paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 As pleasurable as eating tofu, paneer, samosa. It would be better if non-veggies are asked.tofu/paneer beat andhay dee purjee/butter chicken -- no chance --hahahaBhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 3. Parents are responsible too, if children are not in sikhi, it is most likely a reflection of parents. Mothers specially (don't get feminist on me), I believe most of us who are in sikhi are because of our mothers with strong sikh roots. Her spending a lot of childhood years with you affects your way of life. Strongly disagree with this point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis.For example: There was a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still.Years ago I was also shocked at the 2001 census having only 20k Sikhs for Bihar, the birth place of Guru Gobind Singh. But since I have discovered that Bihar once had a quite significant population of Sikhs (Nanakpanthis), which withered due to our own neglect and partly the Udasi sadhus 'reverting' to Hinduism post SGPC to prevent their Dharamshalas from getting under SGPC control.Even today some indigenous Sikhs of Bihar can be found near Lakhmipur and other areas visited by Guru Tegh Bahadur.2. I also used to believe that most Sikhs inhabiting foreign countries were of Punjabi descent, but I think a critical reading of the Janamsakhis is needed to ascertain this. The person who gave the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a native Assami King, his ancestors having converted at the times of Guru Nanak. The Raja Shivnabh of Sri Lanka also converted. More than a hundred Nanakpanthi native Arab families existed in 1930, Sikh since Guru Nanaks times (source: Mushtaq Hussain alias Prithpal Singh). Remember Salas Rai Johri the jeweller? His descendants are Nanakpanthis but in dire need of parchaar just like many other tribes and people but our SGPC is doing nothing, in a few generations they will also be back to Hinduism. Bihar used to have above 300 Dharamshalas, all with native Bihari Sikhs, such as Bhai Bhagwan during Guru Har Rais time (ex Buddhist).While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough.3. So from the above we can assume that lots of non Punjabi Sikhs used to exist. But where did they all go?a) reverted back over generations due to lack of parchaar, just as we are seeing right now with Johris.b) many of them were not in Khalsa form and thus were neglected 4. We did not forcibly convert others. While forcing is the un Sikh way, I wish more was done to convert non Sikhs during the Misl and Ranjit Singh Kaal, but sadly we are too secular... We are even butt hurt at ex Sikh Christians returning back to Sikhi to avoid political disturbances in Punjab. This explains why we are only 10-20% of the total Punjabi population.5. Indian census is not reliable, they do not count poor tribal Sikhs as Sikhs, who are atleast 2-3 million in number. Search for Sikligar, Vanjara, Lobana, Johri, etc. Wow....first time I can say I agree with your points. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I feel Singh Sabha movement Punjabised the Panth ..what was loosely connected with its diversities is now expected to follow a uniform whitewashed order.This is one good reason what makes me visit Takhat Hazoor Sahib time and again, ..we see tribal Lambada, Sikalgar , Wadari, Banjara and Bijnori presence there.I have noticed newly married Banjara sehajdhari couples coming there to do matha teko .The Hazooris accept them with their differences as long as they dont do any kurehits in the asthaan premises . The Singh sabha movement made many original Sikhs no longer feel accepted, as they would have to take amrit or keep kesh to be defined as a Sikh. Many didn't but followed the house of Nanak. Could you please go a bit further in explaining the last comment please "kurehits in asthaan", like what exactly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 3. Parents are responsible too, if children are not in sikhi, it is most likely a reflection of parents. Mothers specially (don't get feminist on me), I believe most of us who are in sikhi are because of our mothers with strong sikh roots. Her spending a lot of childhood years with you affects your way of life. Excellent good point bro, regarding mothers. During those nine months (in the womb), a mother can make a child a saint or a dacoit, depending on her acts. Vedas make reference to those nine months too.Bhul chul maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Isn't this because we've tried to trap Sikhi in a box and not understood the real thing? Haven't we reduced Sikhi to grow hair and Amrit (sanskar)? or may be it's just the effect of Mind/Kaal because it is said in Bhagat Kabir's Anurag Sagar that whenever any Saint/Guru will come to earth for the betterment of mankind, then Kaal will try everything to derail that stream.... Vahhhhhh, amazing post brother! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) The Singh sabha movement made many original Sikhs no longer feel accepted, as they would have to take amrit or keep kesh to be defined as a Sikh. Many didn't but followed the house of Nanak.Do you mean, original Sikhs did not consume amrit or keep kesh?Do you know, cutting kesh is as sinful as incest in Sikhi?Bhul chuk maaf Edited July 8, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Bro, Monay/Dharri Katuye get enough rights in Gurudwaras. They can get married in gurudwaras, get siropas (utter disgusting act), langar seva, etc. I am talking, from a Canadian perspective.Keeping kesh is the bare minimum requirement in Gurmat. One should not make keeping kesh look like a humongous task. Achieving peace of mind is way way way tougher than keeping kesh.If we start getting flexible with the basics of our religion, then we will be in, for big big trouble. Having said the above, we must deal with patits respectfully. We must not show any pride in being amritdhari in front of them and look down upon them. Do prachaar in a humble and polite way, so that they get attracted towards khanday da amrit.Bhul chuk maafBut your posts in the other topic clearly show you are looking down on non amritdhari as inferior to amritdharis? Why change of tone now?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 But your posts in the other topic clearly show you are looking down on non amritdhari as inferior to amritdharis? Why change of tone now??Bro, on a personal level, we must treat monay with respect. There might be many monay out there, who might be better humans than me, but that does not change the fact that monay, by definition cannot be classified as Sikhs.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Please don't bring your bias into to, as a chef I will tell you some of the most tastiest and best dishes I have ate have been vegetarian. I would go for dhal over murga anyday of the year.Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crystal Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Well pappi I guess we will have to agree to disagree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Well, a survey will have to be conducted to get the right results. This is what, I found.QuoteAccording to Psychology Today, roughly 75% of vegetarians eventually return to eating meat with 9 years being the average length of time of abstinence.-----Another big reason that vegetarians returned to meat was due to irresistable cravings. Unquote [1][1] - http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/most-vegetarians-return-to-eating-meat/Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The world has very few places like Punjab or northern india with fertile plainsIt is possible for Africa, itself to feed the entire world.QuoteConsider, for example, Africa’s agricultural land. According to an influential recent analysis, Africa has around 600 million hectares of uncultivated arable land, roughly 60 percent of the global total.Unquote [1][1] - http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/06/how-africa-could-feed-the-world/Add to that, India and some South American countries, it might be possible to feed the entire world with lacto-vegetarian diet.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibrute Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Strongly disagree with this point. Don't get me wrong, it is not a personal comment on anyone, these are my views. Sant Maskeen Singh Jee have also said same words in his katha, his point was Mother's sanskaar affect the child in the womb and later on in childhood years. few examples like Dhru Bhagat, his mother told him to do bhagati for getting kingdom, she could also have said grow up, be strong and fight your father. and history would be different. We can't deny this fact. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Meat has nothing to do with it. Hundreds of thousands of Europeans and Americans have converted to Budhism which likewise preaches vegetarianism.The topic here is why have'nt Sikhi spread, its not why are'nt Sikhs practicing Sikhi. Please make a new topic if you wish to discuss why Sikhs are'nt practising their own faith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Paapi, create another topic if you wish to discuss the current shortcomings in our Panth. This topic is on the historical aspect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Regarding the Satnamis I have also read conflicting statements. But some years ago puratan birs of Guru Granth Sahib were found in some of their villages. So it is highly possible that they were Nanakpanthis and lost touch with Sikhi overtime. It is funny how we have lost so many Sikhs due to our sheer neglect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The Satnami revolt took place during the era of Guru Tegh Bahadur. If they were Sikhs, then the Satnami revolt would have to be considered a Sikh revolt - a pre-Banda revolt against the Mughal authorities. But it also begs the question what was Guru Tegh Bahadurs role in this revolt and that of the other Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Indeed. But I would like to be cautious when making such links, because sometimes we get overexcited and I've seen some of our people link Shivaji & Dullah to Guru Hargobind without any concrete evidence.Research is needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Just like Shivajis teacher met Guru Hargobind, the leader of the Satnamis did meet Guru Tegh Bahadur. But whether the rebellion had any support from the Guru is not known till now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Maybe the story about Guru Tegh Bahadurs rebellion found in some Muslim sources are true after all? Because I have till date always discarded an old source which says the Guru had thousands of soldiers. The natural question that arose and subsequently went against that claim is why the Guru was not liberated during his captivity? But if the soldiers in questions were the Satnamis that means the Guru was martyred after a large section of the Sikh fighting force was killed in action with the remainders being forced to flee to the jungles of central India (present day Chattisgarh and Jharkhand). Create another topic about this amardeep. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Is it possible the Satnamis were part of the wider Udasi fold?And interesting point regarding the Mughal accounts that describe the Guru as a rebel leader!! There is a Marathi source from 1803 that mentions the meeting of Guru Hargobind Sahib and the spiritual leader of Shivaji wherein the whole aspect of soldiery is mentioned. A friend of mine said this sakhi is only found in later Sikh sources post 1803 which Means the Sikh scholars picked this sakhi up from the Marathis and included into their own writings later on. Im not sure how accurate this as I havent checked into the Bansavalinama and Mahima Prakash to see if the Sakhi is there. Balwant Singh Dhillon has also argued that the Dadupanthis did'n become militant until after their meeting with Guru Gobind Singh. He then attributes their short militancy period to Guru Gobind Singh's discussions with their leader while at Rajastan.I'll make a post regarding this later, im out for a couple of hours. Maybe NeoSingh can split this up to a new topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 No comment on the Udasi aspect.The Mughal sources are often biased but if we take Satnami rebellion and some other sources which project Guru Tegh Bahadur as shasterdhari with fauj in consideration there might be some truth to it. I think you are being mistaken about Shivaji and Guru Hargobind. Shivaji was only an early teenager when Guru Hargobind joti jot happened. Altough the meeting could've happened, our sources only talk of Shivajis teacher Samrath Ramdas meeting Guru Ji. Some say Guru Ji gifted a sword for infant Shivaji at that occassion but don't know how true that is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 We are informed that Guru Gobind Singh halted at Dudu, which was a prominent center of the Dadupanthis. Here Dadupanthi saint Jait Ram played host to the Guru and his party and had a dialogue over the issue of use of force.13 Guru Gobind Singh explained to Jait Ram that to remain always non-violent is not in the interest of mankind. Instead of submission evil forces must be resisted. Perhaps this dialogue between Guru Gobind Singh and Jait Ram proved to be a turning point in the history of Dadupanth. Ever since its origin, the Dadupanth has been a pacifist movement observing the norms of Ahimsa but in the eighteenth century we observe Dadupanthi disciples who had taken arms to organize themselves into armed bands.14 Significantly, it was during his discourse with Jait Ram, Guru Gobind Singh came to know about the presence of Madho Das in Nanded who later on joined the ranks of Khalsa to serve the Panth in the name of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur.15 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Early Satnami literature does exist, so most of our questions can be answered by a reading of those Granths. Don't know if translations exist though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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