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Lineages of 19th century Sikh scholars


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Gurfateh

 

I have come across an interesting pothi of a Guru Granth Sahib commentary from 19th Century. On the first page of the granth it has the lineage of the writer going back to Guru Gobind Singh.

 

I have some questions in regards to the text:

Do you read it as a linear lineage (ie X taught Y who taught Z who taught Y) or do you read it as "X taught Y,Z and E. E taught L, F and G. Z taught I,O and P" etc. etc.

 

What I find interesting in this pothi is that it mentions Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Gurbaksh Singh, Bhai Surat Singh and Giani Sant Singh whom the present day Taksalis claim their lineages back to. However, the sequence is not correct if it is read as a linear lineage. There are other 18th and 19th Century writings however that claim a direct lineageship between the aforementioned Taksali jathedars.

 

How to make sense of this pothi?

 

 

11393261_1057411420959065_1915944278231715938_n.jpg

Edited by amardeep
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From reading the text, most probably:

"X taught Y,Z and E. E taught L, F and G. Z taught I,O and P" etc. etc.

Also, if this book was written (lets assume) in 1850, that is about 150 years after Guru Gobind Singh. Having 14 teacher-student interactions seems less plausible than about 9 in that span of time. Again, I am saying 'seems' so nothing concrete here.

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BTW, since you don't reply on the misl topic anymore; Dr Trilochan Singh gives 1727 as date of Kesar Singhs gurpranali.

Also Sukha Singh was of Patna thus Misls or no Misls have no effect on his literary capacities and contributions, hence you should edit out the reference to him if you want to be completely right.

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Gurfateh

 

I have come across an interesting pothi of a Guru Granth Sahib commentary from 19th Century. On the first page of the granth it has the lineage of the writer going back to Guru Gobind Singh.

 

I have some questions in regards to the text:

Do you read it as a linear lineage (ie X taught Y who taught Z who taught Y) or do you read it as "X taught Y,Z and E. E taught L, F and G. Z taught I,O and P" etc. etc.

 

What I find interesting in this pothi is that it mentions Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Gurbaksh Singh, Bhai Surat Singh and Giani Sant Singh whom the present day Taksalis claim their lineages back to. However, the sequence is not correct if it is read as a linear lineage. There are other 18th and 19th Century writings however that claim a direct lineageship between the aforementioned Taksali jathedars.

 

How to make sense of this pothi?

 

 

11393261_1057411420959065_1915944278231715938_n.jpg

​Bro, it is making complete sense.

Gyani Kaul Singh jee was a student of Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee (student of Srimaan Shaheed 108 Baba Mani Singh jee Maharaaj), while Gyani Jassa Singh jee was a student of Gyani Kaul Singh jee.

I will try to post the lineage, which is presented in Amir Bhandar teeka. It is almost the same.

Who is the author of the above commentary?

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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On 6/14/2015, 8:49:01, amardeep said:

Is it possible anyhow to confirm the current day Damdami Taksal lineage using the above text?

The current day goes:

Bhai Mani Singh/Baba Deep SIngh

Baba Gurbaksh Singh

Giani Surat Singh

Giani Gurdas SIngh

Giani Sant Singh

Gyani Daya SIngh jee

Gyani Bhagwaan Singh jee

Gyani Harnaam Singh jee

Gyani Bishan Singh jee

Gyani Sundar Singh jee

Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee

Gyani Kartaar Singh jee

Gyani Jarnail Singh jee

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Let's also bear in mind that Panjabis are notorious for trying to big themselves up by associating themselves to 'grand lineages'. 

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^ That. Like Kesar Singh who CHANGED the first Amrit Sanchar ceremony narration to fit in his grandfather putting patasey in Khande di Pahul. And that is an early, 1769 source ;)

Or how several authors have linked historical figures to their own got (gotra) to big up their communities (RE: discussion on Mani Singh Shaheed).

Instead of getting excited like a nav viahio tivi try to analyse the source

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excited like a nav viahio tivi 

 

lol!

Did u mean?

 navi viahio tivi 

Edited by dalsingh101
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Paapiman : Thanks I will try and look further in to it in the steek.

Dalsingh: True. No one is saying to go for the texts at face value but it is interesting that certain names are mentioned. It means there was fame and prestige to these SInghs since later generations wanted to be associated with them. For this reason alone it is worthy of being looked further into: Who were these men, did they write anything? Who were their students? etc.

 

Unlike Sikhkhoj who said he reads granths to look for errors in them, I look at Granths to see what they reveal about the time they were written in, the generation previous to it, details of earlier happenings etc. Im not interested in finding lies and errors.

 

In any case, even if the above text has a forged lineage it still talks about famous and not so famous scholars of Sikh history - what was the outcome of their students? Their students most likely produced some writings in later generations, - where are all these?

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You can use 'nav viahiyo' Dal. Nav janmi, nav viahiyo etc

​Does it mean the same as 'navi' as in 'new'?

 

 

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Now is a good time to reiterate a point I made when reviewing some of you previous work Amardeep. This thing about 'lineages' in Panjabi society is a slippery slope. Our people are notorious for bigging themselves in this way when little real proof exists, or directly contradicting information exists. Giani Gian Singh did it by linking himself to Bhai Mani Singh. Bhai Vir Singh linked himself to Diwan Kaura Maal. So people need to tred carefully because they (rightfully in my opinion) risk criticisms of poor scholarship. 

 

Just because people claim it, doesn't make it true. Plus we know the motivation for doing this (perceived exaltation). 

Edited by dalsingh101
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His response:

Unlike Sikhkhoj who said he reads granths to look for errors in them, I look at Granths to see what they reveal about the time they were written in, the generation previous to it, details of earlier happenings etc. Im not interested in finding lies and errors.

 

In any case, even if the above text has a forged lineage it still talks about famous and not so famous scholars of Sikh history - what was the outcome of their students? Their students most likely produced some writings in later generations, - where are all these?

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Dalsingh: indeed and thank you for that perspective. There are definately loads of people (in all religious traditions) who seek to attach themselves to famous persona. Lets say the above lineages are all fake - what about those who were actually historically connected to these people? Did'n they write anything? Should we just dismiss it all?

Coming across the above lineage was interesting for me: Firstly because it mentions people i've never heard of before. Secondly because the Amir Bhandar teeka written some decades ago provide a similiar lineage as that handwritten pothi lays claim to belong to (150 years ago). I did look into evidence of these modern day taksali lineages without ever being able to come across anything in non-taksali writings pre 1960s. However, this pothi written some 100-120 years earlier provide a similiar lineage, just with fewer chains because it is obviosly closer to Guru Gobind Singh's time.

In one of Rattan Singh Bhangu's Granths he likewise claims a lineage back to Guru Gobind Singh's court through Sainapati, Pandit Punjab Singh, Mehtab Singh etc. I think its about 4-5 chains. One could accuse him of making it up, or one could look into the possibility that some of the people mentioned in the chains had students whom they passed knowledge onto which at one point in time made it down to Rattan Singh Bhangu and other scholars of the 19th century and onwards.

 

Edited by amardeep
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