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Exculsive debate- Missionaries vs Sant Hari Singh Randhawale Surrey BC


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That lady could not have been using proper hygiene products.  I guess it depends on the women... Some do not lose much blood at all during this time just very very light and hygiene products would be more than adequate.  I guess if someone bleeds like a stuck pig during this time then either find proper protection ( or maybe better see a doctor to find ways to lessen the bleeding because that's not normal) the entire amount lost each month should only be a tiny bit... Like only two small spoonfuls worth spread over the entire period. Anyone who bleeds enough to completely soil a set of sheets in one sitting has a medical issue that needs to be dealt with.  Stat! Seriously it's called  menorhagia and it's a medical condition and it can be treated.  99% of women would never bleed that much! So please don't go thinking all menstruating women are potential flood gates waiting to break! Lol if I was bleeding that much I'd rather be in a hospital anyway than at the Gurdwara... someone can cut their finger and lose as much blood as is lost by a woman during her entire period under normal circumstances.

http://www.cemcor.ubc.ca/resources/very-heavy-menstrual-flow

 

ps blood is not dirty unless contaminated with bacteria etc. saliva by contrast is probably the most contaminated thing we expel on a continual basis... Like every time someone speaks.  If they accidentally sneeze ( let's say not from a known cold but something just hits their nose the wrong way) they then just expelled millions of particles with bacteria and mucus mixed with saliva.  How do we deal with it? People use a napkin to cover their mouth while at tabiya.  So barrier protection is obviously fine.... 

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Das, that is an excellent post. I agree with it 100%, could not have said it any better. You articulated and presented your points very well. Thanks for your time.

It is kinda the same sentiment when Guru Nanak says that Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhagde, same situation. And , yes, Ego is the real troublemaker.

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Das I guess this explains why when I can't understand how others cant see things how I do... While some go to every length to separate gender and dictate restrictions because of it, I my whole life have only seen God in everything and everyone.  I can't step back into the physical way of seeing things... And It wasn't something I had to strive for - I have been having spiritual experiences since I was child.  So it's just the way I automatically have always seen everything.  So I often can't understand how some want to segregate people, and focus so much on the physical, when the physical is illusion... I only want to focus on what's beyond the physical (because I have seen glimpses for myself).  

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Das I guess this explains why when I can't understand how others cant see things how I do... While some go to every length to separate gender and dictate restrictions because of it, I my whole life have only seen God in everything and everyone.  I can't step back into the physical way of seeing things... And It wasn't something I had to strive for - I have been having spiritual experiences since I was child.  So it's just the way I automatically have always seen everything.  So I often can't understand how some want to segregate people, and focus so much on the physical, when the physical is illusion... I only want to focus on what's beyond the physical (because I have seen glimpses for myself).  

​I'm posting this reply not to prove that you're not Spiritual, but just trying to show you the another aspect of what you call "I see God in everything and everyone". But please don't take it personally, its just somethings from personal experience.

"Seeing God in everything and everyone" is the second last stage on the Spiritual journey. At that stage one (I) cease to exist. One no longer tries to prove his/her point; One no longer tries to dump his/her thinking (point of view) on others. In other words, it is easier to say that "I see God in everything and everyone", but it is the practical stage. As long as you've certain like and/or dislikes or desires (even serving others) you're far from that stage and I'm sure that you too (like me) have strong likes/dislikes, I'm basing my this statement on your posts on this forum. So, please stop pretending and betraying yourself by thinking that you're seeing above the physical level. e.g Can you imagine that dead rotten Pig is laying in the street and you're very lovingly trying to eat it? You think beyond physical? Here my point is: It is the 'My version or point of view is correct' problem; sometimes its a good idea to think from another angle.

And don't take this rotten animal example to your heart and try things out; e.g there are some aghori sadhus who say that they do see God in everything and all opposites are illusion and therefore they perform some very wrong practices e.g eat disguising things including human flesh, feces. Their problem is the same that: They don't understand the real meaning but have started to act superficially. Again mind is at play.

Secondly, the experiences you're taking about since childhood are good, they are good as reward but at the same time they are NOT the real Spiritual experiences.........no pun intended but I don't want you to face the same problem many of us have faced. There are 2 aspects of this experiences:

1. They are good and should be treated as some reward but they in themselves are nothing, in-fact these are "The" most hard obstacles that one needs to cross.

2. Secondly, even the so-called ghosts (negative entities in lower planes) can Astral travel and can tell the past, present and future. They can also see other worlds, things like we do in our out-of-body travels. So, it proves that the experiences you're talking about does NOT hold that much Spiritual value as one seem them to attach. Just check if these experiences are holding you back to learn anything new. There is NO guarantee that whatsoever you're feeling, seeing, experiencing in these "experiences" are real. It is the game of Mind. He (Mind) is very clever, he can offer you something in which you're interested but his real intention is to hold you off from real stuff. 

These experiences are good as long as one learns from them and move forward.

From my personal experience, some time back I had these so-called experiences, at first I started to act like you that I know better as I've Spiritual experiences. But then I realized that these experiences are not taking me any further. So, eventually I lost interest in them. But then again, some Spiritual force/entity told me that even tough those experiences were from mind but those were good. In other words, I was told that it was good to have those experiences but one needs to take them in the limited positive sense and those experiences should act as catalyst that if I'm enjoying these so much, what the further stage holds for etc. They are good and bad at the same time depending upon how it is helping you.

At last, again, my intention is NOT to prove you wrong or NOT to say that your experiences are nothing......but just trying to warn (positively) you the hidden agendas in these experiences. We should stop thinking that these are somehow Spiritual experiences and but still should enjoy these experiences (they are good).

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Hmm but if we never acknowledge anything we experience, then we will NEVER progress, and then what was the point?  You could be on the brink of merging back with creator/creation and deny what you are experiencing is real, and thrust yourself right back into the illusion. This is why so many people who actually have spiritual experiences (by this I mean experiences which give understanding that you are more than your physical shell.. you are a spiritual being, beyond the physical realm). Many more people actually experience things, but simply slough them off a dreams. This is the difference between KNOWING you exist beyond your this physical life, without ANY doubts, or just believing that you do.  It's a huge difference.  And you are saying that everyone should just ignore the knowing and go back to just believing blindly when they have been given actual proof through experience.  There are stories btw about Guru Nanak Dev Ji astral projecting...

And forgive for also saying, but what you are suggesting is that anyone who is spiritually aware, would not try to impose their thinking on others... meaning we should never try to change the bad in the world? It almost sounds like a self fulfilling excuse to allow atrocities to continue! (you're dammed if you do dammed if you don't? If you fight atrocities, that means you aren't spiritual in your explanation, because you are 'imposing' your thoughts on those doing the atrocities, and in order to be considered spiritual, you can't intervene at all and just have to accept them and allow them to continue?) Including sexism, discrimination based on rich/poor, racism etc.  However, the Gurus actually worked to create change for the better. They led by example... they also imposed that thinking on others... not forcefully, but showed others the better way.  And we can also continue to do so now. Otherwise, nothing will change, and humans will continue to try and outdo each other and control each other, hurt each other. etc.  And in the context of the OP, your post really sounds like a self fulfilling excuse to tell women if they fight back against the men telling them they cant do this, cant do that, it must mean the women are not spiritually awakened... and if they were spiritually awakened they'd just accept the limitations the men imposed on them.  That way the men get to continue to dictate everything to them, AND make them feel guilty and spiritually inferior for just wanting to have equal opportunity.  

But anyway what I was referring to has nothing to do about my OBEs - I mean my day to day life, I see the beggar on the street and I see the same light in them as I do in the richest man.  I just cant separate them in how I see them.  I also acknowledge that THEY do not see this themselves.  So I know the "play" still goes on, but I have an inner feeling to subtly show them both or give them at least a nudge.  And if either one was in need, I wouldn't hesitate to help them.  In fact I volunteer as a medical responder and part of that function is helping everyone who is injured or ill, no matter if they are a gangster or a new mother, or an elder lady, or a rich lawyer, a criminal etc.  and because this volunteer work is in the community, I have actually interacted with a LOT of people over the years, who when I saw them were all at their worst, and needing help, bleeding, unconscious, broken bones, or maybe just puking their guts up because they drank too much at a concert, etc. but when I respond, I see them all as humans. All people, all worthy of being helped.  Their background doesn't matter, their career doesn't matter, their gender doesn't matter (unless I have to emergency childbirth!) I dont care how much money they have.  A rich man and a poor man bleed the same, and require the same treatment to make it stop.  A woman with a broken leg and a man with a broken leg require the same splint.  I treat them all - and it's all free.  And they are all the same in those moments of need at their worst.  I have been bled on, puked on, yelled at by drunk people, hit, had people genuinely crying and asking me to tell them it will be ok and all I can do is hold their hand talk them through it until the ambulance arrived (since we are not medical professionals we are not allowed to tell someone it will be ok or not so some creative wording comes into play).  This is what gave me the understanding I have, and why I see everyone all the same now.  Its how I came to see God in everyone... 

I really really encourage people to volunteer for this reason...

Believe me when I say I actually know that all is one.  It's not a game of mind or "not real".  There is a connectedness I can't explain... I can't put into words.  Yes I have had out of body experiences, but this is something separate.  

So after seeing everyone off all sections of society at their most vulnerable... I just cant see why to give some as more privilege than others when it comes to spiritual matters / religious duties.  Thats the one part of our lives where differences SHOULD be thrown out the window, and everyone should be treated equally and given the same chances. Nothing anyone writes here can convince me otherwise at this point.  But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and talk down to me, and call me whatever you want. 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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And in the context of the OP, your post really sounds like a self fulfilling excuse to tell women if they fight back against the men telling them they cant do this, cant do that, it must mean the women are not spiritually awakened... and if they were spiritually awakened they'd just accept the limitations the men imposed on them.  That way the men get to continue to dictate everything to them, AND make them feel guilty and spiritually inferior for just wanting to have equal opportunity.  

​very strange, I fail to understand where I pointed or suggested the above. I guess you are so attached with Men vs Women that you fail to understand the core what the other person is saying. Also, I did NOT say, stop enjoying the experiences, I just suggested to use them for the further enhancement and they in themselves are not real, just use them as a bridge.

But anyways, what I had to say, I've already said that. Nothing more to say. It's your Mind, your Life and free-will, you CHOOSE what you want to do.

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I'm sure she is not being fooled or being led into opposite direction of truth......She is emphasizing her own thought process and her certainty that she believes and understands the universal consciousness and not about her experiences of verifying other realms or existence of eternal soul.

​I'm not saying that she is being led to opposite direction, she is sticking so much with equality that she fails to comprehend what other person is referring to. I was just trying to say to continue her path as she is doing but avoiding the pitfalls by clinging to certain so-called Equality ideas. in this particular she fails to understand that it is NOT the matter of Man vs Women, it is just the matter of Respect as per my original reply.

One more thing, Mind does NOT always led us to opposite directions, it sometimes let us cling to a certain concept that we're so deep within that particular theme that we forgot to realize that we've to go further.

das 

Edited by das
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​I'm not saying that she is being led to opposite direction, she is sticking so much with equality that she fails to comprehend what other person is referring to. I was just trying to say to continue her path as she is doing but avoiding the pitfalls by clinging to certain so-called Equality ideas. in this particular she fails to understand that it is NOT the matter of Man vs Women, it is just the matter of Respect as per my original reply.

One more thing, Mind does NOT always led us to opposite directions, it sometimes let us cling to a certain concept that we're so deep within that particular theme that we forgot to realize that we've to go further.

das 

​I agree das.. I know that you were warning about getting stuck at 'surface' levels.

Mind can lead us the wrong way but only if we let it run the show.

We have a Soul/atma and Mind.,,,correct ?................I'm understanding that if we let Mind run the show over the soul, then---->>going towards Man-mat, but if we let the atma be the master over the mind instead(which is why simran is about stilling and controlling this charging mind)..--->>towards walking in pure hukam and gur-mat.

 

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Of course the experiences are not real... Because all that exists is the ONE - everything else occurs as pure frequency vibration in a medium. That medium is one universal consciousness from which everything arises.  But the experiences give us validation that there is more than this physical world and we need this as humans... Because no amount of blind faith can ever be the same as knowing. So for us trapped in this physical world, proof that something exists beyond it opens the door.  If something exists beyond it then something must exist beyond that etc. it might not show the absolute truth as in the only thing which actually exists is God... But it does show us at least that there is more than the physical world. And indirectly it shows us that the part of us which is real... The experiencer... The doer... Exists outside of and Surpasses these realities (physical, astral, etheric, atmic etc) and does not die. 

Satkirin ( on mobile and it crashes if I log in)

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How do we know if we're the Mind is running the show or Atma is running it? Mind is extremely subtle, without it, it is NOT possible to survive.

If one is trying to go towards Atma by doing Simran, then the positive forces or your Guru does help you to focus on Atma but still the owner is still the Mind. If you read the experiences of real Brahmgyani, then it would be clear that Mind does have the capability to mimic one's Guru. We might think that we are getting the instructions from our Guru or Atma but in reality it is still the illusion of Mind.

Let me share one of my experiences: Normally, when I'm in some trouble or there is some decision that I cannot make, then I normally do Ardas and then pick a Parchi (Yes/No written on paper and folded). Most of the time I do get the proper signals from Atma or good forces or say from the Middle path, but there were many cases where I was shown certain signals, thoughts, and other things which led me to very wrong directions (but still not going opposite). It was later that I learnt that it was the wrong forces (Mind's play) which led me to wrong direction. Then I asked, why I was NOT warned before the fact and the answer came Free-Will and a chance to learn something.

I was told the following technique using which one could differentiate between the thought coming from within Atma or Mind: "The thoughts which came in the back of mind for a split second and there is NO quickness is involved is definitely coming from Atma, but whenever the thought is coming continuously and with haste then is definitely coming from Mind".

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das, you can distinguish which thoughts are from atma and which are from Mind.

The mind has to be conquered before it can find it's home. I can't understand how I could get to mool pachan the jyot saroop before 'mann jitey jagjeet''.. .. Maybe you can do it without,///but this is the only attempt I know.

I spoke about "linear/sequential thoughts" and "sudden cluster" thoughts that arise and how I found that with increased simran I was getting more cluster thoughts.

Sequential thoughts come from the mind racing from one image to another..and there is always some link. Whereas clustered thoughts just arrive completely at random and sometimes they may even be a sudden answer to any question (completely unrelated to knowledge of any sort)

I'm not going to go into detail or throw myself into this topic at the moment because I seriously need all my energy for my person spirituality at the stages I'm facing.

This will be my last post on this topic.

 

 

Edited by Lucky
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The mind has to be conquered before it can find it's home. I can't understand how I could get to mool pachan the jyot saroop before 'mann jitey jagjeet''.. .. Maybe you can do it without,///but this is the only attempt I know.

​Thanks for your inputs Lucky bhaji. It seems like either I failed to deliver my thinking on paper or you misunderstood me. Basically, whatever you mentioned in your last post, I agree with it 100%.

So, here is my final attempt (on this topic) in regards to Atma and Mind:

  • Yes, Mind needs to be conquered before one finds the real ghar (which is beyond all the realms, even beyond the Shabad).
  • Yes, we can distinguish the thoughts which are coming from Atma vs Mind. It's a skill that could be refined by more and more Simran and/or Kirpa.
  • Yes, the sequential thoughts goes by the images from one to another. And if we're carefull enough, we can notice the source. Here the main concern is not to attach yourself to the process, just watch without being attached.

The thing where I don't agree with some people who claim that if they are hearing some sounds or getting some Real experiences or able to still their minds for some time or can see the past/present/future; or say they are hearing Anhad shabad; then they claim that they have conquered the mind (temporarily).

That's where I don't agree. They definitely have raised their consciousness to high level which in itself is achievement but they still have NOT conquered their mind. Controlling the mind for some time with the help of Simran/Kirpa is different from Conquering the mind. Basically, if you happen to have Guru then you know that you're in middle path which is still under the Control of Mind/Kaal but somehow the middle path is somewhat (not fully) shielded from the influences of Mind. Mind can still peek in but Guru helps. It is something like a person with one leg starts to walk using clutches and then claims that he/she has learnt to walk. No, it is the clutches that is helping him to walk i.e it is the Kirpa of Guru or say power of Naam Simran using which we're experiencing those things. So, a middle path can hold any number of physical beings, astral beings, causal beings. They work as a group by helping the lower in the middle path, but still operating under the world being owned by Mind.

e.g Let's say we built a container with vacuum inside and we start to feel that we're outside the domain/control of Mind. Then it is our limited sense, yes, we're able to build a container which in itself is big achievement but thinking that we conquered the air/mind is wrong. We still we're under the control of the owner (outside air/mind).

e.g Another example is: Mind and breath work side by side.  By stilling the breath, Mind could be made still and vice-versa. Again here we can either still the mind and/or breath but temporarily (may be couple of yugs) but still we are within the Control/Domain of Mind. Something like vacuum.

When I said "Survival is not possible without Mind."......I meant that this very current body is the consequence of Prarabdha karam (subset of Sanchita karma); Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. With Simran and Bhagti one can destroy all the previous total collection of Sanchit karma but Prarabdha is still there as the body is still present. As soon as Prarabdha karma ends, the physical body dies. And this karma thing belong to Laws as defined by Mind/Kaal. Even Avatars have to complete Prarabdha karma, till in body they get Videh mukt. They have really Conquered the Mind and they are really dictating the Mind; for them Mind cannot run faster than the Atma as Atma is everywhere.

These days, I've noticed that by reading the very hard earned experiences of Maha-purashs or Saints, we start doing hard work and then get experiences and then relate those lower level experiences with Brahmgyanis experiences. The combination of Mind and Maya is very hard to Conquer.

Again, the whole point of this post "Atma vs Mind" was to break the ego-feeling that if we've certain expereiences, sound etc., then our thinking is always correct. Yes, we might be on the certain level, but then Mind let us cling to that certain thought/movement and thus delaying the further progress. Mind has its own defence mechansims: If it can divert someone easily against their destination, then it will do it. But if the person is of somewhat higher level, then Mind uses more subtle defense like: it would force us to cling to certain idea (however good/spiritual that idea may be), or it will betray us thinking that we've learnt some technique to control the mind whereas the truth is that Mind has changed gears as per the person's individual Spiritual stage.

So, nothing more on this topic.

 ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥        
ਛਡਾਇ ਲੀਓ ਮਹਾ ਬਲੀ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੇ ਚਰਨ ਪਰਾਤਿ ॥        
ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਮਨ ਮੰਤਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਨ ਕਤਹੂ ਜਾਤਿ ॥੧॥        
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥        
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਉ ਭਈ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਗਾਤਿ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥        
ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੀ ਰਾਖੀ ਪਾਤਿ ॥        
ਨਾਨਕ ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪਨੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਓ ਦਿਨ ਰਾਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੦॥੪੧॥     

 

Edited by das
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  • SAadmin unfeatured this topic
  • 2 years later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/14/2015 at 9:19 PM, CdnSikhGirl said:

The difference being that semen is actually caused by impure thoughts... (sexual) while menstruation is unable to be controlled.  It's not an accident, it's not a disease, it's not dirty.  It's a necessary step for fertility.     

The above statement (in bold) is not completely true. Semen can be released by a male body via nocturnal emissions (which cannot be controlled always) without having any sexual thoughts at all. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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