Why Sikhi failed to spread

[amardeep]

Yep. As I wrote

 

"There is a Marathi source from 1803 that mentions the meeting of Guru Hargobind Sahib and the spiritual leader of Shivaji wherein the whole aspect of soldiery is mentioned."

[Guest]

Udhasis and nirmales were believed to spread puratan sikhi to all parts of india via their akharas, jor mela, kumb mela anglo wars some of it during mughal wars...how much is it true? what was population of sikhi back then compare to now?

[SikhKhoj]

Didn't read it correctly. An unpublished manuscript in Punjabi confirms what the Marathi source of 1793 says. 

[SikhKhoj]

Udhasis and nirmales were believed to spread puratan sikhi to all parts of india via their akharas, jor mela, kumb mela anglo wars some of it during mughal wars...how much is it true? what was population of sikhi back then compare to now?

​Believe me, alot more than 2%.

[SikhKhoj]

Neo, can you move the last few posts regarding Guru Tegh Bahadur & rebellion to another topic?

Dhanvaad.

[Guest]

 so in numbers let just say 100 million back then? or thats exaggerated number?

[SikhKhoj]

There is no source to back this up by Ahmadis claim Guru Nanak had 20 million followers all over when they left their body.

[amardeep]

100 million is too much I think. The total population of the empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh + the territories of the Phulkian raje was about 20 million in total. That would mean there were some 80 million Sikhs outside Northern India which is unlikely. The entire Mughal population during Aurangzeb's reign is estimated at 150 million.

 

Edited July 8, 2015 by amardeep

[Guest]

Ok another question when was the last time consensus was done on  sikh population recently and how they are calculated? Is it through simple vital stats birth certificates in india? 

[amardeep]

The last Indian census was done in 2011. I think it estimated some 19 million Sikhs of which 14-16 were in Punjab.

During the Misl era there were many conversions to Sikhi, but after the fall of the Lahore Darbar, many Sikhs started reverting back to Hinduism. In the early 1850s British administrators started saying that due to the pace of these conversions it was only a matter of time before Sikhi would be a product of past history. Trumpp said something similiar some 30 years later.

[amardeep]

In the 19th Century, the term Musadee was used for Muslims in Pashtun and Baluchi lands who read the Japji Sahib as part of their spiritual practices. Im not sure how many they were though.

Edited July 8, 2015 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

During the times of the Gurus and early period after (till about Baba Deep Singh) contacts were maintained with the Sangats established by Guru Nanak throughout the world. There were Gurdwaras in far away places like the Arab countries, Uzbekistan, Nepal and the east (Assam etc). The arabic bir supposedly prepared by Baba Deep Singh could not have been for Punjabi Sikhs living in Arab lands, that does not make sense. It was most perhaps for the Arab Sikhs living there. Sayed Prithipal Singh talks about an Arabic Japji he saw in Arabia. Our historical sources talk about Gurdwaras sponsored by local Muslim rulers in Arabia.

I think somewhere between the period of severe persecution (Ghallugharas) contacts were slowly lost, so till the 20th century only small communities of Arabic, Iraqi & other non Punjabi Sikhs survived, which by now might have completely vanished. Just because there were over a 100 Arabic Sikh families in 1930 does not mean that the numbers of Arabic Sikhs was always insignificant, Arabic sources discovered by Syed Prithipal talk about significant proportions of Arabs adopting Sikhi during and just after Guru Nanaks visits. If Qazi Rukn Deen could've been persecuted, just imagine what would've happened to other Arabic Sikhs? 

[amardeep]

There was a Whole category of terms used for non-ethnically Punjabi converts. Multani Singhs (Multan was part of Sindh back then), Kabul Singhs for the Afghans, Sayeed Singhs for the Muslim descendants of the prophet, Sheikh Singhs for what I think were the Muslim scholars that converted, Mughali Singhs, Baluchi Singhs was also a category from what I remember.

 

Today we mostly use Deccani and Kabuli. Is there a Word for the Patna  Sikhs?

[amardeep]

The arabic bir, - was it a translation or a transliteration? And have you ever come across any older sources for it? The only ones i've seen are from recent Damdami Taksal publications.

 

The Niddar Nihang crew found a Persian transliterated Gutka of Japji Sahib and Sukhmani Sahib in the central Indian state of Hyderabad. It was bought there in the 1770s which Means it was probably written much earlier. Thats quite interesting.

Edited July 8, 2015 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

I have also only heard it from Taksali Kathavachaks & recent DDT publications about it but it does fit in the perspective once we know about the existence of an Arabic Sikh community and people who have seen Arabic Japji Sahibs first hand. But sadly no older sources to confirm this.

Persian one is interesting but I don't think Iranian Sikh communities existed. But since Persian was an official language in many places for a long time, it could've been done with the purpose of making the GGS more accessible to the scholars etc.

[amardeep]

There are still extant Persian transliterated Guru Granth Sahib saroops from early 1800s (Sammat 1858).

In the Maharaja period some khatri Sikhs probably settled in Persia due to the trade routes: Lahore/Amristar - Kabul - Kandahar - Isfahan - Mashad. Some of the present day Sikhs in Iran came there after they fled persecution in the 1940s when partition happened. They found it more natural to join their Persian speaking Sikh Brothers in Iran than the alien Punjabi speaking Sikhs in India. This Means there were Sikhs already there. But thats quite recent history anyway.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2015 by amardeep

[SikhKhoj]

Yes, but I think you are more interested in discussing the non Punjabi Sikhs, right? Still interesting though.

[SikhKhoj]

The Niddar Nihang crew found a Persian transliterated Gutka of Japji Sahib and Sukhmani Sahib in the central Indian state of Hyderabad. It was bought there in the 1770s which Means it was probably written much earlier. Thats quite interesting.

​It indeed is.

[kdsingh80]

​It is survival in certain places, but you cannot deny that eating meat is very pleasurable. One cannot compare daal/chawal to tandoori murga/eggs/kabaabs , etc.

It there is a survey, asking non-vegetarians to choose between vegetarian and non-vegetarian food (which is more tasty), they will most likely choose non-veg.  

Bhul chuk maaf

​How about Matar paneer cholley  bhature jalebi etc.BTW ask any gym goers .they eat boiled chicken and fish very bad taste

[paapiman]

​.BTW ask any gym goers .they eat boiled chicken and fish very bad taste

​Even boiled daal, cholay, vegetables, etc are not easy to eat.

Anyways, I might start a new topic, where we can discuss non-historical reasons.

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

Gurfateh

I'd like to open a discussion on why Sikhi failed to spread significantly as a religion and failed to attract large numbers of converts outside Punjab.

​It spread during the times of the Gurus but after the necessary apparatus was not there. I mean we only know now about the Sikligars very recently and they are reputed to be in huge numbers.

1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis.

​Did the SS lehar add way more Sikhs of substance than were sidelined for their "other" beliefs? A lot of people called themselves Hindus even though they were Sikhs.

​

While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough.

 In those times, Sirhind was not classed as part of Panjab and neither was Multan. Probably Pothohar was separate as well.

 

For example: There was  a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still.

 I cannot see the merit in say the Sindhis, who follow Guru Nanak in some parts but remained fixed to their previous faiths by and large over generations and centuries.

 

 

I feel Singh Sabha movement Punjabised the Panth ..what was loosely connected with its diversities is now expected to follow a uniform whitewashed order.

​I don't think SS had any choice. Look at the situation, Panjab was the place where Sikhi and Sikhs were strongest, so it was only naturally for Panjab to be the base/core of their activities. As for the diversities you have to ask yourself whether they would have be accepted by the Gurus.

[chatanga1]

Today we mostly use Deccani and Kabuli. Is there a Word for the Patna  Sikhs?

​Poorbiye?

[Harjots8963]

We know the problem... how do we fix it ? 

[chatanga1]

The Singh sabha movement made many original Sikhs no longer feel accepted, as they would have to take amrit or keep kesh to be defined as a Sikh. Many didn't but followed the house of Nanak.

​what do you mean by original Sikhs?

[paapiman]

Meat has nothing to do with it. Hundreds of thousands of Europeans and Americans have converted to Budhism which likewise preaches vegetarianism.

The topic here is why have'nt Sikhi spread, its not why are'nt Sikhs practicing Sikhi. Please make a new topic if you wish to discuss why Sikhs are'nt practising their own faith.

​

Paapi, create another topic if you wish to discuss the current shortcomings in our Panth. This topic is on the historical aspect.

​Bro, still the population of Buddhists is very less, compared that to the meat eating Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc. Also, smoking is permitted in Budhism. Therefore, if one takes meat eating and intoxicants into account, Sikhism is pretty strict religion.

Strict views on meat eating and intoxicants, are definitely one of the reasons that Sikhism could not spread to many other people. First master definitely inspired thousands of people, around the globe, but the rehat was hard to maintain for further generations. Just look at Punjab itself (it will explain the situation on the global scale). Masters spend their maximum time in Punjab, but still the state of Sikhi in Punjab is pathetic. 

Amardeep Paaji- The title of the topic nor your first post, specified that this topic is only based on historical aspects. Anyways, I might start a new topic on non-historical reasons.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 8, 2015 by paapiman