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5 Pyare: selected by the Guru?


SikhKhoj

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I have always had troubles with the currently popular theory that the Guru asked for five heads, there being a pin drop silence and no one willing to come till the Guru made subsequent calls with 5 Sikhs following hesitatingly.

There were many wars before the Pahul ceremony, I find it hard to believe that people from the Sangat were afraid at Gurus call to offer their heads. Some people have gone to the extent of saying: 'there are not many true Sikhs at any given time, look at 1699, only 5 Sikhs rose to give up their lives'. I have heard it from kathavachaks and people on forums. But why do we ignore that hundreds had given their lives prior to 1699 both in battles and in jails, both pre Guru Gobind Rai and during Guru Gobind Rais life?

Could it be that they were selected by the Guru?

Panth Parkash of Rattan Singh Bhangu, altough not authentic for every account, does say that the Guru selected 5 youth of 5 different castes.

Discuss.

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Khalsa ceremony itself is quite symbolic for surrender, amrit/grace-immortality, its ceremony of soul transmission/realization/transformation, unconditional love for Guru. However, one cannot do full surrender by with mein(ego),  one has to be literally drawn as moth is drawn to flame and ultimately dies in flame just like one is drawn to vahiguru ultimately dies in fire of bhramgyan. Panj pyares were neddles, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was mass magnet radiating itself - analogy, they were drawn to it as intrinsic pull towards Guru via mysterious power (again of eternal sri guru gobind singh ji) so in that case- panj pyares were selected by Guru not the other way around. So ultimately panj pyares, khalsa amrit sanchar was expression of sri guru gobind singh ji himself -nirgun-sargun saroop

I meant everything is in hakum as per gurbani as there is no such thing as free will- you can will what you want but you cannot will what you will.

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The first reference to the story of panj pyare and the call for heads is in Kuer Singh's Gurbilas Patshahi 10 from 1751. If I remember correctly it is also mentioned in the Bansavalinama. I can't remember how the storyline goes in the Mahima Prakash nor the Sau Sakhi.

 The sakhi is again repeated in Suraj Prakash Granth of 1843

Edited by amardeep
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lol @ so called brahmgyanis having visions and knowing that some Bhagats came back, some didn't. Same way they predicted the end of world many times and also failed predictions of Bhindranwale being alive. Same way Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwala didn't know that Guru Har Rai had one marriage nor did he know that Quran was not a Vedic Granth unlike he read in Bansawlinama. 

I know what the sources say Amardeep. What do you think?

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Nothing to discuss here, what you heard is right. Giving heads in battle is one thing and responding to demand of heads all of sudden in diwan is another thing.

​This is what i would go with.

If we have accounts, historical ones, saying Panj Pyare were selected we do need a discussion.

Giving your life for the Guru is the same, whether its while being executed, on the battlefield or a divan. A warrior is tyar bar tyar 24/7 not only during war.

​if a warrior has come to a religious gathering he can still be taken aback by a sudden call for a head. I don't know what you vision of tyar bar tyar is but i don't think it applies here. Tyar bar tyar means ready for battle but it doesn't mean in any way whatsoever that a warrior can't be taken by surprise.

Sikhs had been gathering at Vaisakhi for many years before this historic one.

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Panth Parkash of Rattan Singh Bhangu, altough not authentic for every account, does say that the Guru selected 5 youth of 5 different castes.

​Bhangu says " Panj Bhujangi lae uthaie" The english translation is given as "By selecting 5 youths..."

I would say "uthaie " here is more like "raised" which is the correct word for uthaie.

"He raised 5 youths of different varnas..."

The english translation of Panth Parkash is a bit weak in places.  (as is sikhi to the max )

"Selected" definitely seems to be out of place here.

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Have you read puratan accounts? Some of them describe the Panj Pyare as meek, darpok (indirectly, not directly ofcourse) and some of them say: 'ive never held a sword in my life'. But lateron this view has been challenged by Lala Daulat Rai amongst others.

Tyar bar tyar means ready 24/7. Otherwise remove kirpan when not in battle? You can't, because there can be such situations at any given time. Granths like Prem Sumarg and rehatnamas (however unauthentic they may be) lay much emphasis on keeping shaster and kachehra on you at all times - sign of being tyar bar tyar. 

Its just about extrapolating tyar bar tyar concept to Gurus darbar. 

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Have you read puratan accounts? Some of them describe the Panj Pyare as meek, darpok (indirectly, not directly ofcourse) and some of them say: 'ive never held a sword in my life'. But lateron this view has been challenged by Lala Daulat Rai amongst others.

​I think the focus on writing that is more on AMRIT raising from from meekness darpokta to a Khalsa, rather than a Sikh being such and such.

Tyar bar tyar means ready 24/7. Otherwise remove kirpan when not in battle? You can't, because there can be such situations at any given time. Granths like Prem Sumarg and rehatnamas (however unauthentic they may be) lay much emphasis on keeping shaster and kachehra on you at all times - sign of being tyar bar tyar. 

​tyar bar tyar means ready for everything. but that doesnt mean that  a person cannot be taken by surprise. i have already written this above. I hope you understand it this time.

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I don't care what the so called objective is, it doesn't seem feasible historically as most Sikhs had fought several battles pre 1699 too. 

And there is a difference between 'taken by surprise' and 'being afraid and not coming forward' as many people claim.

Edited by SikhKhoj
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​Bhangu says " Panj Bhujangi lae uthaie" The english translation is given as "By selecting 5 youths..."

I would say "uthaie " here is more like "raised" which is the correct word for uthaie.

"He raised 5 youths of different varnas..."

The english translation of Panth Parkash is a bit weak in places.  (as is sikhi to the max )

"Selected" definitely seems to be out of place here.

First of all the 'call for heads' is not mentioned in there. Secondly don't try to twist historical sources, learn to read the full context before taking one line out of context. A few lines before your quote, Bhangu says:

"keeyai bhujangi chaant panj panje jaat ginaye"

Chaant means selection. Your Punjabi skills might be bad but even today we say 'police di bharti layi chantti' ('selection' to enlist for police job)

I know you don't like me, I don't like you either but research properly before debating me atleast, just don't do it for the sake of it, oye chatangea.

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 And there is a difference between 'taken by surprise' and 'being afraid and not coming forward' as many people claim.

​Maybe there is, but there's also a difference between tyar bar tyat and being taken by surprise.

 A few lines before your quote, Bhangu says:

"keeyai bhujangi chaant panj panje jaat ginaye"

Chaant means selection. Your Punjabi skills might be bad but even today we say 'police di bharti layi chantti' ('selection' to enlist for police job)

​chaant also means to separate. In panjabi we use chon and chun for selection assuming you come from the same region of panjab as me. I will look more into this anyway.

 

 
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