravale was wrong because he would not allow women to come to his hut or see him in person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL 07 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Just because some Singhs can not control their kaam... is not a good reason to make the Singhnis suffer. Infact females have more kaam than men as Farid states: Farida Eh Vis Gandala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) So are you saying that the great saint Baba Nand Singh Kaleravale was wrong because he would not allow women to come to his hut or see him in person Actually yes... the Gurus never taught exclusivity or that Sikhi was for men only. And they actually set the example too! No true Sant would ever exclude half the Sikh population simply because of what's between their legs. As Paapiman has already said, childbrearing is the sole purpose of marriage, and outside of marriage there is no need for the genetalia... so outside of a marriage or having children, in all other matters gender should not even come into the equasion. Instead, ALL humans / Sikhs should be recognized for the same divine light within. So yes... if he was discriminating against women I think that was wrong and goes against the teaching of the Gurus! A Good EMAMPLE: If kaam was an issue for having women participate, then what Guru Amar Das Ji did doesnt even make sense. He actually stopped veiled women from entering the congregation. If kaam was the issue, then he would have been fine with them veiling same as Muslims... to protect the men from transgressing (punish the women for the men's bad minds). But he actually spoke out AGAINST this practice and would not allow the women to enter if they were veiled. So beyond just encouraging them to participate, he actually uplifted them from the shakles of suffering from men's kaam. He had them remove their veils so they would be equals. Edited May 4, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 So are you saying that the great saint Baba Nand Singh Kaleravale was wrong because he would not allow women to come to his hut or see him in person Actually yes... the Gurus never taught exclusivity or that Sikhi was for men only. And they actually set the example too! Guys , please before we start claiming saints said this and that and claiming they are wrong. Please try to understand the crowd which above discourse is addressed to and reason for saint discourse..It's from celibacy point of view for celibates and their life style. Thats a right discourse as its meant to be properly contextualized to only celibates. Take on Kaam is quite different from gristhi (marriage house holder) life style. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 I think we are going off-topic. Someone should lock this thread. In conclusion, AKJ does not trace back its roots to tenth master. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 I think we are going off-topic. Someone should lock this thread. In conclusion, AKJ does not trace back its roots to tenth master. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh But it DOES trace it's Rehet Maryada back to the original! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Infact females have more kaam than men as Farid states: Farida Eh Vis Gandala Not bloody likely! Look at stitistics in marriages who is the one more likely to commit infedility! Most women can talk to men without thinking about having sex with them! Not so the other way around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 But it DOES trace it's Rehet Maryada back to the original! Thats quite debatable sat kiran kaur ji, as they change the whole position of sikh theological form of god which is sargun and nirgun confined into very abhramic view of god- gurmat dasam dwar anhad shabad realm called sachkhand where only selective few are allowed and where seeker keep their individuality yet in unity with god. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Infact females have more kaam than men as Farid states: Farida Eh Vis Gandala You are right Singh. But, they have more self-control too. Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa Waheguru jee kee Fateh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 Why is it that AKJ can have full equality, and yet majority of the Singhs from AKJ don't feel threatened by them having equal opportunity? Do the Akj have female panj pyare to administer amrit? And who has been leading the akj since its creation? men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAL 07 Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) Not bloody likely! It seems they have high krodh aswell Don't argue with a fool, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience AKJ cannot say they have great ideals and root to the Guru's times The jatha itself condems Raag Mala and Kesh as 5th kakaar not a good start is it. The most kaam issue posts on forums etc are from AKJ members Edited May 4, 2015 by PAL 07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts