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Exculsive debate- Missionaries vs Sant Hari Singh Randhawale Surrey BC

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It will take sometime for our community's collective consciousness to rise above from pendu/tribalism and go back to its puratan gursikh standards. This is from soraj parkash granth:

 

Sakhi from Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji time where Guru maharaj gave updesh to pandits on discussion/debates and what's allowed for Gursikhs.

Four types of Conversations/discussion-

1) Heth - Where you listen to someone because you know they have more kamai and more knowledge than you. You are humble when listening. This also applies to school. 

2) Vaadha - Where you actually do your research and share to positively add to a conversation constructively. Even if there is disagreement, you should not hurt another's feelings or prove that you are better. 

3) Jalapa - Where you say stuff to put the other down. Try to make yourself look good. 

4) Vitaardha - Where you keep talking and don't listen to anyone else (the majority of us). 

*** This is from a sakhi where some pundits asked Guru Hargobind Ji what type of conversations are allowed. Guru Hargobind Ji said a Gursikh only takes part in the first 2 types of conversations. ***

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Ok few key points here regarding this whole first question which seems like a central point of debate:

1. It's been unfortunate, good portion of debate between males was about gurbani interpertation impurity of women and women not allowing maharaj seva during her period , yet no feedback was taken from woman point of view and nor someone even bother- bought up point in the debate there are many enough innovative products out there in western countries which mitigate any blood leakage on outside body/skin or under garments.

2. Sant Hari Singh ji was more interested in upholding traditional view of not letting women doing seva while women is on menstrual cycle than even taking into consideration- wider aspects of gurmat such as subtlety of nirgun-sargun, reading whole shabad or even taken into consideration - even western female menstrual innovation products which are so advanced that even promises women using their products can even swim in the public swimming pool mitigating any hygienic issues .!!! You really think this products would be even allowed to make such a dire claim of women can use their products in swimming pool if all hygienic requirements are not met..there would be big uproar from environmentalist, health and safety groups in western countries

3. Gurbani is Gurbani, if woman during menstrual cycle can handle with truth ,care, devotion and love- gutka, pothi without any question of impure than why not with sri guru granth sahib ji?  Pure intentions, sharda-devotion, love trumphs all...there are plenty of examples where love trumped all external situations, outlook and also hows that reconcile with ek jot advait - non dual principle sidhant of Gurmat. Why only sargun satkar of maharaj is been talked about while totally ignoring absolute principle-  pervading Satguru which is in all of us? Talk should be together with sargun and nirgun aspect of satguru. This seem like short sighted discussion as its ignores absolute principle. 

Sant hari singh ji rigid rule or bent justification (without any exceptions/without any factors/contexualization) regarding not allowing woman do maharaj seva during her period can be easily debunked by sant singh maskeen viakhiya of full shabad as it was shown as guru maharaj is talking about traditions during that time, absolute principle-advait sidhant of gurmat and also love principle of seeker who is oblivious for external differences and drenched in love for maharaj do its darshan and seva. For me its quite simple, i take sri guru granth sahib ji as embodiment sargun saroop of all ten guru's if women comes to maharaj with love and devotion regardless of menstrual cycle or not- do seva of maharaj..maharaj would allow it because at that point maharaj dristhi kaun-perception towards seeker would have been different as it would be from higher reality perspective- higher avastha-state, seen from higher reality- unconditional love.

Maharaj would look at intentions of individual-case by case basis -may allow or disallow seva based on individual case rather than precedence. This is key here, there is no such precedence in gurbani/gurmat which says- women cannot do seva of maharaj while in menstrual cycle, its been made into precedence by male patriarchy indic society/traditions.

4. As they say, men have it easy-  there are plenty of male attributed beadhi issues (unnatural inflicted wounds cut on hand, band aids) with sri guru granth sahib ji, why focus on  society perceived women as weak-women natural tendency of discharge of blood during menstrual cycle which is been totally addressed by western innovative products.

5. Sant hari singh ji was pretty defensive on questions understandably so as he is been under constant vicious attacks from missionaries. So he had to set the record or put a stop on this witch haunt from missionaries. In my opinion doing so it appears it has overshadow his pure cognitive intuitive perception- bibek/full depth review (all factors- unconditional love/devotion, sargun-nirgun satkar, western innovative products) into deeper issue of seeing the central question of women period and sri guru granth sahib seva. So his answer to his first question was quite out of depth.

6. Other answers were perfectly balanced and precise up to the point.

7. I like the moderator but he was bit too harsh on camera man and few innocent sikhs from both sides, who just raise the hand very first time got shot down. It was way too many people. One on one with moderator would have been better.

 

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Good observations here but please remind us - if there is maryada, or have any panthic discussion was done or enforcement was done against male with bandaid cuts or male with flu like symptoms doing maharaj seva.

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3rd, Even with sanitary pads etc, it still is coming out of the body. Similarly, if a man has to wear an adult diaper for incontinence etc, then he is also not able to sit in tabiya. 

 

 

​Use tampons / cups etc that actually work INSIDE the body. That way nothing comes out at all until the product is removed.  Better yet, if one is not planning on children, if periods are such an impure thing, then just take the birth control that stops menstrual cycles completely.  He is right... that if a product is safe enough to prevent leaks in a swimming pool without any hygiene issues, then I doubt anything would ever happen while doing seva.  An adult diaper is worn on the outside... we are talking about products that women wear on the INSIDE.  SO nothing even makes it out of the body till its removed.  *sorry to be kind of blunt*

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There is no enforcement that I'm aware of in any case, simply b/c of the impracticality (and occasionally, sheer invasiveness i guess) of checking people when it should be a common sense thing.

s

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​Use tampons / cups etc that actually work INSIDE the body. That way nothing comes out at all until the product is removed.  Better yet, if one is not planning on children, if periods are such an impure thing, then just take the birth control that stops menstrual cycles completely.  He is right... that if a product is safe enough to prevent leaks in a swimming pool without any hygiene issues, then I doubt anything would ever happen while doing seva.  An adult diaper is worn on the outside... we are talking about products that women wear on the INSIDE.  SO nothing even makes it out of the body till its removed.  *sorry to be kind of blunt*

Good point regarding use of tampons, I don’t recall those being mentioned during the discussion. 

 

 

I sense some hurt in your post when you mention “if periods are such an impure thing”… 

I hope that’s not the case as it’s not an anti-female stance as the same rules apply to men.  When men have what’s referred to as nightfall / night emission / wet dream then they also have to do kesh isnhnaan before doing the seva. 

 

 

In the end, most of this seems to be a big drama created mostly by missionary types who have been trying to engineer baba hari singh’s downfall for quite a few years. He mentions that these guys are dragging up comments made in his katha from many many years ago, and yet they pick now to cause a fuss. Some average sangat get caught up in the middle as they are unaware of this behind the scenes drama that’s happening.

 

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The difference being that semen is actually caused by impure thoughts... (sexual) while menstruation is unable to be controlled.  It's not an accident, it's not a disease, it's not dirty.  It's a necessary step for fertility.  

Hygiene is one thing, and if hygiene is truly the issue, then as I said, there are products to deal with it.  However there is a difference between something being a hygiene issue and being 'impure' in a spiritual sense.  He said outright... "impure".  Big difference.  

Anyway as long as someone remains clean, and uses proper hygiene products, and washes their hands etc. I see no issue.  That's what soap and water are for.   

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Here is sant singh maskeen katha on the gurbani quote below: https://www.facebook.com/GurShabadVichar/videos/604265723010033/ which was discussed greatly in the debate above:

I m sorry but missionary argument in the debate using sant singh maskeen interpretation of gurbani tuk below is just as valid makes more sense personally for me- from overall sidhant of gurmat than relative use of this gurbani tuk by sant hari singh ji to upheld maryada component.

For benefit of others who does not understand punjabi - what sant singh maskeen is saying Satguru nanak dev ji is not calling women impure in this tuk above during period, satguru ji is mentioning traditions of that time in india/even now at some parts in india, using it as central theme of shabad to show gurmat view to such people following those traditions as mentioned in the last line of gurbani line from same asa di var (infact its on ang-472) that to me is more consistent with asa di var gurbani tuk- page 473

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥ सो किउ मंदा आखीऐ जितु जमहि राजान ॥ 
So ki▫o manḏā ākẖī▫ai jiṯ jamėh rājān. 
So why call her bad? From her, kings are born

 

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
First Mehl:
ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥
As a woman has her periods, month after month,
ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.
ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥
They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies.
ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

 

I would say, bhai vir singh, sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale along with prof sahib singh  is not really wrong either but rather its also rights in its relative context (overall bodily impurity context-maya context) but the problem here is   relative (Sargun) and absolute context  (Nirgun) of Gurbani has to be looked at together in overall gurbani interpretation not separately or one way or other way so all different interpretations (different aspects of divine/absolute view-nirgun arths/sargun-relative maya context) can be properly reconciled with one another.

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Is this why some sects do not allow women to be Granthi? Because in their minds, the woman should not sit in tabiya during this time, hence she would not be able to fulfull her duties all month long as Granthi?  See, this is where that thinking starts to discriminate. Women become seen as incapable of doing seva consistently, and as such are seen as inferior to men.  This thinking is Muslim and Hindu.  Cleanliness (in a hygiene sense) is not the same thing as spiritual purity.  And they should never be seen to be the same thing. Also, you are all still equating menstruation with disease, sickness (vomit/feces), or impure thoughts (semen). But menstruation is none of those things. It's not a disease, it's not a sickness, it's not caused by impure thoughts.  It's a natural biological process that is necessary to propagate the species.  

So is the issue here cleanliness / hygiene? If so, wash properly and use hygiene products (internal ones if that satisfies those who don't want anything to 'come out' at all) Then there is no chance of anything leaking and problem solved! 

Or is the ossue that it's seen as ruitally / spiritually impure?  As in, the woman is being cursed spiritually or something and is further away from God?  

Because I can't see how a normal biological function given by God can be seen as 'impure' in a spiritual sense at all.  And if its only a hygiene issue, then proper hygiene products should resolve the issue.  So why does it keep coming back up? 

And WHY IS IT ALWAYS MEN (who have little to no idea about these things) WHO GET TO DECIDE WOMEN'S FATE REGARDING THESE THINGS????? 

N3O: My take on that shabad is that it is saying that purity is not about the physical...that doing all these ritual cleansings etc, are not what purify someone, only those who are pure are those who keep Waheguru in their minds.  Its not saying that women are impure at all.  It actually seems to be chastizing those who would say that women are impure because of periods.... almost as a response like:  You say that women are impure because of this, but just as they have their periods each month so does the falseness dwell in your mouth. You can not become pure by merely washing the physical body. You can only be pure if you focus on God.

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This discussion should be framed in the overall context that to do seva is a privilege, and not a right. 

Too many make everything into a right these days.

 

If either a man or woman go # 2 they have to wash before sitting in tabiya. If somehow, someway, it was only women that had to go #2, then the feminists would say that it is wrong to force women to wash before sitting at tabiya. Why? Truth is modern feminism has twisted peoples minds so that if some kind of gandhgi happens only to a woman, it is all of a sudden paviter in their minds! But if this same gandhgi happened to both genders, then they would accept that it is in fact apavitter. Why are women so special that their gandghi is pavitter, but a males is not?

 

2nd point, All sorts of gandhgi come from the body, but I think we can accept that some kinds are worse than others. 

 

3rd, Even with sanitary pads etc, it still is coming out of the body. Similarly, if a man has to wear an adult diaper for incontinence etc, then he is also not able to sit in tabiya. 

 

No double standard here. Just double minded thinking that elevates the female form higher than the male form.

​Good points bro. It is common sense. What kind of ordinary person (male or female) will ever think of doing seva of Satguru jee's saroop, while bleeding. 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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And WHY IS IT ALWAYS MEN (who have little to no idea about these things) WHO GET TO DECIDE WOMEN'S FATE REGARDING THESE THINGS????? 

 

I have noticed that too, its kinda unfortunate no women comes fwd and set the record straight, say politely its women issue, let women deal with it or discuss it.

 

N3O: My take on that shabad is that it is saying that purity is not about the physical...that doing all these ritual cleansings etc, are not what purify someone, only those who are pure are those who keep Waheguru in their minds.  Its not saying that women are impure at all.  It actually seems to be chastizing those who would say that women are impure because of periods.... almost as a response like:  You say that women are impure because of this, but just as they have their periods each month so does the falseness dwell in your mouth. You can not become pure by merely washing the physical body. You can only be pure if you focus on God.

Thats my understanding of shabad as well (its not coincidence this shabad is in ang-472- same asa di var which says why call woman bad where kings are born -right after ang-473) and is as well since sant singh maskeen pointed out in the katha, Guru maharaj is talking about traditions on those times and giving gurmat view on these type of traditions. 

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Because I can't see how a normal biological function given by God can be seen as 'impure' in a spiritual sense at all.  And if its only a hygiene issue, then proper hygiene products should resolve the issue.  So why does it keep coming back up? 
 

To clarify what they are saying, something can be morally unclean or physically unclean or both. In this case, they are absolutely not saying it is morally unclean, just physically. 

 

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Just to add, ...as I've mentioned about  channeling sexual energies into spiritual energies on a couple of other threads earlier......

We can at many issues when considering the energies involved.

In the case of women's monthly, ..a significant amount of subtle energy and physical energy gets channeled to the lower down areas. During these menstruating days, many yoga asanas aren't advised along with kriyas like "breath of fire".......At this time, the women's avastha becomes at a sort of standpoint or may even descend due to overriding from other psychological  energies involved.

It's only reasonable and understandable that spiritual activities may not be to optimum at this time.......this is nature, ..the laws of the universe.

 

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Just to add, ...as I've mentioned about  channeling sexual energies into spiritual energies on a couple of other threads earlier......

We can at many issues when considering the energies involved.

In the case of women's monthly, ..a significant amount of subtle energy and physical energy gets channeled to the lower down areas. During these menstruating days, many yoga asanas aren't advised along with kriyas like "breath of fire".......At this time, the women's avastha becomes at a sort of standpoint or may even descend due to overriding from other psychological  energies involved.

It's only reasonable and understandable that spiritual activities may not be to optimum at this time.......this is nature, ..the laws of the universe.

 

​Amazing information paaji.

This just proves, how scientifically advanced, Gurmat is. There is also scientific reasoning behind, why women should not be in Panj Pyaray.

Bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

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