Enquiry On A Line Of Bani

[malwadoabamajha]

i have always in the past presumed my faith loves and respects other dharms to the extent where they are considered as equal pathways to God. I have in the past qouted this verse to non sikhs and sikhs alike

1)save ALL the children,

by whichever way, through whichever door, but to save them from the

BURNING WORLD

'jagat jalanda rakh lay , apanee kirpaa dhaar

jit duaaraay ubaray tithay lehu ubaar'

I came across this verse again on a akj site posting. However somebody has just came along and sed something which has just made me question this belief saying it is misinterpreted by the entire panth. The response is below, can anyone help clear the confusion as to what this shabad really means? Is the author of the first qoute posting correct or the second response below? If the answer is the second one then does that mean other pathways are not recognised as capable to get to the same goal within this life?

2)The misinterpretation of this Gurbani Pankiti is rife in Panth. The meanings of this pankiti should be as follows:

Vaheguru, Protect the burning world through your divine grace. Whichever way they can be delivered, through whichever special one doorway they can be delivered, deliver them.

The ones who are interpret this to mean that there are many doors of deliverance are wrong. This pankiti actually makes it clear that there is only one doorway and that of course is the doorway of Gurmat. According to Gurbani Viyakaran, the word “duaarai†is a singular noun of “Karan Kaarak†kind. The dulaavaan in the end of this word prove that this word is a singular. Then the kirya i.e. verb – Ubrai too is a singular verb.

Guru Sahib is saying in the pankiti to deliver the world no matter what it takes. Whichever that doorway is through which this world can be saved, deliver this world through that single doorway.

These above stated meanings have been done based on the meanings done by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee was of very strong opinion that only Gurmat Dharam i.e. the Faith of Guru Nanak Dev jee alone offers full salvation or full deliverance from this world into Sach Khand.

Daas,

[Hari]

Dear malwadoabamajha Ji I will attempt to tell what is written in Guru Granth Darpan by Prof. Sahib Singh.I consider this book on Guru Sahib as an authority.

The quote, transliterated into Roman English is as follows:

Slok M: 3

Jagat Jalanda Rakh Lai Apni Kirpa Dhar.

Jit Duarai Ubarai Titai Laihu Ubar.

Satigur Sukh Vekhali-a Sacha Sabad Bichar.

Nanak Avar Na Sujha-i Har Bin Bakhsanhar:1: (p.853)

That is the whole Slok.Now I will give you the meaning, word by word from the Guru Granth Darpan, translated by me into English:

Jagat = the world; Jalanda = burning (in it's vices, vikaar); Rakh Lai = to save; Dhar = to do, dhaar ke, kar ke.

Jit Duarai = at whatever door, jis dar te; Ubarai = to be saved, bach sake; Titai = like that, use taran hee.

Satigur = the Guru did, Guru ne; Sukh = Self-bliss, Atmik anand; Vekhali-a = showed, dekhalia; Sacha Sabad = Eternal True Word of Vahiguru; Bichar = to contemplate on, vichar ke; Avar = someone or something else, koe hor

Translation:

O Lord!The World is burning [in it's vikaar, kaam, krodh, lobh, moh ahankar], save us with your Grace.

However you choose to save us [by which ever door you choose for us].

The Satguru has showed me the Bliss of the True Word.

O Nanak: Nothing else can bless us [save us] except for the Lord.

I am conviced the AKJ is wrong in it's interpretation of this Slok, by what you have posted.Jit Duarai means "by whatever door" or "whatever way".

If you have access to Guru Granth Darpan, then please have a look at what Prof. Sahib Singh says about this Slok by Guru Amar Das Ji.It seems like the AKJ are preaching like fundementalist Christians and Muslims.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have tried to translate Prof.Sahib Singh's Panjabi viakhya of the above Slok to the best of my ability.Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way.I'm no scholar, so I'm bound to make mistakes.My only wish is that I could have used Gurmukhi font on this discussion site.Sat Sri Akal.

[Guest]

My only wish is that I could have used Gurmukhi font on this discussion site.Sat Sri Akal.

I'll work on this over the weekend and see if I can do something about it.

[harsharan000]

 

ਜਗਤੁ ਜਲੰਦਾ ਰਖਿ ਲੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥

Jagath Jalandhaa Rakh Lai Aapanee Kirapaa Dhhaar ||

The world is going up in flames - shower it with Your Mercy, and save it!

 

ਜਿਤੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਉਬਰੈ ਤਿਤੈ ਲੈਹੁ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥

Jith Dhuaarai Oubarai Thithai Laihu Oubaar ||

Save it, and deliver it, by whatever method it takes.

 

Dear OP,

to your enquiry about the  2 verses above,  following are my 2 cents:

In the first verse, it is said that the whole world is burning.....

But burning in which way?

Well, the whole creation is burning in the "chaurasee ka ckakar", in the endless cycle of births and deaths.

And the way to get out is mainly by His grace.

 

Then, in the second verse it is said save it  by anyway you think fit.

But the complete interpretation would be best, if we look at the third verse, where it is said:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਵੇਖਾਲਿਆ ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

Sathigur Sukh Vaekhaaliaa Sachaa Sabadh Beechaar ||

The True Guru has shown the way to peace, contemplating the True Word of the Shabad.

 

Here Guru Jee is very clear, and goes right to the root of the problem to solve it, for as we can see He says that, by contemplating /meditating on the Shabad/Nam as per teachings in Gurmat, we obtain eternal peace and bliss, for it is only by meditating on Nam or Shabad, that one gets freed from the burning cycle of births and deaths, and it is only by doing this bhakti that we merge in our Origin, Akal, Ajoonee, Satnam....

Stay blessed.

SSA.

[Mooorakh]

Wasn't the Bani of our Guru Sahib was enough for us to resolve "The purpose" of human life.

The only reason for  adding the bani of

Kabir ji

Farid ji 

Bhagat Trilochan, 

Bhagat Ravidas  

Dhanna ji

Sain nai

King Pipa

Sadhna ji - a kasai -  and 14 such in SGGS ji was to make us understand that 

It's not the jaat ( caste), creed, colour, religion, daily routine/ rituals you follow, work you do for living, country, social status etc that makes you meet the Lord only the love for your Lord ot prema Bhakti that matters. 

[dalsingh101]

4 hours ago, Mooorakh said:

It's not the jaat ( caste), creed, colour, religion, daily routine/ rituals you follow, work you do for living, country, social status etc that makes you meet the Lord only the love for your Lord ot prema Bhakti that matters. 

I agree, but how comes our people have failed to even remotely incorporate this truth into our social fabric. Everything you mention seems to be exactly what our society currently resolves around.

[Mooorakh]

Haha .. that's how his game is..it was the same years ago and still same prevaing..  there are millions of stones and one among them is Paras to understand his game. Many coals and one diamond and so on. Guruji was that One who understood and made ' his own' people understand it.... Rest all are his playthings dying n taking birth in circles

• Why was Bhai Mardana ji not ' converted' by Guru Nanak Sahib or Sai Miya Mir ji or Painde Khan ( by Guru Hargobind Sahib) for that matter?  His Bani tells Musalman to be ' mom dil' become a soft hearted person --  that is, he instructs them to be a good Muslim

To Brahmins he says that call urself Brahmin and superior only if you realise Brahm. No where he tells them to 'convert' .

We as Sikhs shouldn't believe in increasing numbers rather instilling ' values' but yes not everyone understands that..  as per ' his' game- hukam.

 

[Premi]

On 2/8/2020 at 5:59 PM, dalsingh101 said:

I agree, but how comes our people have failed to even remotely incorporate this truth into our social fabric. Everything you mention seems to be exactly what our society currently resolves around.

Unfortunately, it seems people of all faiths have in common in some way or another, those things that were mentioned 

On 2/8/2020 at 1:31 PM, Mooorakh said:

 

It's not the jaat ( caste), creed, colour, religion, daily routine/ rituals you follow, work you do for living, country, social status etc that makes you meet the Lord only the love for your Lord ot prema Bhakti that matters. 

 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, Premi said:

Unfortunately, it seems people of all faiths have in common in some way or another, those things that were mentioned 

I think this type of thinking just indirectly justifies everything. 

[Premi]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think this type of thinking just indirectly justifies everything. 

Don't know what you would suggest to counter this ? Obviously it is all anti-Gurmat. But in some form or other, all cultures have degenerate features, even if Western culture has a high level of being anti-discrimination, gender equality etc on the face of it, they have their own issues such as making women sexual objects and normalising sexual deviancy and being just as much material as Panjabis

The only thing I can clearly say is that if we all who call ourselves/identify as Sikh, were to become Khalsa and live by the advice of Dasam Patshah, then there really should be no reason to practice those negative things. Until we are all Khalsa, then we are still liable to falling back into Panjabi cultural practices and norms. 

 

[dalsingh101]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:39 AM, Premi said:

The only thing I can clearly say is that if we all who call ourselves/identify as Sikh, were to become Khalsa and live by the advice of Dasam Patshah, then there really should be no reason to practice those negative things. Until we are all Khalsa, then we are still liable to falling back into Panjabi cultural practices and norms. 

Realistically speaking. With a large group of people, it's setting strong cultural precedents and norms in the society. Guru ji actually achieved this, and it lasted for a few generations as evidenced by certain Persian accounts about how Singhs left women alone. 

We will never be a perfect society and like all people will have to deal with pedos, degenerates, selfish, destructive sociopaths etc.

Our own society has been firstly subtly (like when I was younger) and now outright explicitly promoting Panjabiism (especially certain casteists thinking) via multiple media including books, songs and increasingly movies. If we had a generation or two growing up with out this - we might see ourselves transform into a whole other society.

I'm Panjabi. I think Panjabi culture generally sucks. Sikh culture is infinitely superior. But we've had Waheguru knows how many people infilitrate our panth, who've never even believed in Sikhi over their previous culture, who've been playing havoc by promoting their horseshyte culture amongst us all.      

[dalsingh101]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:39 AM, Premi said:

Don't know what you would suggest to counter this ? Obviously it is all anti-Gurmat. But in some form or other, all cultures have degenerate features, even if Western culture has a high level of being anti-discrimination, gender equality etc on the face of it, they have their own issues such as making women sexual objects and normalising sexual deviancy and being just as much material as Panjabis

The only thing I can clearly say is that if we all who call ourselves/identify as Sikh, were to become Khalsa and live by the advice of Dasam Patshah, then there really should be no reason to practice those negative things. Until we are all Khalsa, then we are still liable to falling back into Panjabi cultural practices and norms. 

 

Thanks for posting this. 

I think we've all heard of this sakhi. It's just the first time that I've come across it with explicit reference to a certain caste 'pride'. It would be great to find the original Gurmukhi texts of this and scrutinise it. If it does explicitly mention jut pride, and most later retellings exclude this - it's just yet another example of a certain people hiding the truth to create some sort of false image of their community in relation to early Sikhi.    Something fudhoos are still doing to this day, more than 300 years later!

Would be nice to find explicit page or section numbers to try and chase them up?  

[paapiman]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:38 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Sikh culture is infinitely superior

Gurmat is THE best.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think we've all heard of this sakhi. It's just the first time that I've come across it with explicit reference to a certain caste 'pride'. It would be great to find the original Gurmukhi texts of this and scrutinise

@Premi

Bhai Dalla also later ran away and left Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). You guys probably already know this.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Premi]

6 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Thanks for posting this. 

I think we've all heard of this sakhi. It's just the first time that I've come across it with explicit reference to a certain caste 'pride'. It would be great to find the original Gurmukhi texts of this and scrutinise it. If it does explicitly mention jut pride, and most later retellings exclude this - it's just yet another example of a certain people hiding the truth to create some sort of false image of their community in relation to early Sikhi.    Something fudhoos are still doing to this day, more than 300 years later!

Would be nice to find explicit page or section numbers to try and chase them up?  

[Premi]

6 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Thanks for posting this. 

I think we've all heard of this sakhi. It's just the first time that I've come across it with explicit reference to a certain caste 'pride'. It would be great to find the original Gurmukhi texts of this and scrutinise it. If it does explicitly mention jut pride, and most later retellings exclude this - it's just yet another example of a certain people hiding the truth to create some sort of false image of their community in relation to early Sikhi.    Something fudhoos are still doing to this day, more than 300 years later!

Would be nice to find explicit page or section numbers to try and chase them up?  

somewhere in one of the audio files here, first half I think you can find out more but no page references,

 

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/listing.php?q=f&f=%2F04-Katha%2F12-Amrit+Bani+(12+CD+Set)%2F04-Ithaas+Paatshahi+Dasvin

16 minutes ago, paapiman said:

@Premi

Bhai Dalla also later ran away and left Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). You guys probably already know this.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[paapiman]

On 2/3/2022 at 6:39 AM, Premi said:

Don't know what you would suggest to counter this ? Obviously it is all anti-Gurmat. But in some form or other, all cultures have degenerate features, even if Western culture has a high level of being anti-discrimination, gender equality etc on the face of it, they have their own issues such as making women sexual objects and normalising sexual deviancy and being just as much material as Panjabis

The only thing I can clearly say is that if we all who call ourselves/identify as Sikh, were to become Khalsa and live by the advice of Dasam Patshah, then there really should be no reason to practice those negative things. Until we are all Khalsa, then we are still liable to falling back into Panjabi cultural practices and norms. 

 

@dalsingh101

Is this Episode in Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

@dalsingh101

Is this Episode in Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

No idea? Let me know if anyone finds it! 

[dalsingh101]

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

@Premi

Bhai Dalla also later ran away and left Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). You guys probably already know this.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I didn't know this? Where did you learn this from? 

[dalsingh101]

@Premi

Did you notice that post with the pie charts on the other forum showing how many HP juts converted to Sikh between 1920/1930 in Doaba and Majha? That they were sakhi sarwaars and stuff previously. 

That means we have hordes of people in our panth, who've only been Sikh for a 100 years. And even when they converted, it was probably for economic uplift rather than any firm belief in the dharam? It explains a lot!  

[Premi]

45 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

@Premi

Did you notice that post with the pie charts on the other forum showing how many HP juts converted to Sikh between 1920/1930 in Doaba and Majha? That they were sakhi sarwaars and stuff previously. 

That means we have hordes of people in our panth, who've only been Sikh for a 100 years. And even when they converted, it was probably for economic uplift rather than any firm belief in the dharam? It explains a lot!  

How much role did Singh Sabha movement play ?

And I think a lot of those Sakhi Sarwar followers were 'Sikh' more than any other identity, but had mixed beliefs maybe

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I didn't know this? Where did you learn this from? 

There is an episode in Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth about it.

Along with him, Bhai Ram Singh jee and Bhai Fateh SIngh jee (who were probably from Jatt backgrounds too) also abandoned Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

1 minute ago, paapiman said:

There is an episode in Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth about it.

Along with him, Bhai Ram Singh jee and Bhai Fateh SIngh jee (who were probably from Jatt backgrounds too) also abandoned Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Nice. If you ever find the original text, do share brother. 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Premi said:

And I think a lot of those Sakhi Sarwar followers were 'Sikh' more than any other identity, but had mixed beliefs maybe

Jatts and other people who followed Sakhi Sarwar were more like Muslims than Sikhs.

In Sri Pracheen Panth Prakash, it talks about clashes between Sultaniye Jatts and Sikh Jatts.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

Just now, paapiman said:

Jatts and other people who followed Sakhi Sarwar were more like Muslims than Sikhs.

In Sri Pracheen Panth Prakash, it talks about clashes between Sultaniye Jatts and Sikh Jatts.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Is that in the Kulwant Singh translation?