Guest RSS_turned_into_DDT Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Look who is getting scared all of a sudden above 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Now you expect us to believe the same lies that Mughals and Bahmans pushed against our Guru's in order to undermine Sikhi's hatred for the caste systemCan you please explain these lies?Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 ^ that's what bahmans like yourself want the public to think.Provide evidence.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 ^ that's what bahmans like yourself want the public to think.First u make up these lies about Guru's wives all being Khatriguest Ji, as requested please provide any evidence about this. us asking doesn't make us brahmans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Priyadarshi Dutta Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 "As late as 1757, Ahmed Shah Abdali carried out a massacre of Jats and Gujjars while invading Mathura, Vrindavan and Gokul during the Holi period. But many Gujjars east of the Sutlej had always chosen death to Islam. The most revered instance is that of the brave Sikh martyr Mata Gujjari Ji (the most blessed mother of Guru Gobind Singh Ji) and known to Sikhs after 1699 as Mata Gujjar Kaur Ji (in recognition of her Gujjar parentage prior to her initiation into the Khalsa Panth) who, along with her two grandsons Baba Zorawar Singh and Baba Fateh Singh, chose to be bricked alive in a wall by Aurengzeb's henchman rather than convert to Islam."Extracts from Priyadarshi Dutta's book on 18th century resistance to the Mughal Empire 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Stop being a fool amardeep. Kesar Singh gives 2 Banis (japji anand) for Amrit, whether he tries to link his ancestors to this ceremony is another topic. Him 'altering' the recited banis at Amrit Sanchar does not affect his ancestors involvement (or absence thereof). Therefore keep these theories to yourself, you wannabe scholar. ALL historical sources got inaccuracies, so just because Kesar tries to link his ancestors with the ceremony does not affect the other facts such as his objectivity in reporting the amrit sanchaar date or the banis read so you cannot reject the source in its entirety especially keeping the fact in mind that is it the oldest source which mentions the bani names.Your baseless theories are utter crap. I debunked your Gur Sobha myth so badly that you ran away from that topic and that PrashanUttar/Prehlad Singh fiasco you're trying to avoid too. You should learn not to twist every source to fit in your dasam granthi soch Edited August 10, 2015 by SikhKhoj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Exactly. I mean why would people think Im a goat if my name is Chatanga.No but you got the IQ of a goat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Oh he's back. Great. You were missed. Or something. Edited August 10, 2015 by amardeep 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 "As late as 1757, Ahmed Shah Abdali carried out a massacre of Jats and Gujjars while invading Mathura, Vrindavan and Gokul during the Holi period. But many Gujjars east of the Sutlej had always chosen death to Islam. The most revered instance is that of the brave Sikh martyr Mata Gujjari Ji (the most blessed mother of Guru Gobind Singh Ji) and known to Sikhs after 1699 as Mata Gujjar Kaur Ji (in recognition of her Gujjar parentage prior to her initiation into the Khalsa Panth) who, along with her two grandsons Baba Zorawar Singh and Baba Fateh Singh, chose to be bricked alive in a wall by Aurengzeb's henchman rather than convert to Islam."Extracts from Priyadarshi Dutta's book on 18th century resistance to the Mughal Empire Any rebuttals to the above source?Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Paapi stop asking others for rebuttal, learn to read and learn yourself instead of relying on sants or online forums.And amardeepu, talk facts not useless bakwas. 'Kesar Singhs focus is on linking ceremony to his ancestors so the banis read should be ignored' lol wishful thinking to erase parts of history that do not fit into your dasam granth narrative lol. Being very quick to use kesar singh when he says saakh Mehla 10 to big up dasam Granth but for amrit sanchar you got problems, hypocrite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 No but you got the IQ of a goat. The old ones are the best ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 Stop being a fool amardeep. Kesar Singh gives 2 Banis (japji anand) for Amrit, whether he tries to link his ancestors to this ceremony is another topic.True, it is a fact that it is written but it doesn't make it an actual fact in any way more than Kaushish writes keski as Kakaar. Written scripture cannot be taken as fact always. We do have a source in saying there were 2 banis, but would you be so bold as to accept everything in the book being fact if you were to accept this as fact?The way I see it, 18th century literature, in it's extremely limited and sparse form tells us bits of information here and there. You can take any one line from it to prove a point, to fit in with what you believe Sikhi to be. But evolution throughout the times has brought us to where we are today, and something must have been there to get us to this point today. We know that the SS lehar wasn't too kind to Dasme Patshah's Granth and effectively sidelined it from the places under their control. But they never sidelined the banis as a whole. Even under SGPC maryada today, Dasam banis are used in Nitnem. So that has to mean that even in those times there must have been something there for the SS scholars to believe that Dasam Banis formed part of the Amrit Sinchaar. Therefore keep these theories to yourself, you wannabe scholar.This is where you need to introspect because :ALL historical sources got inaccuracies.There it is. Why should we believe this one line to be any more truer than any other? You should learn not to twist every source to fit in your dasam granthi soch You haven't? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Any rebuttals to the above source?No need. there is absolutely no basis for priyas assertion other than the name. The word "Gujjar" means Shepherd. To associate with caste is riduculous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Has anyone read Dr Harbhajan Singh's book " Karta sanbandi vivaad di punar samikhia" ? There is a chapter that focuses on Bansavalinama in detail. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 I haven't read that. What does it say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Jatts + Gujjars are tribes not castes.Farmers are kissans but Jatts are an ethnic tribe Goatherds (not shepherds lol) are bakri chaaran wale but Gujjars are an ethnic tribe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Jatts + Gujjars are tribes not castes.Farmers are kissans but Jatts are an ethnic tribe Goatherds (not shepherds lol) are bakri chaaran wale but Gujjars are an ethnic tribeJatts might be a tribe or a race, but they were part of the Shudar (so-called lowest) varan (caste).Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I haven't read that. What does it say.I will put some pictures up tomorrow. I have to charge up my spare phone to do it. In the meantime, have awatch of this video. It's Dr Harbhajan Singh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zs6heMcRyQ They are quite long, but very informative. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Trehan + Bhalla were not originally thought of as Kshatriya clans (but thought of as Vaishya or Sat Shudra clans).Trehan and Bhalla are both Khatri (warrior) sub-castes. Some surnames are common between different tribes/races.Second master (Trehan) and third master (Bhalla) were both from Hindu Khatri (warrior) caste/varan. Their families trace back their roots to Sri Ram Chandar jee Maharaaj.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Jatts might be a tribe or a race, but they were part of the Shudar (so-called lowest) varan (caste).Bhul chuk maafActually jatts are vashiyas not shudras. You are mistaken brother. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Actually jatts are vashiyas not shudras. You are mistaken brother.Bro, according to Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj (greatest Sikh scholar), they are not Vaish. He did not mention them in the Vaish category. Obviously, they are not Brahmans or Khatris. They are Shudars. Bhai saab jee has used the word "Jaat" (which is the Hindi version of the word "Jatt") in his vaaran.Bhul chuk maaf Edited August 16, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Actually jatts are vashiyas not shudras. You are mistaken brother.Pauri 11 (Vaaran Bhai Gurdaas) heading is "Vaish caste". Jatts are not mentioned in it.Pauri 12 (Vaaran Bhai Gurdaas) heading is "Castes and working classes". Jatts are mentioned in this Pauri. Please have a look below.Additional note: The line where Jatts are mentioned, Chimbay are also mentioned. We know from history and Gurbani that Srimaan Bhagat Naamdev jee Maharaaj was born in a Chimba family and was refereed to as a Shudar by Brahmans. ਕਿਤੜੇ ਸੂਦ ਸਦਾਇਦੇ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਕਾਇਥ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੇ।Kitarhay Sood Sadaaiay Kitarhay Kaaid Likhanahaaray.कितड़े सूद सदाइए कितड़े काइथ लिखणहारे ।Many are Sud and many are kaith, the bookkeepers.1 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੧ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਹੀ ਬਾਣੀਏ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਭਾਭੜਿਆ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੇ।Kaytarhiaan Hee Baaneeay Kitarhay Bhaabharhiaan Souniaaray.केतड़िआं ही बाणीए कितड़े भाभड़िआं सुनिआरे ।Many are traders and many more Jain goldsmiths.2 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੨ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਲਖ ਜਾਟ ਹੋਇ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਛੀਂਬੇ ਸੈਸਾਰੇ।Kaytarhiaan Lakh Jat Hoi Kaytarhiaan Chheenbai Saisaaray.केतड़िआं लख जट होइ केतड़िआं छींबै सैसारे ।In this world millions are Jats and millions are calico printers.3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੩ Source - http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/8/pauri/12 Bhul chuk maaf Edited August 16, 2015 by paapiman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VaishyaAccording to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VaishyaAccording to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc.Daas heard a Sikh scholar too, who mentioned Jatts as Vaish, but bro, we have to give Bhai Gurdaas Vaaran more credibility than a scholar or Puranas.Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VaishyaAccording to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc.There was another personality in our panth, Pandit Gulab Singh jee. He was once refused some knowledge (videya) or rejected as a pupil (something like that), for being a Shudar. He was from a Jatt background.Bhul chuk maaf Edited August 16, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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