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SikhKhoj

Charitropakhyan etc written by Court Poets (historical)

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chatanga1 Ji can all of you kindly clarify whether you believe the 404 Tiya charitars (excluding Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib) to be the original personally-devised (unplagiarised) work of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj themself or if you believe that the 404 charitars are in fact translations of earlier historic Hindu sexual erotica stories?

I beleive them to be both. the work of Guru Sahib, based on translations of earlier stories.

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I humbly ask every single Dasam Granthi on this forum to provide proof for:

1) Guru Gobind Singh writing Charitropakhyan. Preferably from 1700-1800.

2) Guru Gobind Singh using Shyam as a pen name.

Neo, Dally, Amardeepu, Singh123, Chatangeh, etc

 

Chatanga, you got the Guru Prem Pad Parkash right? I will be using it for one of my next posts with some evidence so better keep it at hand if you got it.

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That should seal this debate, op initial position on this thread. Thanks pappiman.

Neo, I am seeing that you're changing your liberal colors once we start talking about Dasam Granth?

The topic title says HISTORICAL perspective. Why are you guys running left right? The topic is about the Charitars and other material being written by court poets or the Guru, not whether the Guru made it compulsory in Nitnem or whatever.

Stick to the topic, this rule also applies to you admin.

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Not court poets but Guru maharaj have translated it from original text.

Court poets did it according to Mehma Parkash (1776). Internal proof regarding Kab Shyam is also very solid because Kab Shyam was a court poet according to Mehma Parkash as well. I got one more proof regarding Kab Shyam being a court poet and not a pen name but I'll wait for all you Dasam Granthis to post some sources.

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Sikhkhoj:
You are the one who claim that the Mahima Prakash is in your favour. Therefore it is your responsobility to provide the text so we can all use it as a point of departure.

The same way Bhagat Singh provided the text from the Bansavalinama and I scannde pages from it to back up my points as we went along. Since this topic is about a specific sakhi in a specific book, the least you can do is to provide proper context for the discussion to took place.

Or did you expect a one way communication where you just post a source and says "this backs up my claim" lets discuss! with no one having the book? You actually want to sit and discuss a sakhi from a book where you dont even know if anyone has the book ?? Come on.. Lets do this the right way. You have the book, take picture with your phone and upload. Takes less than two minutes.

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 the woman is shown as immoral, deceiver...

you have proved to me that you are both, through your lies and attempted deceit on this forum.

Paapiman is a great one as an example how this deep rooted disdain towards women manifests...

yet you are so shameless in casting aspersions on others.

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Sikhkhoj:
You are the one who claim that the Mahima Prakash is in your favour. Therefore it is your responsobility to provide the text so we can all use it as a point of departure.

The same way Bhagat Singh provided the text from the Bansavalinama and I scannde pages from it to back up my points as we went along. Since this topic is about a specific sakhi in a specific book, the least you can do is to provide proper context for the discussion to took place.

Or did you expect a one way communication where you just post a source and says "this backs up my claim" lets discuss! with no one having the book? You actually want to sit and discuss a sakhi from a book where you dont even know if anyone has the book ?? Come on.. Lets do this the right way. You have the book, take picture with your phone and upload. Takes less than two minutes.

Whatever

Edited by SikhKhoj

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We have Maharajs word. Do we need to look elsewhere?

Admin cut. So many books say 'Patshahi 10' you believe in all of them?

Stop posting in this topic, you're not even trying to prove the historicity because you know you can't. Amardeep atleast tries to discuss from a historical perspective even though he is still held back by preconceived notions.

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What do you mean whatever? I'll repeat.

 

Sikhkhoj:
You are the one who claim that the Mahima Prakash is in your favour. Therefore it is your responsobility to provide the text so we can all use it as a point of departure.

The same way Bhagat Singh provided the text from the Bansavalinama and I scannde pages from it to back up my points as we went along. Since this topic is about a specific sakhi in a specific book, the least you can do is to provide proper context for the discussion to took place.

Or did you expect a one way communication where you just post a source and says "this backs up my claim" lets discuss! with no one having the book? You actually want to sit and discuss a sakhi from a book where you dont even know if anyone has the book ?? Come on.. Lets do this the right way. You have the book, take picture with your phone and upload. Takes less than two minutes.

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It does'nt print the whole sakhi. For some reason the fourth verse has been omitted and it ends at the tenth line. We need the whole sakhi if we are to discuss it's insights to the Chaubis Avatar and Charitro Pakhyan.
 

I dont really understand.. You should be thrilled to debate this topic since the sakhi is in your favour?

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I will post it, if you answer the following questions:

1) Do you have any source from the 1700 - 1800 period that says Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitropakhyan or Chaubis Avtar? I am not talking about Vidya Sagar, this that Granth. I want the specific names Charitars or Avtars or Bachitar Natak.

2) Do you have any historical proof that Shyam was Guru's pen name and not a court poet?

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Mate the burden is on you. You say this granth backs up your view point, so bring it. Lets see what it says.  This topic is about the Mahima Prakash - not about other writings of 18th century.

Cheers for posting. Im looking forward to reading the sakhi.

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It wasn't until I encountered a Singh online who told me in no uncertain terms that women were to sit quietly and learn at the Gurdwara and let the men do all the seva (aside from the kitchen of course) because women were the root of all immorality in the world, and told me that everything in the dasam granth was coming true... and as a woman I should learn to be submissive and follow men's leadership. 

Some people have certain points of views and twist everything they can to reinforce them. I don't think that bloke you encountered was any sort of 'exemplar' of typical Sikh thinking myself. He was probably a typical chauvinist as exists in all cultures. 

You totally negate other perspectives of the work other than your subjective 'negative portrayal of women' theory. I personally find the work very useful. If you live in the real world, you can find microcosms of what CP contains all around you. 

 

It's about people using people. It's about power and lust. It's about deception. Selfishness. Blindness. Across genders. I think it is brilliant to open people's eyes up to hidden dynamics that DO take place. Just because it may suggest some women do x, y and z - it's a big leap to extrapolate that it is suggesting that all women do this!

As for people misappropriating the contents: sadly that pretty much happens with all religious texts. 

 

I think you are approaching it with a deeply ingrained white, feminist perspective that you have become encultured with growing up. 

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Mate the burden is on you. You say this granth backs up your view point, so bring it. Lets see what it says.  This topic is about the Mahima Prakash - not about other writings of 18th century.

Cheers for posting. Im looking forward to reading the sakhi.

Seems like you learnt a new word, 'burden of proof'. Anyways forget that I'm posting anything if you do not answer my question. Answer my question first. I have given the page number and book title, it is your job to get it. If it is not there I'll leave this forum forever okay? Have never lied regarding sources, ever.

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This is getting childish. Are you playing games or are you being for real? So you say that this sakhi backs up your view, yet you aint gonna post it. Instead you post some english article that summaries it. We need the real deal otherwise there is no point. Its like you saying "This granth in this archive in India backs up my claim.. Now go find it and we shall discuss it afterwards".

 

Did you open this topic to debate?? How are we gonna debate it if there is no text for us to discuss? I dont think all readers have the book so do them a favour and scan the pages or insert the lines like Bhagat Singh and I did in the Bansavalinama thread.

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This is really starting to get odd.

So you create a topic, - make a claim that this particular granth supports you.. But before you are going to engage further, you start making demands before things can proceed? What??????

Just scan it and lets proceed... Give people the opportunity to see what the sakhi says

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If you're so desperate to read the Sakhi then answer the question.

I made the claim and gave the references. Anyone can verify it. I agreed to post the Sakhi, which I don't have too btw, if you answer the question.

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