Are Jatts/Jaats Shudar?

[paapiman]

Posted 22 hours ago (edited) · Report post

  22 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Actually jatts are vashiyas not shudras. You are mistaken brother.

Bro, according to Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj (greatest Sikh scholar), they are not Vaish. He did not mention them in the Vaish category. Obviously, they are not Brahmans or Khatris. They are Shudars. Bhai saab jee has used the word "Jaat" (which is the Hindi version of the word "Jatt") in his vaaran.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited 21 hours ago by paapiman

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 21 hours ago (edited) · Report post

  22 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Actually jatts are vashiyas not shudras. You are mistaken brother.

Pauri 11 (Vaaran Bhai Gurdaas) heading is "Vaish caste". Jatts are not mentioned in it.

Pauri 12  (Vaaran Bhai Gurdaas) heading is "Castes and working classes". Jatts are mentioned in this Pauri. Please have a look below.

Additional note: The line where Jatts are mentioned, Chimbay are also mentioned. We know from history and Gurbani that Srimaan Bhagat Naamdev jee Maharaaj was born in a Chimba family and was refereed to as a Shudar by Brahmans.

 

ਕਿਤੜੇ ਸੂਦ ਸਦਾਇਦੇ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਕਾਇਥ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੇ।

Kitarhay Sood Sadaaiay Kitarhay Kaaid Likhanahaaray.

कितड़े सूद सदाइए कितड़े काइथ लिखणहारे ।

Many are Sud and many are kaith, the bookkeepers.

1 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੧

 

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਹੀ ਬਾਣੀਏ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਭਾਭੜਿਆ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੇ।

Kaytarhiaan Hee Baaneeay Kitarhay Bhaabharhiaan Souniaaray.

केतड़िआं ही बाणीए कितड़े भाभड़िआं सुनिआरे ।

Many are traders and many more Jain goldsmiths.

2 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੨

 

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਲਖ ਜਾਟ ਹੋਇ ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਛੀਂਬੇ ਸੈਸਾਰੇ।

Kaytarhiaan Lakh Jat Hoi Kaytarhiaan Chheenbai Saisaaray.

केतड़िआं लख जट होइ केतड़िआं छींबै सैसारे ।

In this world millions are Jats and millions are calico printers.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੮ ਪਉੜੀ ੧੨ ਪੰ. ੩

 

Source - http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/8/pauri/12

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited 21 hours ago by paapiman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted 21 hours ago · Report post

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishya

According to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 21 hours ago · Report post

  21 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishya

According to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc.

Daas heard a Sikh scholar too, who mentioned Jatts as Vaish, but bro, we have to give Bhai Gurdaas Vaaran more credibility than a scholar or Puranas.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted 21 hours ago (edited) · Report post

  21 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishya

According to the Hindu Puranas etc the shudras are supposed to take care of the other three Varnas. The jatt is a vaishya according to Hindu Puranas etc.

The below is regarding Pandit Gulab Singh jee:

Quote

When his teacher there discovered that he was not a Brahman, but a Jatt, he turned him out of his seminar)7 with the rebuke that, being a sudra, he had no right to Sanskrit and Vedic education.

Unquote[1]

[1] - http://www.thesikhencyclopedia.com/biographies/sikh-mystics-and-traditional-scholars/gulab-singh-pandit

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited 20 hours ago by paapiman

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted 19 hours ago · Report post

੧੨ : ਗੋਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਿਰਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਜਾਤਾਂ

This means different gots and different jaats. 

ਕਿਤੜੇ ਸੂਦ ਸਦਾਇਦੇ ਕਿਤੜੇ ਕਾਇਥ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰੇ।
Kitarhay Sood Sadaaiay Kitarhay Kaaid Likhanahaaray.
कितड़े सूद सदाइए कितड़े काइथ लिखणहारे ।
Many are Sud and many are kaith, the bookkeepers.

Here it means that they are many shudras and bookkeepers. Notice how they are separate. If they were one varna then bhai gurdas Ji would have written many bookkeepers are shudras etc and so on. He is just stating more jaats etc.

 

Also there is historical evidence that jatts actually came from Rajputs.  

I will post it shortly

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 10 hours ago · Report post

  18 hours ago, paapiman said:

The fact remains that Jatts were not put in Brahman, Khatri or Vaish categories, by Bhai saab jee. Most likely, they belong to the Shudar varna.

Some Jatts do have Rajput blood in them.

Bhul chuk maaf

http://www.academia.edu/1092421/Deeper_Roots_Of_The_Gill_Bhatti_Sidhu_Brar_Toor_and_Related_Jat_and_Rajput_Clans

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Some more sources which prove that Jatts/Jaats belonged to the Shudar varna:

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 16, 2015 by paapiman

[Guest Pakistani Jatt]

No Jatts are not low caste. Your Sikh scriptures Bhai Gurdas Vaaran are clearly fake. The first Prime Minister of Pakistan was a Jatt. The last premier of undivided Punjab was a Muslim Jatt.

Jatts, Gujjars, Baloch, Pathan are tribes not castes.

Castes are Butts, Chinioti Sheikhs, etc

[Koi]

No Jatts are not low caste. Your Sikh scriptures Bhai Gurdas Vaaran are clearly fake. The first Prime Minister of Pakistan was a Jatt. The last premier of undivided Punjab was a Muslim Jatt.

Jatts, Gujjars, Baloch, Pathan are tribes not castes.

Castes are Butts, Chinioti Sheikhs, etc

yes   they are 

[jaikaara]

Jatts are a mixture ..some of our gotra the bhatti rajputs are now jatts ..also i got friends who are rathore which means they are of rajput origin

[paapiman]

Jatts are a mixture ..some of our gotra the bhatti rajputs are now jatts ..also i got friends who are rathore which means they are of rajput origin

Bro, even some Tarkhan surnames are in common with Rajputs.

Important point: Most likely, Tarkhans and Jatts were considered Shudars, during the time of Satguru jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Your Sikh scriptures Bhai Gurdas Vaaran are clearly fake.

Please provide evidence. Bhai Gurdas jee Maharaaj is the greatest Sikh scholar.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest Doaba Jatt]

Jatts are shudra and Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaaran were used as proof recently to classify Jatts as OBC backward caste recently.

So Jatts are officially a backward caste despite some rich Jatts also like Badal

[jaikaara]

I personally have inquired about gotras and a dalit community by the name of meghwal has the same gotras as ours ..the fact is ..it is purely about the opportunities someone had and some didn't ..those who didn't got bundled up together .

The kshatris and the shudras have a very little division ...we the bhatti rajputs have gujjar origins ..its a different thing that the community and sub communities amongst them will deny this since they want to differed from the Gujjars due to class differences.

Jatt Ahir Gujjar Rajput have the same origin.

[paapiman]

Below is an extract from "History of the Sikhs" by Major Henry Court, which again proves that Jatts belong to Shudar varna.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is it one of those that tend to be antithetical to jats out of petty resentment and bigotry?

Jats do farm work.  That is a Vaish category.  

By saying they are Sudra, the meaning is that they have not/do not take Brahmanical initiation (sacred thread).

The Bhai Gurdas verse you quote doesn't prove your point.  It is a list of castes.  If I say "Brahmins and Shudras worship God", that does not mean I am saying Brahmins are Shudras.

Nothing wrong with shudras etc. 

[Guest Banta Singh]

Jatts are a separate tribe. In ancient times they had their own system of leadership called the panchayat. They never submitted to Brahmanical rule unlike others in the Indian subcontinent.

Anyway you can argue otherwise and type on your keyboard till your fingers go numb, it won't change the fact that Jatts don't subscribe to your classification of them. Go try getting your Brahmin/Khatri son or daughter married to theirs and you're see first hand what they think of your 'high' caste. So it doesn't really matter what you think of them. They don't need your validation of them to feel secure of themselves.

Jatts are arguably the most successful among Sikhs. Jatts are one of the first few to embrace Sikhism. Jatts via Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the 13 Jatt misls were the first power in the Indian subcontinent to actually beat invaders and created a territory right up to Afghanistan.

Sikh Jatts have a sense of identity and unity that other castes in Punjab don't seem to exhibit.  

 

[jaikaara]

3 hours ago, Guest Banta Singh said:

Jatts are a separate tribe. In ancient times they had their own system of leadership called the panchayat. They never submitted to Brahmanical rule unlike others in the Indian subcontinent.

Anyway you can argue otherwise and type on your keyboard till your fingers go numb, it won't change the fact that Jatts don't subscribe to your classification of them. Go try getting your Brahmin/Khatri son or daughter married to theirs and you're see first hand what they think of your 'high' caste. So it doesn't really matter what you think of them. They don't need your validation of them to feel secure of themselves.

Jatts are arguably the most successful among Sikhs. Jatts are one of the first few to embrace Sikhism. Jatts via Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the 13 Jatt misls were the first power in the Indian subcontinent to actually beat invaders and created a territory right up to Afghanistan.

Sikh Jatts have a sense of identity and unity that other castes in Punjab don't seem to exhibit.  

 

See there is always 2 sides of a coin, i do agree that Jatts are independent of brahmanical influence however the lop side is they did worst than what brahmins did and are still doing with the Mazhbis..any caste violence cases you take up the Jatts are involved...the Jatts are not of one single tribe ..our gotra is Bhatti and that is found amongst Jatts too. My friend is a Rathaur Jatt ..Rathaurs are Rajput origin too. ..i admire their pride but do not admire their arrogance. One can be good in one thing and the other will be good in something else.

Naa Hum channgge na bura koi....

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, Guest Banta Singh said:

They never submitted to Brahmanical rule

What Brahminical rule? When was there ever a Brahminical rule?

Where are these Brahmin kings and rulers you speak of?

[paapiman]

On 4/11/2016 at 10:25 PM, Guest Banta Singh said:

Jatts are arguably the most successful among Sikhs. Jatts are one of the first few to embrace Sikhism. Jatts via Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the 13 Jatt misls were the first power in the Indian subcontinent to actually beat invaders and created a territory right up to Afghanistan.

Guest jee - Sikhism did plenty, to uplift the status of Jatts. It is the greatness of our Satgurus (of Khatri origin) that these low caste (so-called) Shudars were turned into warriors/kings/saints, etc.

If one claims that Jatts contributed greatly to the Panth, it makes sense, but then one will also have to agree that they have caused massive damage too. Tyrants (of Jatt origin) have possibly killed hundreds of thousands of Sikhs.

 

On 4/11/2016 at 10:25 PM, Guest Banta Singh said:

Sikh Jatts have a sense of identity and unity that other castes in Punjab don't seem to exhibit.  

You have to remember Paaji that Jatts are a majority in the Panth. They are huge, when it comes to numbers, unlike other castes.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest guest]

Paapiman you still didnt say your caste.  It is one of those that resent Jatts having esteem?  I think you arent interested in accuracy just putting them down.

53 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Guest jee - Sikhism did plenty, to uplift the status of Jatts. It is the greatness of our Satgurus (of Khatri origin) that these low caste Shudars were turned into warriors/kings/saints, etc.

If one claims that Jatts contributed greatly to the Panth, it makes sense, but then one will also have to agree that they have caused massive damage too. Tyrants (of Jatt origin) have possibly killed hundreds of thousands of Sikhs.

 

You have to remember Paaji that Jatts are majority in the Panth. They are huge, when it comes to numbers, unlike other castes.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Where did they kill hundrerds of thousands of sikhs?

Unlike other caste groups, it doesnt bother Jatts that Gurus were all Khatri.  Whereas oher groups have created religions with religious founders of their own caste.

Infact, the Jatts embraced sikhism and stayed loyal to it, unlike other castes, from the start. 

 

 

[paapiman]

11 hours ago, Guest Banta Singh said:

Anyway you can argue otherwise and type on your keyboard till your fingers go numb, it won't change the fact that Jatts don't subscribe to your classification of them. Go try getting your Brahmin/Khatri son or daughter married to theirs and you're see first hand what they think of your 'high' caste. So it doesn't really matter what you think of them. They don't need your validation of them to feel secure of themselves.

The facts cannot be changed. According to the caste system, Brahmins/Khatris belong to high castes (so-called) and Jatts belong to the lowest caste (so-called) of Shudars.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest guest]

57 minutes ago, paapiman said:

8 hours ago, jaikaara said:

See there is always 2 sides of a coin, i do agree that Jatts are independent of brahmanical influence however the lop side is they did worst than what brahmins did and are still doing with the Mazhbis..any caste violence cases you take up the Jatts are involved...the Jatts are not of one single tribe ..our gotra is Bhatti and that is found amongst Jatts too. My friend is a Rathaur Jatt ..Rathaurs are Rajput origin too. ..i admire their pride but do not admire their arrogance. One can be good in one thing and the other will be good in something else.

Naa Hum channgge na bura koi....

 

Jaikaaraa, what opportunistic exageration.  You can go look/study the treatment of so called 'untouchables' etc in places outside of Panjab.  Panjab treatment was better by miles.

[Guest guest]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

 It is the greatness of our Satgurus (of Khatri origin) that these low caste Shudars were turned into warriors/kings/saints, etc.

history of jatts as rebels goesback to Alexandra the great.  there were hindu jatt kings outside of panjab.

though great things/people of sikh history are 100% due to the Gurus, yes. 

 

[Guest guest]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

You have to remember Paaji that Jatts are majority in the Panth. They are huge, when it comes to numbers, unlike other castes.

where are these numbers?

[BhagatSingh]

22 minutes ago, paapiman said:

high castes (so-called)

22 minutes ago, paapiman said:

lowest caste (so-called)

I think people don't understand what High Caste and Low Caste means.

It has to do with specialization -

A heart surgeon requires more specialization that a family physician. Thus a heart surgeon is Higher Caste than family physician who is Lower Caste.
A lawyer requires more specialization than a cashier. Thus a lawyer is Higher Caste than a cashier who is Lower Caste.

The point of spirituality is to transcend hierarchies, not to eliminate them. These types of hierarchies cannot be eliminated. This is the nature of life of all animals. But you can transcend this and learn to see the Atma, the being of individuals and feel love for them.

[Guest Caste loyalty is anti-Sikh]

Trolls never declare their own non-Sikh castes but always like to get Sikhs wasting time on the subject.

 

 

[jaikaara]

15 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Jaikaaraa, what opportunistic exageration.  You can go look/study the treatment of so called 'untouchables' etc in places outside of Panjab.  Panjab treatment was better by miles.

ohh so you are doing a favor by giving 'better' treatment ? Jaan nai liti ji siraf hathha paira kaate ..waah ji keep it up ! you will really do wonders with such thinking .

Opportunistic exaggeration? Are you even worth any opportunity? 

Khanda tattoo...Bhindranwale stickers ..and all the shitty language as much as possible ..b'chaud and m'chaud..and just keep claiming 200 times ..Assi Jatt aa ji..even to buy mooli pyaaj from the market..

Do you think you are even worth any opportunity ? An uncouth , rude mindset is just worthy of a mental asylum and has no place in civilized society.

[Sher Singh]

Khatri and Arora dominate the sphere of business activities. Khatri and Aroras are essentially identical caste and are primarily a caste of traders, shopkeepers and accountants.   Khatris and Aroras are equivalent of  Baniyas found elsewhere in India.  Khatri  is derived from the word  "Khata" . Before the partition of Punjab, Khatris were largely concetrated in West Punjab  where, according to English writer Barstow,   they were employed in a rather humble  way  by Pathans as their accountants. It is in this reference some derive the origin of word  "Khatri" from "Khata" or an accounting scroll.

British army recruiters  considered all of these mercantile castes unfit for military service. Khatri Sikhs were sometimes recruited  when they happened to have taken up farming and sometimes because of their knowledge of Pashto,  which came in handy to British to deal with the unruly Pathans. The mercantile element of this community, which almost entirely constitutes its core identity, was denied access to army. While Bhatias mostly did  not even find a mention in  recruitment manuals of Royal Indian Army, the  Aroras  were contemptuously dismissed with comments such as the following by the likes of Barstow : "The Arora, whether Sikh or Hindu, is generally unsuited for military service, and men of this class should never be enlisted except under special circumstances."

[Sat1176]

Manas ki jat sabhe eke paihcanbo....