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BhagatSingh

Are 'ੴ' and '॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥' meant to be performed?

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Here's a different perspective -

Consider that '' and '॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥' are meant to be performed not simply stated.

They are written differently, not simply written as ਏਕ ਓਂਕਾਰ and ਰਹਾਉ but as a part of a performance - ੴ and ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Do we read these when they show up in gurbani?
॥੧॥ ॥੨॥ ॥੩॥ ॥੪॥
So why do we read - ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when it shows up in the same shabads?


Do we simply read these symbols when they show up somewhere?
Common Web Symbols

So why do we read - ੴ when it shows up?


Like in a script we have actions and we have dialogues.
John - *get off the chair* "I will take care of it"
Action - *get off the chair* something John does
Dialogue - "I will take care of it" Something John says

If John remained in the chair and said "Get off the chair, I will take care of it" That would be kind of silly.

They even make a joke about it in Spongebob.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hQ-9nSHj-M


Just let that idea sink in for a bit. If only as a different perspective, food for thought.

Edited by BhagatSingh

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How do we know ੴ is actually ik oankar? 

Read an absurd article by some professor where he discusses ੴ and says it is not ik oankar but something else. It is available on IUS Canada.

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How would a rahao be performed?

By pausing.

Exactly.

There are three pauses in Gurbani 1. Short 2. Medium 3. Long

1. This is a short pause (comma). This is implied. You have to get into a rhythm of the poetry to see this.
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Do you see it?

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ  - short pause-  ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

2. This is a medium pause (semicolon). This is stated.
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
॥ - is a medium pause
Combine 1 and 2.
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ - short pause -  ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ - medium pause -
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ - short pause - ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ  - medium pause -


3. This is a long pause (full stop). This stated.
ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
This sentence has no short or medium pauses only a long one at the end.

ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ - long pause for contemplation -
how no one can fully know Your limits, God. - contemplate now (ਰਹਾਉ) -
 

How do we know ੴ is actually ik oankar? 

Read an absurd article by some professor where he discusses ੴ and says it is not ik oankar but something else. It is available on IUS Canada.

Interesting. Can you post the article here?

 

Edited by BhagatSingh

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ਰਹਾਉ

 

I've often thought the above actually means to pause in the recital/reading. 

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I stopped reading when he said "leads sikhs to accept ancient mythology". He doesn't know shit, he hasn't read Guru Granth Sahib. I might read it later if you think there is more to it but that first sentence sounds like it will be a waste of time for me.
 

Only the conclusion of referring to  as 'ik oh beant' is not convincing at all.

Yea that is a bogus conclusion.

 

Edited by BhagatSingh

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Don't read it. But I 'liked' the fact that he questioned the terminology, what are our earliest sources saying ik oankar? Some early teekas?

The author famously supports consuming halal meat!

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Exactly.

There are three pauses in Gurbani 1. Short 2. Medium 3. Long

1. This is a short pause (comma). This is implied. You have to get into a rhythm of the poetry to see this.
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Do you see it?

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ  - short pause-  ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

2. This is a medium pause (semicolon). This is stated.
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
॥ - is a medium pause
Combine 1 and 2.
ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ - short pause -  ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ - medium pause -
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ - short pause - ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ  - medium pause -


3. This is a long pause (full stop). This stated.
ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
This sentence has no short or medium pauses only a long one at the end.

ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਤਾ ਕੇਵਡੁ ਚੀਰਾ - long pause for contemplation -
how no one can fully know Your limits, God. - contemplate now (ਰਹਾਉ) -
 

 

 

Bro, correct me if I am wrong. the three vishraams are - Alap (very short - aka jamkee), Arad (short) and Pooran (complete).

For example:

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

 

Alap - after ਚੁਪੈ 

Arad - after ਹੋਵਈ 

Pooran - after ਤਾਰ 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Don't read it. But I 'liked' the fact that he questioned the terminology, what are our earliest sources saying ik oankar? Some early teekas?

Ah definitely. I like that these guys question but they often go into absolute absurd levels!

The earliest source is Guru Granth Sahib itself. It says Ek Onkar (ਏਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ), Ekankar (ਏਕੰਕਾਰ), Onkar (ਓਅੰਕਾਰ), Om (ਓਅੰ), etc in there.

You can also read the Freed Kote Teeka which comes from the old nirmala tradition -
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2
They wrote an essay on Onkar and the manglacharan.
Can be hard to understand but it's the best teeka I know, surpassing even Prof sahib Singh, who makes several key mistakes that are repeated ad nauseum by "scholars". (I'll make a thread on that too ;) )

I have to correct your transliteration here. "ik oankar" is not accurate, the ਅ in ਓਅੰਕਾਰ is not pronounced. It's only a placeholder for the tippi above it. Traditionally they didn't use bindi on the ਓ like - ਓਂਕਾਰ.
So Onkar, Omkar, Aumkar are all valid. But Oankar and Ongkar are not.

Ongkar is not correct because -
the Ng letter in Punjabi is ਙ. As in ngani, ਙਾਨੀ (often spelled as ਗਿਆਨੀ)

The author famously supports consuming halal meat!

Another confirmation that he has not read the Guru Granth Sahib.

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Bro, correct me if I am wrong. the three vishraams are - Alap (very short - aka jamkee), Arad (short) and Pooran (complete).

For example:

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

 

Alap - after ਚੁਪੈ 

Arad - after ਹੋਵਈ 

Pooran - after ਤਾਰ 

Bhul chuk maaf

That sounds fine.

There are areas wher
e there are pauses in the gurmukhi itself. Alap is not part of it. It's just that Alap is personal preference. Most people don't read it with Alap in daily life.

Ps isn't Alap extending a word?

Edited by BhagatSingh

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Ah definitely. I like that these guys question but they often go into absolute absurd levels!

The earliest source is Guru Granth Sahib itself. It says Ek Onkar (ਏਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ), Ekankar (ਏਕੰਕਾਰ), Onkar (ਓਅੰਕਾਰ), Om (ਓਅੰ), etc in there.

 

Ofcourse these words are mentioned in Gurbani. But how do we link those pronunciations to the 'symbol' ?

 

I have to correct your transliteration here. "ik oankar" is not accurate, the ਅ in ਓਅੰਕਾਰ is not pronounced. It's only a placeholder for the tippi above it. Traditionally they didn't use bindi on the ਓ like - ਓਂਕਾਰ.
So Onkar, Omkar, Aumkar are all valid. But Oankar and Ongkar are not.

Ongkar is not correct because -
the Ng letter in Punjabi is ਙ. As in ngani, ਙਾਨੀ (often spelled as ਗਿਆਨੀ)

Only if ਓ is even o(a)nkar to begin with ;) Just joking.

No comment on that though

 

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Ofcourse these words are mentioned in Gurbani. But how do we link those pronunciations to the 'symbol' ?

Only if ਓ is even o(a)nkar to begin with ;) Just joking.
No comment on that though

Because this is also present in other Indic religions.
already means ਏਕ ਓਂਕਾਰ, which means ਏਕ one, ਕਾਰ continuous, ਓਂ Om

In Hindi ओं
In Punjabi ਓਂ (Guru sahibs would have written ਓਅੰ )
These are boring.

and ੴ are stylized and interesting to look at. They follow the 'elements of art' namely balance

Question - How did Guru Sahibs get ੴ from ਓਅੰ ?
Answer- Draw this out on a piece of paper because its all about the visuals!

1. Draw ਓ because this is the main syllable.



If you write ਓ and you want to stylize it then you extend the top line to the right.
When you extend it and also adds meaning - that ਓਂ is  ਕਾਰ, continuous.

2. Extend the top line to the right.     

ਓ^^

When you extend that line to the right. The symbol becomes unbalanced. It has two much weight to the right side, it looks like its going to tip over. It's not balanced so how do you add balance without changing the original meaning?

3. Now add a 1 right before ਓ.  

1ਓ^^

Now its balanced and the meaning hasn't changed. In fact, it is now enhanced! Congratulations, you've now created a beautiful symbol ੴ out of ਓਂ

Edited by BhagatSingh

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That sounds fine.
There are areas wher
e there are pauses in the gurmukhi itself. Alap is not part of it. It's just that Alap is personal preference. Most people don't read it with Alap in daily life.

Ps isn't Alap extending a word?

Alap - ਅਲਪ - ਛੋਟਾ, ਥੋੜਾ, ਹੋਛਾ, ਨਿਕਾ।

http://www.khojgurbani.org/worddetail/gurmukhi/ਅਲਪ

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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Don't read it. But I 'liked' the fact that he questioned the terminology, what are our earliest sources saying ik oankar? Some early teekas?

The author famously supports consuming halal meat!

Kavi Santokh Singh's Garab Ganjani spells it out as Ek Oankaar and discusses why the Guru chose to place ek in front of oam etc. Very interesting as it also discusses the relation between vedas and gurbani - you can find the teeka online.

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Alap - ਅਲਪ - ਛੋਟਾ, ਥੋੜਾ, ਹੋਛਾ, ਨਿਕਾ।

http://www.khojgurbani.org/worddetail/gurmukhi/ਅਲਪ

Bhul chuk maaf

I thought you said ਅਲਾਪ.

I don't think there is any pause after ਚੁਪੈ in
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

Is there any pause after ਕਿਵ and ਹੁਕਮਿ ?

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ

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I thought you said ਅਲਾਪ.

I don't think there is any pause after ਚੁਪੈ in
ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ

Is there any pause after ਕਿਵ and ਹੁਕਮਿ ?

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ
ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ

Bro, there is a saroop of maharaaj with vishrams. Please download it. There is a Alap vishraam after "ਚੁਪੈ".

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/literature

Bhul chuk maaf

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Bro, there is a saroop of maharaaj with vishrams. Please download it. There is a Alap vishraam after "ਚੁਪੈ".

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/literature

Bhul chuk maaf

I can see why you and they are adding vishram there. But are you reading it like that?

Edited by BhagatSingh

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