paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Using one's own intellect is perfectly fine.It is fine to use one's intellect if and only if, it conforms with Gurmat. Satguru jee has ordered us to leave the mat of our mind and adopt the way of the Gurmukhs. You admit you lack gyan on Gumat. I assume this means Sikhi in general, so why are you on here discussion and debating then? The Scholars have done the work for you. Feel free to follow them.Daas has the opportunity to praise the great scholars of the panth on this forum. FYI - We have had scholar Brahamgyanis in our panth too. You just admitted they may be wrong so it would be polite if rather than asking for Scholarly backing simply try and counter the points yourself or using the knowledge you possess/resources you muster.Scholarly opinion counts. Even in the court of law, expert witnesses testimony carries weight. People have the right to pass their opinions, if they wish. But, a Sikh must make sure that his opinion, is in line with Sikh ethics and values. Even, fools and illiterate people can have opinions. Can you imagine, if all of them start acting like scholars and using their gyan to do arths of Gurbani?Btw, how did you like this arth?"New color red, Rawan came to bed"People are debating to the best of their ability. If their wrong then its a simple case of proving them wrong easily. A instance might occur where the person could actually be right and the scholar wrong. If a person passes a personal opinion, which seems wrong, other people can provide rebuttals with their personal opinions.But, the situation is different in the case of a scholarly work. Personal opinion is not enough. One will have to provide counter scholarly evidence. A Brahamgyani does not need to do that, but how many Brahamgyanis do you think are there on this forum?Bhul chuk maaf I don't want to take part in this debate. I just feel that rather than asking for Scholarly backing, prove the points wrong with whatever you can.A person on this thread has claimed that certain translations are wrong. He/She needs to provide proof. The arths provided by that person don't make sense, when a sentence is formed. A person will minimal knowledge of Gurbani can say that too."New color red, Rawan came to bed"Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 17, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 It is fine to use one's intellect if and only if, it conforms with Gurmat. Satguru jee has ordered us to leave the mat of our mind and adopt the way of the Gurmukhs. Daas has the opportunity to praise the great scholars of the panth on this forum. FYI - We have had scholar Brahamgyanis in our panth too. Scholarly opinion counts. Even in the court of law, expert witnesses testimony carries weight. People have the right to pass their opinions, if they wish. But, a Sikh must make sure that his opinion, is in line with Sikh ethics and values. Even, fools and illiterate people can have opinions. Can you imagine, if all of them start acting like scholars and using their gyan to do arths of Gurbani?Btw, how did you like this arth?"New color red, Rawan came to Bed"If a person passes a personal opinion, which seems wrong, other people can provide rebuttals with their personal opinions.But, the situation is different in the case of a scholarly work. Personal opinion is not enough. One will have to provide counter scholarly evidence. A Brahamgyani does not need to do that, but how many Brahamgyanis do you think are there on this forum?Bhul chuk maafA person on this thread has claimed that certain translations are wrong. He/She needs to provide proof. The arths provided by that person don't make sense, when a sentence is formed. A person will minimal knowledge of Gurbani can say that too."New color red, Rawan came to Bed"Bhul chuk maaf I agree, our Opinons need to be in line with Gurmat.I agree, a Brahmgyani doesn't need to provide Evidence. However Not all Scholars are Brahmgyanis. A Brahmgyani is one who knows all. Why on earth would you refer to them as Scholars? A Brahmgyani is enough to assert their far above Scholars. Exceptionally so in-fact. Regarding the translation I already stated my views on it, Mera Laal=My beloved. You just seem to be operating under the impression they are infallible. This is hardly a case of being a Brahmgyani. For all we know Waheguru may have blessed the illiterate with the correct answer in that instance. As I already stated I have no desire to take part in this debate, I merely pointed out that asking someone for a scholar is rather rude because you automatically assert when it comes to Gurbani (which is far more complex than a court of law) Scholars are the only person who have some weight when it comes to translations. I agree with you, if someone provides evidence for their claims then it counts. However treating Scholars as the only guides in Gurmat Gyan is short-sighted indeed.I sense a circular motion appearing so I'll repeat what I meant by my post. Yes Scholars hold some weight, however if someone can provide evidence, another alternative then they hold just as much weight. Being a Scholar doesn't automatically make you right, Rather than asking to post "scholars" , ask for evidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Guru HarKrishan Ji blessed an illiterate to the point a Scholar couldn't hold a candle to the depth he understood the Gita compared to him. If you think Scholars are infallible then be my guest. Tree jee - That sakhi of eight master does not mean that we should start disrespecting the scholars or stop taking their advice. A scholar, being a human, might make a mistake. There is no doubt about that. But Rather than asking others to present other scholars, counter the points with your own Gyan. And where would that gyan come from? One learns gyan from other people. Obviously, a person does make connections.Also, you do realize that one's own gyan can be seriously flawed, until a person reaches very high spiritual levels. A Brahamgyani can use all his gyan as it will be pure, unlike mine. This is the gyan which can be used anywhere and at anytime. Ordinary humans should be cautious, before using their mat.Do you want people to spread their flawed gyan in Gurudwaras and cause confusion among thousands of people?Anyways, we are going off-topic. Please start a new topic, if you want to discuss gyan in details.Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 17, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) I agree, a Brahmgyani doesn't need to provide Evidence. However Not all Scholars are Brahmgyanis. A Brahmgyani is one who knows all. Why on earth would you refer to them as Scholars? A Brahmgyani is enough to assert their far above Scholars. Exceptionally so in-fact. There have been scholars in our panth, who have reached Brahamgyan. Not all scholars reach Brahamgyan and neither are all Brahamgaynis scholars, before they reach Brahamgyan. Regarding the translation I already stated my views on it, Mera Laal=My beloved. You just seem to be operating under the impression they are infallible. This is hardly a case of being a Brahmgyani.Daas never asked you for evidence. I merely pointed out that asking someone for a scholar is rather rude because you automatically assert when it comes to Gurbani (which is far more complex than a court of law) Scholars are the only person who have some weight when it comes to translations.How is asking for scholarly evidence from a person rude, especially if he/she is claiming that certain translation (done by scholars) is wrong? I agree with you, if someone provides evidence for their claims then it counts. However treating Scholars as the only guides in Gurmat Gyan is short-sighted indeed.I sense a circular motion appearing so I'll repeat what I meant by my post.How about Saint-Scholars? They should be excellent guides. Being a Scholar doesn't automatically make you right, Rather than asking to post "scholars" , ask for evidence. There is a chance that a scholar might make a mistake. Even evidence is good, but scholarly evidence would be better. Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 17, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Mera Laal, does mean My Beloved. It was a common term of affection, usually for mothers and their children. Mata Gujjar Kaur jee used to refer tenth master as "Laal jee".Dhan Guru Nanak - Toon hee Nirankar.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 In my humble opinionThese translations are wrong. The arth is as follows:ਨਵ ਰੰਗ ਲਾਲੁ ਸੇਜ ਰਾਵਣ ਆਇਆ ॥My Darling Beloved is new and fresh; He has come to my bed to enjoy me - My Darling Beloved - refers to God.- ਸੇਜ - refers to heart or antaykaran. Even if this arth is metaphorically referring to the love between a soul bride and God, one cannot deny that sexual imagery is used in the verse.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 What is wrong, if a mother calls her son as a darling? Daas does not find it weird. Even, in English it is used. Is English your mother tongue?Quotemy darling child.Unquote [1][1] - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/darling?s=tThe link has already been provided above. There is a Hindi (one of the languages used in Gurbani) translation for it. Two translations, from two different scholars have been provided. Do you think, you have more knowledge than, both of them? So you are saying that both of them are wrong? Again, words have multiple meanings. How hard is that to understand? There might be multiple meanings to the above tuk. Only one arth has been provided.Bhul chuk maafI've spoken English all my life. My education has been in English. I score pretty high on all English tests (IEOLTS, TOEFL) and I've got tons of friends from the West. I understand western culture pretty well. Of course there will be a translation to the word darling however the translation will never be 100% accurate as darling is a unique word in the English language. In every language in the world, there will be a unique word whereby you will never be able to translate 100%. As an example let's take the word 'gwailo' from the Cantonese language. The literal translation is 'white ghost' but that is not what it means. It actually means foreigner or white man. Therefor 'gwailo' is a unique word in the Cantonese language.Darling is generally used among couples. Just like sugar, honey...etc,etc. Westerners are more open with expressions of love but Punjabis aren't. Punjabis are so conservatives they don't even use the word 'pyar' and resort to using words like 'laal' which is a metaphor for love from the color red.There are no 'translations' to Rawan as Rawan is a character. I don't see how you could replace Rawan with something else in the name of 'poetic license'. Perhaps, maybe but i don't see it.Scholars are not Gods. They have a doctorate at best. No big deal. You are simply using them simply because they support your poor argument. Sorry but at this point I believe they are wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 I've spoken English all my life. My education has been in English. I score pretty high on all English tests (IEOLTS, TOEFL) and I've got tons of friends from the West. I understand western culture pretty well. Of course there will be a translation to the word darling however the translation will never be 100% accurate as darling is a unique word in the English language. In every language in the world, there will be a unique word whereby you will never be able to translate 100%. As an example let's take the word 'gwailo' from the Cantonese language. The literal translation is 'white ghost' but that is not what it means. It actually means foreigner or white man. Therefor 'gwailo' is a unique word in the Cantonese language.Darling is generally used among couples. Just like sugar, honey...etc,etc. Westerners are more open with expressions of love but Punjabis aren't. Punjabis are so conservatives they don't even use the word 'pyar' and resort to using words like 'laal' which is a metaphor for love from the color red.There are no 'translations' to Rawan as Rawan is a character. I don't see how you could replace Rawan with something else in the name of 'poetic license'. Perhaps, maybe but i don't see it.Scholars are not Gods. They have a doctorate at best. No big deal. You are simply using them simply because they support your poor argument. Sorry but at this point I believe they are wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Paapiman,I suspect you're not exposed much to western people and culture which is why you do not understand the context of the darling and how it's used. Your understanding is something out of a book and not through interaction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 I've spoken English all my life. My education has been in English. I score pretty high on all English tests (IEOLTS, TOEFL) and I've got tons of friends from the West. I understand western culture pretty well. Of course there will be a translation to the word darling however the translation will never be 100% accurate as darling is a unique word in the English language. In every language in the world, there will be a unique word whereby you will never be able to translate 100%. As an example let's take the word 'gwailo' from the Cantonese language. The literal translation is 'white ghost' but that is not what it means. It actually means foreigner or white man. Therefor 'gwailo' is a unique word in the Cantonese language.Darling is generally used among couples. Just like sugar, honey...etc,etc. Westerners are more open with expressions of love but Punjabis aren't. Punjabis are so conservatives they don't even use the word 'pyar' and resort to using words like 'laal' which is a metaphor for love from the color red.There are no 'translations' to Rawan as Rawan is a character. I don't see how you could replace Rawan with something else in the name of 'poetic license'. Perhaps, maybe but i don't see it.Scholars are not Gods. They have a doctorate at best. No big deal. You are simply using them simply because they support your poor argument. Sorry but at this point I believe they are wrong. Please provide scholarly evidence. Your Punjabi is limited (according to you), so you have to provide something concrete, rather than personal opinions.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Guest speaks like Satkiran. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 I think 'precious' might be a good alternative translation for laal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 Guest speaks like Satkiran.Antarjami Mahapurkho.Dhan Guru NanakBhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Guest speaks like Satkiran.Daas won't be surprised, if it is Satkirin (not 100% certain, if it is her or not) . A scholar once told me that some women do engage in secret (Gupt) activities. This is another pertinent reason, Satguru jee recited the bani of Sri Charitropakhain Sahib jee. Once a person understands this Gurbani, it is very hard for that person to become a victim of wily women.Dhan Dhan Dhan Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee Maharaj.Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 17, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 Antarjami Mahapurkho.Dhan Guru NanakBhul chuk maafDon't call me a mahapurkh again or else. I'm not worthy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 A scholar once told me that some women do engage in secret (Gupt) activities. LOL you are one funny geeza!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Secondly, as per my understanding what is written in SGGS Ji is allegory or metaphors and not explicit. Whereas from what I've read on the stories from this site from Dasam Granth, they are explicit. Please educate yourselves on the difference. One are metaphos and the other are stories/tales. This thread is a poor attempt to find parallels between SGGS Ji and Dasam Granth.The below is from the life story of Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Kirpal Singh jee (previous head of Amritsari Taksal). QuoteThe students soon realized how difficult Dasam Granth was. Not only was its language very difficult but the metaphors and allegories were so intertwined that it amazed them at the genius of Guru Gobind Singh who in a relatively short span of his life, a major portion which he spent fighting battles and starting the Khalsa brotherhood, could compose such exquisite poetry also.Unquote [1] [1] - Life Stories of Great Sikh Saints Sangat jee - Just imagine - Students, who most likely, would have learned the exegesis of SSGGSJ, studied works of Bhai Gurdas jee, etc, are finding it difficult to understand SDGSJ. This clearly illustrates the amount of knowledge required to understand SDGSJ. Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 19, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) There is a chance that a scholar might make a mistake. Even evidence is good, but scholarly evidence would be better. Bhul chuk maafScholars are only as good as the material they study... Case in point what if that material was adulterated with other material for the self serving purposes of some?? What if those scholars interpret things for their own self serving purposes even in light of what they studied?? They are only human after all and all humans are not immune to skewing things to their favour.I would much rather study the said material myself and apply actual experience. Relying completely on the words of others is dangerous... Edited September 20, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Guest speaks like Satkiran.Nope that wasn't me as I was in India at the time with very limited internet only when I had wifi connection at a hotel etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 A scholar once told me that some women do engage in secret (Gupt) activities. This is another pertinent reason, Satguru jee recited the bani of Sri Charitropakhain Sahib jee. Once a person understands this Gurbani, it is very hard for that person to become a victim of wily women. And (some) men don't also engage in secret (Gupt) activities? What about warning for women about these men who do that so that women don't become victims of "wily men"?? Your post makes it sound like only women do these things and only men need to be warned about them. When men are just as prone to doing these things as women are!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Another tuk which seems to have sexual imagery and hence can be easily misinterpreted by a fool. ਅਨਦੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥Literally it means - enjoy with beautiful women. Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 20, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Don't call me a mahapurkh again or else. I'm not worthy. Bakhs lo Singh saab.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh123456777 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Nope that wasn't me as I was in India at the time with very limited internet only when I had wifi connection at a hotel etc. sorry for the mistake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnSikhGirl Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 sorry for the mistake. It's ok, and besides, I was there on vacation, being married, interacting with his family, and taking Amrit... do you really think arguing with Paapiman was on my top list of things to do while I was there?? LOL Now that I am back however he he he he 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I would much rather study the said material myself and apply actual experience. Relying completely on the words of others is dangerous... So glad to see you've learned a valuable on relying on the words of others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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