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Erotica/Sexual Imagery in SSGGSJ (Guru Granth Sahib jee)


paapiman

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ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੨

ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੜੀਏ ਪਿਰ ਕਾ ਮਹਲੁ ਤਿਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥

Mention the above tuks to any non-Sikh Punjabi and he will, most likely, agree that there is sexual imagery involved in these verses. People on this forum, being Sikhs, know that it is referring to the love between, soul bride and husband God.

Similarly, Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee has deeper spiritual meanings. If one rejects it, for it being sexually explicit, then one will also have to reject the above verses of SSGGSJ.

Easy way out - If one has so much problem with tenth master's holy words, then one must leave Sikhism.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Seems like you have edited your post?

 

Somewhere you wrote 'Now there is historical proof that DG is not fully written by guru gobind Singh Ji' or something to that effect.

Wrong topic... lol.  That was in the restrict DG topics thread... 

Edit on this one was for a typo because I'm far from an expert tyipst (especially since I am awaiting surgery for my wrist)

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The way certain people get aghast with any mention of anything sexual says a lot about them. 

What about sexuality being natural and normal; but bizarre, twisted attitudes or actions acting upon it being the problem? 

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It does'nt seem that Sikhi had any embarasment in regards to sexual vocab etc. prior to the British invasion of India where victorian values were introduced. This also applies to India in general prior to the Muslim invasions also – though the British invasion was quite more severe. This also applies to the above tuks from Gurbani where such vocab is used without any shame or moderation.

 

In the Prem Sumarag Granth for instance it describes situations of female lust where fathers and brothers discuss these matters directly with the sister/daughter... The text does’nt talk about it in an awkward or unnatural way.

 

 

Edited by amardeep
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Exactly:

The way certain people talk here about the subject is as if they are frigid, prudes. lol

 

Isn't it remarkable - Brits came at the most sexually suppressed point in their history - infected Sikhs - but then got over it themselves - meanwhile we are still stuck in a mentality that they themselves have long since jettisoned.

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ਗੋਤਮੁ ਤਪਾ ਅਹਿਲਿਆ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਲੁਭਾਇਆ ॥

This is a very good topic you have created paapiman, because it is very relevant when talking about how some people perceive the wording in CharitarPakhiyan and believe that the Gurus could never have used such words. It reminds me of a time, when I was doing the Sikhi to the max hukamnama on screen, and the word "prostitute" came up in the english translation. The granthi avoided using the word, but the president had a go at me afterwards for putting it on and said that I should skip that line in future.

 

There is a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib where the term "stiff nipples" are used. Its there as a metaphor for someone who is young and full of emotions and stuff (i think), but the thing is it's there to teach.

Just like in school, you cannot be taught about reproduction/human body without using certain words.

 

 

You DO kow that what is meant by "Ravishing her Husband" that "her" is Soul-Bride and "Husband" is God... you DO know that don't you??? It has nothing to do with physical women and men and sex.  I'm sorry that you can't undertsand allegory Paapiman.

Really, I am appalled that even you would stoop this low Paapiman! 

 

But it isn't for everyone to understand. Look at the reaction from admin cut. It's just so hollow, it sound like a admin cut woman scolding her child for something. "Really, I am appalled..." Dear oh dear.

 

 

Paapiman, you just took Gurbani which is speaking about the relationship and union between Soul-Bride and Husband Lord and turned it into mere porn.

And like some deranged inadequate the admin cut just keeps on and on.

 

You have crossed the line Paapiman and you just effectively disgraced yourself in front of everyone.

What a hypocrit. She disgraced herself a long time ago on this forum, and still hung around to admin cut.

On the other hand, paapiman you have brought a good topic to the forum, and after some of your recent efforts, it certainly is something I hope we will see more of.

 

 

Edited by amardeep
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I have never lied.  Your own copy and paste of the PMs prove that.  You PMd me to harrass me not the other way around. I NEVER contacted you... YOU contacted me... AKSING ME TO LEAVE THE FORUM.  How immature AND rude. 

And you continue to do it over and over - you are immature and if the Mods do not do something about your constant accusations and degrading remarks then this site is not what I thought it was. 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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There is a shabad in Guru Granth Sahib where the term "stiff nipples" are used. Its there as a metaphor for someone who is young and full of emotions and stuff (i think), but the thing is it's there to teach.

 

Bro, here they are:

 

ਸਸੁੜਿ ਸੁਹੀਆ ਕਿਵ ਕਰੀ ਨਿਵਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਥਣੀ

O mother-in-law, how can I bow? Because of my stiff nipples, I cannot bow.

------

ਸੇ ਭੀ ਢਹਦੇ ਡਿਠੁ ਮੈ ਮੁੰਧ ਨ ਗਰਬੁ ਥਣੀ ॥੧

- I have seen them come crumbling down. O bride, do not be so proud of your nipples. ||1||

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Guest paapiman zindabad

Brilliant paapiman throw all the erotica you can find in these nastiks face so that nobody dares to deny that all the sexual stories in Charitropakhiyan were written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj

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Guest paapiman zindabad

What this thread proves is that SDGSJ should be prakash alongside SGGS at all Gurdwara's not just Hazur Sahib but in every Gurdwara in the West. If the committees don't do it we should make our own Gurdwarae

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Even though i agree discussions are good , but these type of discussions i feel is breaking the panth , you have people

1. For Dasam Granth ji 

2. Anti Dasam Granth ji

3. in the middle

4. only for Sri Guru granth sahib ji

5. For none

In summary from all the posts , my understanding is that

One must be at a certain spiritual level to fully understand the true meaning . How is this achieved ?

Should there be a caveat in place , stating one must have had proper santhiya of both granths for x amount of years before they start preaching / having dialogue with the sangat as not to misguide them ? ( Like Bhai Pinderpal Singh) 

Should the granths be easily/readily available online/other sources as the normal "Joe Bloggs" reading the granth , especially the english translation will take the meaning literary and question and question its authenticity . Or does read and follow its teachings ...period no questions asked. 

If they do ask questions , who do they ask ? ( Forums , Granthis , mates and how legitimate will they be ?)

The questions asked should they be put in way asking for answers ? 

Then you get some , who get all defensive and abusive and attack personally due to one questioning the context according to their own psyche.

Where does one draw the line ?

 

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Chatanga: I have edited your insults away.

Tyrant!

I have never lied.  Your own copy and paste of the PMs prove that.  You PMd me to harrass me not the other way around. I NEVER contacted you... YOU contacted me... AKSING ME TO LEAVE THE FORUM.  How immature AND rude. 

And there you have it. You lied because you said I told you to leave the forum, whereas I had asked you. I asked you to C and P the conversation in a post so the members could see whether I had asked you or told you. You didn't have the courage to do it because you are a liar and you knew your lies would be exposed.

Also I had asked you to set the record about our conversation but you refused because you knew you had lied. Then you tried the next trick by trying to deflect the conversation onto another member. When that failed then you turned to emotional trickery accusing me of having made you cry. You see me contacting you as harassment as I'm sure you see all PMs as harassment.

Immature is creating some last post rubbish about leaving. Rude is creating lies about a conversation.

 

And you continue to do it over and over - you are immature and if the Mods do not do something about your constant accusations and degrading remarks then this site is not what I thought it was. 

 

 it's nothing to do with the forum. the fact that you are a white woman has given you more leeway on this forum than other members would receive. Maybe I've just shown you a mirror concerning degrading remarks, as your remarks against the DT have been constant and degrading as well.

 

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Okay let me explain something to you.... you 'asked' no more than say a police officer asks a pulled over driver to 'please show his license and registration'  Nobody asks someone else nicely to leave a public forum.  If someone is doing that, then there is mal intent in it plain and simple... the simple fact that you thought it was appropriate at all to do that is shocking, even worse you still don't think you did anything wrong!

None of my remarks about DDT have been degrading... everything I have pointed out can be found on their own website.  It is not degarding or vular as you put it, to point out things which are on their own website, and in their own RM and explain how those things do not fall in line with equality taught in Gurbani. I have pointed out:

- Women barred from all sorts of seva by DDT including kirtan ragee, granthi, chaur sahib seva, akhand paath pothis, panj pyaras, even making karah prashad. I can show you in their own RM where it says 'Singh' for all of these things. My own opinion is that this is not following teachings of equality taught by our Gurus.
- I have poinetd out in DDT's RM where it says that wives must see their husband as a God and serve him as one. While he is told to see her as only a faithful servant. Again this is actually in their RM.  And I also pointed out my own opinion on hos this is very unfair as husband and wife are told in Gurbani to see each other as equals... as one soul in two bodies.
- Seeing women as impure because of menstruation (even in light of modern hygiene products)

I don't think any of the above qualifies as 'vulgar' or degrading.  I can actually back up these claims with screenshots from the Gurmat Rehet Maryada if you like.  Or just ask Paapiman, he can verify for you that they are in fact true (as his Mother actually bows to his father because she is below him in the status heirarchy - and he is the one who openly stated this on this forum) So yes, DDT does practice discrimination against Sikh women. It's not even deniable... They don't even deny it on their own website.  So how is any of that insulting or degrading???  The fcat that I disagree with them is degrading?? Why should I agree with them over other jathas, wouldn't that be 'degrading' to the other jathas and Akal Takht?? And most obvious, how are the above restrictions NOT degrading to women???

I have never said anything deragatory about them, or hateful... just that I strongly disagree with their position on women and so I could never take Amrit from them because I can not put myself as inferior to men.  Sorry but I do not think our Gurus ever intended that. The empowered women. Can you see Mai Bhago being told she isn't 'allowed' to do the all of the above because she was a girl?? That she was expected to sit quietly and let the men do all the religious duties (except of course langar)??

How is ANY of what I said degrading?? Because I think men shouldn't be put on a pedistal over women and given privilege over women? If so, then that's just your Ego speaking...

 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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.............then that's just your Ego speaking...

 

Isn't your EGO also working through your messages? Think about it?

I'm NOT taking sides with you or chatanga but you read your messages. And please stop these arguments on this topic and kindly use your debating powers somewhere else (open a new topic or thread).

My personal thinking is that you're trapped in your own world and don't want to come out of it. Just like a frog living in a well and refused to the presence of external world. (NO pun intended). The world is NOT about Man-vs-Woman and I know that you'll respond that you believe in equality and everyone else is not; but in reality you're just on the other-side (of the same coin). You claim to see beyond physical aspects (Man vs Woman) yet your messages give entirely different indication (i.e you're just the other side).

Please channel your power to some good work where someone can be benefitted. I don't think being in Army, Emergency team volunteering, Debating, Practicing Sikh, part of Gurdwara committee, some limited experiences, OBE etc. has anything to do with helping people and Spiritually uplifting yourself along with other people. It sounds like these things are just proving an secret ego booster for you where you're not even aware of it. Welcome to this world of illusions!!

Do something which would you help you AND the other person Spiritually and accept that there is NO guarantee that you're more pious/spiritual than the other person who you're debating with. You may or may not be more spiritual than the other, but debating while thinking that you're right and only you do see the whole truth is NOT the right way on this Spiritual path.

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wow so my entire life and everyting I do is worthless? 
 

 

and please include me in that list. It's point of view from broader sense of what we're doing here in this world.

Yes, it seems like from the posts (that you've posted) and from introspection of mine side that both of us were/are doing worthless. We're just doing whatever we've been scripted to do, may be sometimes doing some small good but majorly we're wasting our lives. In other words, we have been doing what the circumstances/environment/thinking are forcing us to do. So, explain to me: Where is the "I" who is dong good?

My genuine request to you is come out of the false illusion that you're doing something special (and as always me included).

Think about it:

  • Aren't you paid for your Army services? So, how you're helping? Identify the real enjoyer here.
  • Aren't you paid for your services to Gurudwara Committee with a BIG payout? And before you reply with "I don't have any penny from Gurudwara funds", let me clear that I'm talking of Ego as reward.
  • I'm also paid VERY heavily when I post some thing OR help someone. In the case of "posts" I DO look for "likes" to feel good, so I'm feeding my Ego. And in case of helping someone medically, again I DO look for appreciation. Again feeding my Ego. So, in order words, I'm NOT doing good to help someone. I'm just doing that because "I" like it, "I" feel happy/satisfied; and again when I feel satisfied, only when my EGO is boosted (however hidden it may be).

The same goes for "THE YOU", my friend. e.g If a parrot closes his eyes on seeing the cat thinking that as he cannot see cat, so cat cannot see him. Is it worth? NO, because as cat can see the parrot and therefore can eat him. It does not matter if parrot's eyes are closed or not. Same way, it does NOT matter if we close our eyes towards our internal hidden issues or false illusions; at-last we're bound to loose if we don't do anything to get rid of the real core issues.

Edited by das
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Don't forge that also includes you Singh123456777 everything you do doesn't matter either!

 

If you see a lot of my posts on sikh sangat I write that everything we do is meaningless and the only thing that matters is naam. I already know but you still want to cling onto your beliefs even if they are wrong.

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