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Sikh Astrologer


paapiman

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I am not really sure why you guys think astrology should not be allowed.
I don't see a problem with it. If Paapiman wants to see an astrologer, so what?

ok....truth is..->there's not really a problem with him  seeing an astrologer, but finding a ''good'' astrologer---> that is a problem.. Another member gave a clue about wasting money...suppose we're just trying to tell him in a roundabout way--> don't bother cuz we've all had experiences of being ripped off by them :) !!

trying to save the kid a few $$........hehehe..

 

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ok....truth is..->there's not really a problem with him  seeing an astrologer, but finding a ''good'' astrologer---> that is a problem.. Another member gave a clue about wasting money...suppose we're just trying to tell him in a roundabout way--> don't bother cuz we've all had experiences of being ripped off by them :) !!

trying to save the kid a few $$........hehehe..

 

Lucky that I can understand. It's a reasonable position.

But  saying (not you) that "Astrology is not allowed in Gurmat" and putting up mistranslated verses to prove that - that I am NOT ok with.

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Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:

ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ

Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

The word "ਗਣਤ " can also refer to Math and accounting.

ਗਣਤ  - ਗਿਣਤੀ, ਗਿਣਤੀ-ਮਿਣਤੀ, ਲੇਖਾ, ਲਾਖਾ-ਜੋਖਾ।

http://www.khojgurbani.org/worddetail/gurmukhi/ਗਣਤ

Does that mean, we must stop studying math or accounting at school?

Even if "ਗਣਤ" refers to accounting, according to your line of thinking, the below verse indicates that medicines should not be taken. 

ਅਉਖਧ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਤੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਛਾਰੁ ॥

All medicines and remedies, mantras and tantras are nothing more than ashes.

Does that mean, we should stop going to doctors or consuming medicines?

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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It wouldn't be fair to compare astrology with medical science. Couple of points-

1. For health issues, we use medical science, ayurveda etc which are acceptable in gurmat as per sikh history/rehitnamas/vidya those who don't have bhagat dhanna type of faith but those who do they beleive in sarab rog ka aukhad naam for all disease

2. For mind related issues- future uncertainty, dilemmas as per sikhi- NAAM is shrimoni, we are advised to naam simran - sarab rog ka aukhad naam

Is there any verse, which clearly prohibits a Sikh from going to a Astrologer?

Medical science can be compared to astrology. Both are sciences. Above all, astrology was invented by a Saint.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Is there any verse, which clearly prohibits a Sikh from going to a Astrologer?

Medical science can be compared to astrology. Both are sciences. Above all, astrology was invented by a Saint.

Bhul chuk maaf

Not really medical science can be compared with ayurveda not astrology. 

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Those who have beleived- guru maharaj- its jot saroop-atma is always Sadaa Ang Sange Abhangang Bibhoote does not need astrology for their mansic rog (mental hurddles/doubts/pains)

One who has full belief in Satguru jee, also does not need any worldly education, doctors, family support, bank accounts, housing, clothing, etc

Bhul chuk maaf

A Sikh always turns to guruji and akal purakh.

 

That should apply to all kinds of troubles, including medical ones. But, most likely, most of us will go to a doctor, rather that turning to only Satguru jee for curing our diseases.

Bhul chuk maaf

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oooh balle balle !!! :)

come on kiddo....listen...this is like saying  "you can go and pay a visit to whore and make enquiries -(gurmat)...but if you agree to become a client for her services then 'that's not gurmat'

 

I'm not sure you understand  that astrology is within ''limitations''...whereas gurmat and sikhi is outside of any boxes of confining dogmas or limits.

 

Bro, don't compare a great field of study (invented by a Saint), to a whore. We must be thankful to Rikhi Bhrigu jee Maharaaj for giving us this gift. 

If someone misuses it, then it is not Rikhi jee's fault. Even modern medical science can be misused - abortions, female infanticides, etc

Bhul chuk maaf

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Personal reason bro. Don't feel like saying it.

Bhul chuk maaf

You shouldn't and don't have to.

If these guys think it's against gurmat, they shouldn't do it. If they want to try to stop someone else, then they need to prove it with properly translated shabads.

The word "ਗਣਤ " can also refer to Math and accounting.

In fact, In Gurbani ਗਣਤ is only referring to math and accounting.

The word for Astrology is ਜੋਤਿਕ

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BhagatSingh;

Go to panna 904 and read the whole Shabad Guru Nanak Maharaj addresses to a Pandit as is evident from ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ (panday = pandit). One of the tuks clearly mentions the word "jotak": ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥

Therefore it is clear that Guru Nanak is talking about the futility of drawing birth charts and calculating auspicious days. I would just request you to next time read a whole Shabad before creating an issue, thanks.

 

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BhagatSingh;

Go to panna 904 and read the whole Shabad Guru Nanak Maharaj addresses to a Pandit as is evident from ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ (panday = pandit). One of the tuks clearly mentions the word "jotak": ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥

Therefore it is clear that Guru Nanak is talking about the futility of drawing birth charts and calculating auspicious days. I would just request you to next time read a whole Shabad before creating an issue, thanks.

 

Futile for what purpose?

You left that key bit out of your translation.

Guru Sahib says Astrology is futile for obtaining God. For other things its fine. If someone wants to do it they can do it.

Had Paapiman come here and said, "Guys I am gona stop meditating, from now on I am thinking about going in astrology" Then you should show that shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji to him and tell him that it's futile for that purpose.

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Because Paapiman and Bhagat seem to be in denial here is the whole shabad:

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ 
ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ਨਾਵਹਿ ਧੋਵਹਿ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਸੈਲਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੈਲੋ ਮੈਲਾ ॥ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਰਥਿ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥਿ ॥੩॥
ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥ 
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਹਮ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥

The so called 'calculations' (gannt) is to make a birth chart, not the normal everyday maths. 

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BhagatSingh;

Go to panna 904 and read the whole Shabad Guru Nanak Maharaj addresses to a Pandit as is evident from ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ (panday = pandit). One of the tuks clearly mentions the word "jotak": ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥

Therefore it is clear that Guru Nanak is talking about the futility of drawing birth charts and calculating auspicious days. I would just request you to next time read a whole Shabad before creating an issue, thanks.

 

What is the uthanka of the shabad? Is the pandit, a pakhandee or not?

Answer this question:

Does the shabad below indicate, we should stop going to doctors or consuming medicines?

ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਘਨ ਹਿਰੇ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

Millions of obstacles are removed in an instant,

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਸੁਨਾਹਿ ॥੧

for those who listen to the Sermon of the Lord, Har, Har, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||1||

ਪੀਵਤ ਰਾਮ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਗੁਣ ਜਾਸੁ ॥

They drink in the sublime essence of the Lord's Name, the Ambrosial Elixir.

ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਮਿਟੀ ਖੁਧਿ ਤਾਸੁ ॥੧ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Meditating on the Lord's Feet, hunger is taken away. ||1||Pause||

ਸਰਬ ਕਲਿਆਣ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਨਿਧਾਨ ॥

The treasure of all happiness, celestial peace and poise,

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਵਸਹਿ ਭਗਵਾਨ

are obtained by those, whose hearts are filled with the Lord God. ||2||

Page 196

ਅਉਖਧ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਤੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਛਾਰੁ ॥

All medicines and remedies, mantras and tantras are nothing more than ashes.

ਕਰਣੈਹਾਰੁ ਰਿਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਧਾਰੁ ॥੩

Enshrine the Creator Lord within your heart. ||3||

ਤਜਿ ਸਭਿ ਭਰਮ ਭਜਿਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥

Renounce all your doubts, and vibrate upon the Supreme Lord God.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਟਲ ਇਹੁ ਧਰਮੁ ॥੪੮੦੧੪੯

Says Nanak, this path of Dharma is eternal and unchanging. ||4||80||149||

 

Bhul chul maaf

 

Edited by paapiman
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Because Paapiman and Bhagat seem to be in denial here is the whole shabad:

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥ 
ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ਨਾਵਹਿ ਧੋਵਹਿ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਸੈਲਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੇ ਮੈਲੋ ਮੈਲਾ ॥ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਰਥਿ ॥ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥਿ ॥੩॥
ਵਾਚੈ ਵਾਦੁ ਨ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੈ ਕਿਉ ਪਿਤਰਾ ਤਾਰੈ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਚੀਨੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥ 
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਹਮ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥

The so called 'calculations' (gannt) is to make a birth chart, not the normal everyday maths. 

ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ 

The word "ਝੂਠੁ" is giving an indication that the pundit might be a pakhandee.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Because Paapiman and Bhagat seem to be in denial here is the whole shabad:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਅਪਰਾਧ ਸਰਣਿ ਹਮ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟੇ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥

The so called 'calculations' (gannt) is to make a birth chart, not the normal everyday maths. 

Well you are not helping by putting up mistranslated shabads and leaving important bits out.

Once more I'll repeat.

That's referring to an account of Karma. In Gurbani
ਗਣਤ is referring to accounts of your actions.

Guru Arjun Dev ji says ਅਪਨੇ ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਗਣਈ ਰਾਖੈ ਬਾਲ ਗੁਪਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He does not count his devotees' account of karma, Gopal protects them.
 


ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥

Futile for what purpose?

You left that key bit out of your translation.

Guru Sahib says Astrology is futile for obtaining God. For other things its fine. If someone wants to do it they can do it.

Had Paapiman come here and said, "Guys I am gona stop meditating, from now on I am thinking about going in astrology" Then you should show that shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji to him and tell him that it's futile for that purpose.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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This is my last post on this thread. 

First line says "ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥". Guru Nanak starts of by saying: O Pandit, you make calculations (ਗਣਹਿ) to obtain an auspicious date for the wedding (ਸਾਹਾ), but you do not contemplate.
Contemplate what? The answer is: ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ - that God is above these auspicious days.The one who meets the Guru - ਜਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ, realizes the (real) way (to ascertain auspicious days) - ਸੋਈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ. How? By following Gurmat, one realizes Gods Will. 

ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਸਚੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ - Pandit do not lie, speak the truth. Now it is clear from the context that the lie is about the calculations and auspicious dates. When egotism is removed with Shabd, then one finds his Home. (ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਬਦਿ ਘਰੁ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥)

Calculating and counting, the astrologer draws the horoscope. (ਗਣਿ ਗਣਿ ਜੋਤਕੁ ਕਾਂਡੀ ਕੀਨੀ ॥) He studies it and announces it, but he does not understand reality. ( ਪੜੈ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੀ ॥ ) The Word of the Guru's Shabad is above all.   Do not speak of anything else (i.e. astrology); it is all just ashes. (ਸਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੨॥)

And so on, till we arrive at the tuk I quoted: 

ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ

Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart; But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.

It is crystal clear from the opening line that the Guru addresses a Pandit regarding the calculations he makes to draw a birth chart to eventually fix an auspicious date for the marriage. Guru Sahib tells him that he does not realize that Parmatma is above these; as all days are created by God. The Guru encourages to speak about nothing else than GurShabad (in this context the Guru is referring to the kundlis). And the Guru continues till he says that instead of creating suspense or sorrow in your heart by supposed revelations of your future; instead embrace the Guru and remain in peace and comfort (by living in his Will and accepting Hukam).

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It is crystal clear from the opening line that the Guru addresses a Pandit regarding the calculations he makes to draw a birth chart to eventually fix an auspicious date for the marriage. Guru Sahib tells him that he does not realize that Parmatma is above these; as all days are created by God. The Guru encourages to speak about nothing else than GurShabad (in this context the Guru is referring to the kundlis). And the Guru continues till he says that instead of creating suspense or sorrow in your heart by supposed revelations of your future; instead embrace the Guru and remain in peace and comfort (by living in his Will and accepting Hukam).

The same applies to a doctor too. God is above medical science, He can cure any illness/disease. Why go for blood tests, urine tests, ultrasounds, x-rays, etc? Even blood test results, have the potential to cause anxiety or sorrow in heart. Keep faith in God and he will fix you.

Reality check - Only spiritually high people and Brahamgyanis can claim that they are above medical science, psychology, modern science, Astrology, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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