Purpose Of Dasam Granth

[CdnSikhGirl]

As there is a huge debate on authenticity of Dasam Granth across the internet and in Sikhi, I have come across both sides of the story... and authenticity is not my concern at this point, as I believe at least 'some' of it is authentic from Guru Ji. Other parts I am unsure, but that is not what I wanted to discuss and please keep that out of this post. 

What I wanted to discuss is the reasoning behind the way the stories were written. What would the author have intended by writing so many anti-female stories?  Was the intention as this one poster from another site named "Poet Warrior" commented:

"The dasam granth is the most anti-female book in Indian history. One half of the book is devoted to stories of great vulgarity. These stories depict females as a filthy, conniving and depraved sex. The stories are explicitly designed to psychologically condition men to hold females in contempt and accord them vile treatment."

Was this the intention of those stories (whoever wrote them)? For men to hold women in contempt as he said, and psychologically condition men to see women as vile, filthy and depraved, and as a result, treat them badly? 

If the intention were to air out dirty laundry as the saying goes... then where are equally telling stories about depraved men deceiving women? If the intent were merely to warn Sikhs of people who might deceive then surely BOTH sides of the story should be presented? That is, if the stories are to be taken literally as some of you have stated.  So where are the equally vulgar stories of men deceiving women to have sex with them? Where are the warnings for women to conversely not be so trusting of men - since women more easily trust men then men do of women anyway, and men more readily want sex than women, surely we should be the ones to be warned more? But nope... the vast majority of the stories are about vile women trying to deceive men. So what did the author intend to invoke in the reader, if not to "psychologically condition men to hold females in contempt" as Poet Warrior rearked?

And in that time period when birth control was not really available, I find it VERY VERY difficult to believe that all these women would be willing to deceive for a quick roll in the hay, when pregnancy was a huge risk.  Remember back then childbirth had high mortality rates, and even if you did survive it, you had excruciating levels of pain to deal with, and that's after 9 months of morning sickness, and other serious health consequences.  It just doesn't seem worth the risk to me that women would risk their lives literally, and go to such serious lengths to have sex with someone that they would even deceive for it, knowing the result might be that they will die in childbirth as a result, or at the very least experience unbelievable pain and sickness.  It was also much easier for men to sleep around and then run away leaving the woman to deal with it...  so it seems to me the stories depict opposite to what actually would have been reality.

Remember we are not discussing WHO exactly authored the stories as that is an ongoing debate I want no part of.  Just the intention of what the author was trying to invoke in the readers mind.

[Guest]

Dasam granth is night mare for every pre condioned belief out there.. It's night mare for feminist type it's night mare for confined yudha type,  its night mare for confined any avtar sargun  worshipper and sure is night mare for confined shastar poojaks as absolute eats even kaal or shakti. 

[Guest]

In order to understand dasam granth one's back of head should be permanently soldered in tat gyan of jaap sahib  and akaal ustat before one start connecting to rest of sri dasam guru granth. 

[Crystal]

Chaaaa, fire bun. 

 site named "Poet Warrior" commented:

"The dasam granth is the most anti-female book in Indian history. One half of the book is devoted to stories of great vulgarity. These stories depict females as a filthy, conniving and depraved sex. The stories are explicitly designed to psychologically condition men to hold females in contempt and accord them vile treatment."

treatment

 

Chaaaa. Fire ah blaze wicked man. No space in the promised land for fools who think that above. 

 

CrystalCrystal

 

Ps. Happy reggae Thursday sangat ji or should I say ya bloooodclarts

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Crystal

[Crystal]

Dhan dhan Satgur Gobind Singh ji, rajan ke rajah who know's the true intention why his blessed hand wrote treh chittar.

 

If this paapi knew satgur's intention and path...blessed would he be! 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Certainly you can't discount though, that since majority of Sikhs cant possibly know the true meaning (since you all seem to think it's some hidden thing) then the outward effect is still going to be conditioning of the male mind to that of contempt towards females? Read enough stories condemning women as is portrayed there, and eventually you will believe that is how women are, and start treating women as such.  So whether or not that was the original intended meaning, that is and has been the actual outcome. 

[Crystal]

I may have the wrong end of the stick and I beg your pardon if I do,but seems like a lot of your posts seem to doubt sikhi & our beliefs and traditioms. It seems like you believe it as a backward way of thought or something ? Or have I got it wrong? Join the sulleh and see how they view women(&western world) You would come running back to the panth. 

 

Crystal meth

Edited July 9, 2015 by Crystal
Wanted

[SikhKhoj]

1) Nothing wrong in asking questions to sangat:

ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ (Guru Granth Sahib)

2) There is a difference in vaad (arguing) and khoj (research):

ਖੋਜੀ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਾਦੀ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਗੁਰ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ ॥ (Guru Granth Sahib)

[CdnSikhGirl]

I may have the wrong end of the stick and I beg your pardon if I do,but seems like a lot of your posts seem to doubt sikhi & our beliefs and traditioms. It seems like you believe it as a backward way of thought or something ? Or have I got it wrong? Join the sulleh and see how they view women(&western world) You would come running back to the panth. 

 

Crystal meth

​You did not answer my question... I am truly wanting to know.  Am I as a female supposed to consider myself as vile, disgusting, deceitful etc? Is that how our Gurus thought of women? 

1) Was the intent of the stories to make women out to seem as vile evil deceitful creatures?
2) If that was NOT the intention, can you agree that many would still come away from reading it, with that negative view of women in general, which could affect how they treat women (ie: putting women as subordinate, not caring about allowing them equal opportunity or say)
3) If the intent was to inform Sikhs in general that they should be weary of deceitful people (both male and female) and immorality, then why were the stories not equally speaking of immorality and deceitfulness in men? The stories are nearly all about women in this light... Is it trying to say that only women are deceitful and immoral and that men are angels?  

I am really trying to understand because I have read several explanations now here of which are two:

1) that it cant be taken literally... it's allegory for the male / female principle inherent in ALL / God.  - But several on here have opposed this in favour of a literal meaning
2) that it's literally intending to paint women as the evil in the world, and warning men. - If this is true, is it trying to create contempt towards women in men, and self loathing in women?

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

Sikhi is very simple, no need to complicate matters. A woman is to view her Husband as her only one true Khasam/ Lord.  A woman should only look to her husband for sexual gratification, and not think or view other hunky males. Similarly, A Sikh man need to respect her woman, He should only please her wife, and not even go to the bed of another wife in dreams. So being a Sikh couple makes things very easy, there are no issues of Distrust, and if both sikh man and woman are sincere, I am sure , that Guru Ji does kirpa too. That is the ideal way.

However, for non-sikh couple or even Sikh couples who cannot control their minds, they will be faced with problems at every nook and corner.  And all the treachery will come into play. And the tales that Guru Ji told will happen to people, have happened to people and have been happening right now in this Ghor Kalyug.

[Guest]

Certainly you can't discount though, that since majority of Sikhs cant possibly know the true meaning (since you all seem to think it's some hidden thing) then the outward effect is still going to be conditioning of the male mind to that of contempt towards females? Read enough stories condemning women as is portrayed there, and eventually you will believe that is how women are, and start treating women as such.  So whether or not that was the original intended meaning, that is and has been the actual outcome. 

​Couple of points-

- It be fundamental mistake to see dasam granth contents through western and feminism lenses..Perhaps that's why one has a hard time reconciling with lot of things in there.

- In order to view dasam granth content where  vahiguru attributes is expressed in form of female (shakti)  and but in other compositions female attributes are seen as maya-illusion-trap especially in charitropakhyan, one needs to first understand indic view both vedic and other indic traditions..vedic traditions see woman as maya  - illusion but also in shaivism/shakti indic traditions where god is personified in form of durga (female energy-shakti). Dasam granth supports both views with underpinning of absolute in jaap sahib and akaal ustat.

- To claim dasam granth as anti female is joke of century, this statement totally out of depth..Obviously author missed many gurbani quotes where God attributes are expressed in form of female- ishtri mostly and purakh-male whereas god attributes personified in sri guru granth sahib ji is mostly purakh- male. Sri guru gobind singh ji really bought together men and women in khalsa, sri guru granth sahib ji male attributes of god is expressed as purakh, kartapurakh, aad purakh and whereas in sri dasam granth female attributes of god is expressed as chandi, durga, bhauagati (not one in ardas but chandi charitar) bringing together perfect union under Ikongkar- Absolute reality.

[Ragmaala]

Dasam granth is night mare for every pre condioned belief out there.. It's night mare for feminist type it's night mare for confined yudha type,  its night mare for confined any avtar sargun  worshipper and sure is night mare for confined shastar poojaks as absolute eats even kaal or shakti. 

​Bhaji this statement is so powerful. It actually pumps me up to read this.

Dasam Bani rips apart all the bullshit in this world and the other worlds. Feminists, Warriors who think they are warriors, worshipers, shastar pujaris, Devi Devte, Rakshas, Sur Asur, Daint, Bhoot, Pret, Pisach, Nindaks of Khalsa Panth, Paap shit in their pants, run away, fall down, have no way to escape, their ego blown away to pieces, like a Nuclear Bomb shreds apart everything, every bullshit, every preconceived notion, shattering the glass of ego into million pieces, turning into dust, freaking stars turning into dust, even blackholes which eat universes tremble with fear when they see the light and power of Dasam Bani,

Dasam bani slaps you so hard, it is necessary to shake you to your core, so you rise above the bullshit....

Neo bhaji you just pumped me up lol

Dhan Dhan Dhan Dhan Dhan Dhan Dasam Bani!!!!!!!!!!!!

AKALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

[CdnSikhGirl]

Ragmaala, you said women are to see their husband as their only Lord... should husbands not also see their wives as their only Lord?  Why is it always written using language that *seemingly* puts women in the subordinate?  Or did you not mean in a control / power aspect?  

Certainly my soon to be husband and I respect each other as equals and neither one seeks to dominate the other or force our view on the other.  Decisions are made equally.  And neither one of us would ever dare think of another.  

But those stories seemingly suggest that women would more likely be sexually deviant than men, which I find very offensive.  

Edited July 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

A wife will not like it if her Husband  starts worshiping her, she will be turned off by such behavior.  A woman wants a real man, not a slave who worships her neither a child who she has to take care of, both situations will turn her off immensely.

Now you will say that you do not like being dominated or you feel masculine. The truth probably is that no manly man came into your life to make you feel feminine. Or your spiritual experiences, as you say, restrict you from seeing differences in male & female. Maybe you are an exception like an outlier in the bell curve distribution. But that does not mean that all women want to be seen as equal or worshiped by their slaves.

Evolutionarily, women are designed to be protected, loved, being provided for by their men. How will you undo thousands of years of evolutionary programming ?

Even the most hardcore feminazis desire for a man to dominate them in bed, to give them tingles, the TRUE ALPHA, but she never comes across such a man, and thus thinks all me are losers and no good.

[Guest]

Please stick to the topic, any off-topics will be deleted without notice. Lets talk about purpose of dasam granth.

[Ragmaala]

Anyways, this will be my last post on feminism, man vs woman issue etc etc...this is a useless exercise, like turning a madani in pani.

I do not claim I am right, but do try to provide interesting, unique and bold takes on certain topics.

And I do believe that Both Guru Granth Sahib & Dasam Bani can be take in a literal context as well as a deeper spiritual context.

Right now our tiny brains cannot comprehend the powerful knowledge of Bani!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Have a blessed night everyone, take a chill pill & drink some chaa ;)

[Ragmaala]

Sorry bro, point duly noted :)

[CdnSikhGirl]

If women are to be only protected 'aka damsels in distress' to be dominated by men, then wouldn't having bani designed to create contempt in men's minds towards women, actually harm that?  Protection is one thing, getting to make all the decisions is another. Someone once said with protection comes loss of freedom. More protection means more loss of freedom, more freedom means loss of protection.  And humans in general male and female are willing to give up some minor freedoms to have security (in a society sense) but no one human would ever willingly give up all freedom for total protection.  Prime example in the USA right now, some people see freedoms being removed systematically under the guise of more protection for the people.  And they don't like it one bit.  Though women would be willing to lose a bit of freedom for some protection, no woman wants to lose freedom all-together for a man who dominates her and gets to make all the decisions and tells her what to do when to do it etc.  I mean, no woman wants the football game to win out over her show ALL the time!  

But as this pertains to Dasam Granth... what would having bani designed to make women look like they are all temptresses hell bent on only having sex and will deceive to get it?  How will that HELP the male female relationship if men read that and come out of it thinking women are all trash?? Its not called the wiles of SOME women. Its called the wiles of women... meaning it's generalizing.  Its putting the entire gender under a microscope and saying this is what women are like so dont trust them.... this feeling can be seen echoed in Bhai Chaupa Singh's Rhetnamma where he comes straight out and says that women can not be trusted.  (not SOME women but women as in ALL women). 

So is the intent of Dasam Granth to plant this notion into men's  minds that women are vile, disgusting, deviant, and deceptive?  And if so, what does this actually accomplish other than to cause contempt towards women and the further oppression of them? Or at the very least, causing men to see women as being spiritually inferior. 

[paapiman]

 

And in that time period when birth control was not really available, I find it VERY VERY difficult to believe that all these women would be willing to deceive for a quick roll in the hay, when pregnancy was a huge risk.  Remember back then childbirth had high mortality rates, and even if you did survive it, you had excruciating levels of pain to deal with, and that's after 9 months of morning sickness, and other serious health consequences.  It just doesn't seem worth the risk to me that women would risk their lives literally, and go to such serious lengths to have sex with someone that they would even deceive for it, knowing the result might be that they will die in childbirth as a result, or at the very least experience unbelievable pain and sickness.  It was also much easier for men to sleep around and then run away leaving the woman to deal with it...  so it seems to me the stories depict opposite to what actually would have been reality.

 

​Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee is well ahead of its times. I agree at that time, females were not very dominant in society. In today's world (some parts), females are getting freedom and power. Now, people will realize the greater significance of this Gurbani.

Satguru jee is all-knowing of the future, not ordinary human like me or you. 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

 

So is the intent of Dasam Granth to plant this notion into men's  minds that women are vile, disgusting, deviant, and deceptive?  And if so, what does this actually accomplish other than to cause contempt towards women and the further oppression of them? Or at the very least, causing men to see women as being spiritually inferior. 

​The intent is very clear. Don't think of all women as innocent and harmless beings. It was important to reveal this aspect of women as some people might assume women to be innocent and harmless beings, but not all are. If there was no Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee, there was a possibility that innocent Sikhs males would respect all women too much and might end up being puppets in the hands of immoral/characterless women.

Bhuk chuk maaf

[jaikaara]

Ohh Man...another stretch of the same nonsensical debate...until now we had fights on the content of Hindu mat in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji and now we have another dimension added ..FEMINISM !!!!!!! 

N30 bhaa ji ..BIG REQUEST ...can we have this locked .

[CdnSikhGirl]

​The intent is very clear. Don't think of all women as innocent and harmless beings. It was important to reveal this aspect of women as some people might assume women to be innocent and harmless beings, but not all are. If there was no Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee, there was a possibility that innocent Sikhs males would respect all women too much and might end up being puppets in the hands of immoral/characterless women.

Bhuk chuk maaf

​Okay, lets say this is correct... where is the similar stories to warn innocent Singhnis that not ALL men are chivalrous and well intentioned when they proclaim love? Where are all the stories of men seducing women for sex? I didn't see any of that in Dasam Granth when I read it.  Only vast majority stories were about women doing the seducing.  

Back to the intent of the writing... 

- why the need to be overtly descriptive, as in pornographic stories? Was it needed to describe sex acts in such detail?
- If the stories were just about warning men about women, why no similar warning for women about men seeing as men can be just as manipulative and moreso when it comes to sex?
-  If the intent is only to warn about 'some' women. Then why is the title the 'Wiles of women' and not 'wiles of some women'? If the warning is only about a minority of women, then why so much emphasis on it that it takes 40% of the overall dasam granth? 
- Putting THAT much emphasis on warning men about women, and putting THAT much detail about sexual acts etc in there (ie repetition) whether the original intent was meant to or not, it most definitely DOES plant a very negative view of women in the minds of men such that it creates contempt towards women by men. Even if they don't hold contempt directly after reading it, there is enough of a psychological affect there that it would cause men to always be weary of trusting ALL women.

- If the warning was only about a minority of women... then this just hurt natural relations between males and females because males would always be distrustful of women and treat them accordingly. 

This cant be the intent of Guru Ji??? 

Also where does the story of 'licking a mare's vagina' come in here?? The physician convinced the guy to repeatedly lick a mares behind to remove a 'curse' and then ultimately convinced the whole town to do the same. Where is the moral story in THAT one??? And why the need to be so descriptive about it?  I see why many Sikhs are weary of these stories in Dasam Granth.  I cant see why Guru Ji would write a story about a man licking a horse's vagina, with some spiritual message in it??? 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

 

Also where does the story of 'licking a mare's vagina' come in here?? The physician convinced the guy to repeatedly lick a mares behind to remove a 'curse' and then ultimately convinced the whole town to do the same. Where is the moral story in THAT one??? And why the need to be so descriptive about it?  I see why many Sikhs are weary of these stories in Dasam Granth.  I cant see why Guru Ji would write a story about a man licking a horse's vagina, with some spiritual message in it??? 

A dumb person like me, can also see the moral of the story above.

First teaching -- Don't blindly follow any person, even if the person is a highly educated one (physician in this case).

Second teaching - To remove curses, don't go anywhere else. Read Gurbani to remove them, rather than seeking physicians.

Third teaching - Bestiality exists. It is very much possible that some innocent Sikhs of that time, were not even aware of bestiality.

There might be many more teachings from it, in addition to the deeper meanings of this tale.

Btw, I am not saying that my spiritual level is higher than yours. So, please don't get personal.

Bhul chul maaf

Edited July 17, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

As there is a huge debate on authenticity of Dasam Granth across the internet and in Sikhi, 

​The authenticity is only questioned by cultists. Most of the orthodox sects don't question it. Therefore, in a sense, there is no authenticity issues.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

 

So is the intent of Dasam Granth to plant this notion into men's  minds that women are vile, disgusting, deviant, and deceptive?  And if so, what does this actually accomplish other than to cause contempt towards women and the further oppression of them? Or at the very least, causing men to see women as being spiritually inferior. 

​So according to your line of thinking, the below tuks from SSGGSJ, portray men as perverts and cheaters. In the below tuks, it talks about men and not women. Why is it biased? -- answer this

 

ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥

Behind closed doors, hidden by many screens, the man takes his pleasure with another man's wife.

ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਜਬ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਤਬ ਕਉਣੁ ਪੜਦਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਢਾਕੈ ॥੩॥

When Chitr and Gupt, the celestial accountants of the conscious and subconscious, call for your account, who will screen you then? ||3||

 

ਤਕਹਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਪਰਾਈਆ ਲੁਕਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਠਾਣੀ ॥

They spy on other men's women, concealed in their hiding places.

 

ਅਖੀ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਪਰ ਧਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥

The impurity of the eyes is to gaze upon the beauty of another man's wife, and his wealth.

 

ਵੇਲਿ ਪਰਾਈ ਜੋਹਹਿ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਚੋਰੀ ਬੁਰਿਆਰੀ ॥

You gaze upon the wives of others, O my soul; you steal and commit evil deeds.

 

ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰਾਵਣਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਸੇਈ ਤਾ ਲਾਜੀਅਹਿ ॥

Those men who go out to enjoy other men's women shall suffer in shame.

 

Bhul chuk maaf