Amrit, Duality, Pany-Payaras

[Singh123456777]

This is why I am so upset, because I don't know what to do. I can't go through the motions of something where I am being made to be inferior and incapable etc. just for being female.  My marriage is in question now... and basically my whole future.  

p.s. I thought some of you were under the impression that Amrit was never originally meant for women anyway... the whole kirpan amrit thing just so the wives could still be obedient little servants for their husbands and their husbands could eat the food they prepared??

NOWHERE ARE WOMEN MADE INFERIOR!!! IS MATA BHAG KAUR INFERIOR TO BABA DEEP SINGH?  NO!!! SO CALM DOWN! 

SHOW ME WHERE ANY MEMBER HAS SAID THAT A FEMALE IS INFERIOR! JUST BECAUSE A WOMAN CANT DO PANJ PYARA SEVA BECAUSE OF REHIT ETC DOES NOT MAKE A FEMALE INFERIOR. SO CALM DOWN.

 

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING FEMALE SHOUKD ONLY TAKE KIRPAN DA AMRIT ARE CRAZY NEO NANGS. SO CALM DOWN.

[Singh123456777]

I use capitals so Satkiran can actually read it.

[Xylitol]

It's not that I won't take Amrit from 5 males.  Because I see them all as just same souls as me, same clay as me.  It's that THEY see me as less than them, as incapable, inferior and by giving into that, I am making a statement that I agree that as a female I am inferior to them because of something I had no control over... my gender.  In my mind, this is no different than casteism and Brahmins thinking they are higher over dalits simply because they were born into a Brahmin body and that the dalit is incapable, low spiritually, etc.  While some of you just can't seem to see past the physical, I can't stop seeing the same light in everyone.  So it's not the idea of taking amrit from males, but the idea those males are perpetuating that I am somehow inferior to them for being in a female body, that they possess some divine light that I don't, that Guru Ji cares more about his Singhs than his Kaurs - to the point that Gurus Light would actually avoid females.  That thought, it just makes me feel dirty inside - I mean if Guru Ji would avoid this body then why should I embrace it and like it?  I hate my body, hate being female, and hate being seen as only incapable, inferior, disgusting and I don't want to feel like this anymore.  I actually want to feel what it's like to have respect from Singhs... to be seen as capable, strong, superior, courageous, spiritual.  I don't want to be seen anymore as incapable, inferior, emotional, dirty, impure, such that Guru Ji's light would even avoid this body.  How can it not be a punishment???    

You are making a giant presumption on the beliefs of those who serve in the Punj. You are also engaging in all or nothing thinking and overgeneralizing regarding the position of women just based on one or two things.  

No Sikh that I have ever met sees women the way that you state in your post. You are being emotional and not rational.

Btw, the kirpan da amrit for women is an old belief of a small minority of Sikhs, but the rest of us believe that it is meant to be Khande Batte da Amrit for both genders. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Xylitol

[CdnSikhGirl]

You are making a giant presumption on the beliefs of those who serve in the Punj. You are also engaging in all or nothing thinking and overgeneralizing regarding the position of women just based on one or two things.  

No Sikh that I have ever met sees women the way that you state in your post. You are being emotional and not rational.

Btw, the kirpan da amrit for women is an old belief of a small minority of Sikhs, but the rest of us believe that it is meant to be Khande Batte da Amrit for both genders. 

Not just Panj (and even that too is not the whole panth)  It's all the other things too... 

- Women not allowed to do kirtan at Harmandir Sahib
- Women not allowed to do palki sahib seva at Harmandir Sahib
- Women not allowed to do eva of washing sanctum sanctorum each night
- Women being told no seva during menstruation (even in light of modern hygiene products which takes care of cleanliness) and told they are *impure* (as in spiritually impure) during this time...  
- Women being restricted in some Gurdwaras from any seva of SGGSJ because they *might* start their period at any time
- This includes participating in Akhand Paaths, taking Hukamnama, reciting Ardaas in congregation, chaur sahib seva etc.
- Women being told to see (and serve) their husband as 'God' over her while he sees her as only a follower (some 'orthodox' sects) Paapiman can elaborate how the wife is lesser status than the husband since he was the one who said so
- Wives 'bowing' to their husbands *out of respect* because of the above mentioned higher status he has over her
- Belief in Kirpan amrit by some for women, given by one 'Singh' with a kirpan and not all the proper prayers 
- Perpetuating the belief that women were never meant to even have amrit from the beginning and trying to justify this
- Some Singhs using DG to justify making statements that women are immoral and less *pious* than men thus enforcing restrictions even more
- Not enough representation of women in Gurdwara committees especially the large historical ones in India, and in the Takhts.  
- Lohri openly practiced by Sikhs venerating birth of a boy while birth of girls are often met with 'condolences'
- Rakhri openly practiced by many Sikhs, signifying that girls require men (brothers) to protect them because they are weak 

And yes finally seva as Panj Pyaras... a highly spiritual event, the most important in all of Sikhi, is restricted from women by many Singhs.  In fact there is no actual writing from Guru Ji saying women are restricted, it's enforced and upheld by Sikh males who think they deserve this seva simply because they were born in a male body (for a variety of reasons from tradition to Paapiman's claim that women are incapable of doing it).  Even though Gurbani says our souls are all IDENTICAL.  Therefore the person inside the body is the same whether female or male.  The body is not the person.  However, some Singhs have a strong strong belief on this as if the body IS the person and that women somehow are not *worthy* even though not a single person alive today gave their head that day in 1699 so we are all actually in the very same boat. 

Then, the talk of being born female is a karmic punishment... and I read this on another Sikh forum where someone actually suggested that a woman needs to be reborn first in a male 'joon' before she can attain mukhti.  There ARE Singhs who believe this!  That is probably the most degrading remarks by Singhs about Singhnis that I have ever came across.  It was on Sikh Sangat I think... 

It's not the Sikh religion as I know what Gurbani says on the issue... but the beliefs of *some* Singhs which has me feeling depressed.  

 

[Xylitol]

A lot of that stuff is bunk. Some of it isn't. So what? It's about you and the Guru. Same thing I tell people who get upset at Gurdwara politics. You will be tested. They learn to ignore it and focus on their own spirituality. There are people at all spiritual levels walking this path, some are naturally more ignorant than others, some feel a need to lord it over others. The gandh in the world might get you down. But these people are dealing with their own issues and karmas. Our job is to develop our relationship with Guru ji. partly, it's a matter of picking and choosing our battles.

[jaikaara]

This is why I am so upset, because I don't know what to do. I can't go through the motions of something where I am being made to be inferior and incapable etc. just for being female.  My marriage is in question now... and basically my whole future.  

p.s. I thought some of you were under the impression that Amrit was never originally meant for women anyway... the whole kirpan amrit thing just so the wives could still be obedient little servants for their husbands and their husbands could eat the food they prepared??

When we choose a religion from a culture which is way different from our understanding there will always arise such conflicts..the fact is women are not the same as they were then..they are independent . Besides our differences i feel you are a strong woman..and i understand your thinking .

There are different layers of Sikhi ...The Nanak Panth is a different layer ..no where in the Guru Granth Sahib you will find insistence on rehat maryada..people will give tuks to prove ..but otherwise what i feel is ..it is the Sant marg..full of Bhagti for the One Divine Hari Parmatma..full of Sehaj ..

The Khalsa of Guru Gobindsingh ji is the militarised form and has certain regulations ..people may have their thoughts about Amirt sanskaar as a uniform ceremony however i strongly feel that there would be a different process of amrit sanskaar for women and a different rehat..also women were not empowered then and had a limited role in the ceremony there is belief of them to be not playing any role .

Your feminist approach will not let you stick to any belief where you will not find the role of women, which is not a point to argue since it is all about a mindset. Good or bad is not something for me to judge because at the same time i don't have any issues with it .

Before you go forward to a major decision in your life ..it is for you to think that this is just one thing which is known to you now ..going forward at every stage you will face such challenges wherein you will find yourself  thinking differently from the society and your spouse which you will be part of .

You need to think and introspect about your decision since it is all about your life.

I personally am brought up in a cosmopolitan way and society, i don't get along with one single group in majority i prefer to have everyone around .  I can very well understand how you must be feeling . 

You might have ignored my replies to your posts in the past ..however i am saying all this to you as a fellow human being ..we aren't friends or relatives ..whatever i have experienced and known i feel you need to introspect really well and then arrive at a decision . It is about 2 people's lives and i feel everyone should be happy.

 

 

 

[Guest]

A lot of that stuff is bunk. Some of it isn't. So what? It's about you and the Guru. Same thing I tell people who get upset at Gurdwara politics. You will be tested. They learn to ignore it and focus on their own spirituality. There are people at all spiritual levels walking this path, some are naturally more ignorant than others, some feel a need to lord it over others. The gandh in the world might get you down. But these people are dealing with their own issues and karmas. Our job is to develop our relationship with Guru ji. partly, it's a matter of picking and choosing our battles.

If a lot of it is bunk then why does it still continue? Obviously many don't think they are bunk!

And how can you go on ignoring these things when they directly affect you?  Avoid the Gurdwara? Just read Gurbani at home etc (solitary practioner)? I thought sangat was imporant?  Just accepting limitations placed on you so others can 'lord it over you' is not an option. It's not fair, and it only reinforces their ego too.

Which ones are not bunk?  Do you mean bunk as in they happen but shouldn't or that you think complaining about them is bunk (as in do you beleieve some of these things against women are justified?)

 

 

[Xylitol]

Most of the stuff you seem worried about isn’t going to affect your day to day life as Gursikh. And yes, you get tested.Everyone does. But I feel you are in the same mindset that a lot of people are in when they enter the dharm, focusing more on the outer stuff. All fired up about the political and social revolutionary aspects. Nothing wrong with that. But, the relative importance of the outer things to the inner spiritual life is akin to the skin of the almond to the almond itself. 

There are variations between Gurdwaras as well. Some places are more restrictive while others are not. Some places the sangat is very spiritual minded while other places they are not so far along in the path. 

You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater over a few things that, for the most part, are unlikely to majorly affect your life much unless you let them. They usually do not directly affect you. 

Going to sangat everyday is  hugely important for one’s jeevan. But the difference is I go there for my jeevan, not to critique things or look for faults. The ones who go to fight fights usually lose out, while the ones who focus on Naam gain. I’m not saying there aren’t fights worth fighting. But how will you accomplish anything if you fight every fight? 

 

btw, when I called those things bunk I meant that most of them are not legitimate Sikhi. The majority also happen to not believe in them. 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Xylitol

[CdnSikhGirl]

Most of the stuff you seem worried about isn’t going to affect your day to day life as Gursikh. And yes, you get tested.Everyone does. But I feel you are in the same mindset that a lot of people are in when they enter the dharm, focusing more on the outer stuff. All fired up about the political and social revolutionary aspects. Nothing wrong with that. But, the relative importance of the outer things to the inner spiritual life is akin to the skin of the almond to the almond itself. 

There are variations between Gurdwaras as well. Some places are more restrictive while others are not. Some places the sangat is very spiritual minded while other places they are not so far along in the path. 

You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater over a few things that, for the most part, are unlikely to majorly affect your life much unless you let them. They usually do not directly affect you. 

Going to sangat everyday is  hugely important for one’s jeevan. But the difference is I go there for my jeevan, not to critique things or look for faults. The ones who go to fight fights usually lose out, while the ones who focus on Naam gain. I’m not saying there aren’t fights worth fighting. But how will you accomplish anything if you fight every fight? 

 

btw, when I called those things bunk I meant that most of them are not legitimate Sikhi. The majority also happen to not believe in them. 

 

 

You guys KNOW I am not concerned only with the outer stuff :) IN fact it was the spiritual stuff that brought me to Sikhi in the first place.. the personal connection with Waheguru that other religions don't teach... other religions require a mediator, and no self practice, no self experiences. Some of the things I experienced from when I was young, did not work with those religions at all. In fact I could have been accused of occult/witchcraft or something simply because I was more in tune with my spiritual side.  I knew deep inside there was a connection between consciousness and matter... and when I read SGGSJ the first time and it stated that outright, here in front of me was a text which had been written hundreds of years before modern quantum physics, stating outright there was an intrinsic connection between consciousness and matter (ang 21) Everywhere I look I see the Lord pervading in the union of shiva and shakti of consciousness and matter.  It was then I knew I had to read more.  
Though the outer stuff doesn't affect day to day stuff most of the time, it does affect self esteem etc. of Gursikh girls.  Because that perception of how you are seen by other Sikhs is always there.  It shouldn't matter what others think, but it does because these limitations are a reminder that Waheguru likes men more?? Or that the Gurus cared about Singhs more than Singhnis?  If I had two children one male and one female, I could not just give one more privilege than the other and justify it based on their gender. No matter how I tried to justify it.  Just because my son would have more physical strength etc would not be a reason to give him more in life than my daughter.  Physical strength is not the measure of someone's worth or a measure of how much privilege they should get. Yet it seems like that's what we are doing!  The biggest excuse why men get more privilege than women is that they have more physical strength.  What about other traits? Like mental ability, multi tasking (which women are better at), spacial awareness etc? Or how about those virtues which I think count more? Empathy, Compassion, Caring etc. which women are more naturally attuned to? Why do those things take second place to brute strength? Brute strength and desire to dominate and conquer (greed) is what causes 99% of the world's problems!  So why do those traits get treated as the ones which decide who gets more privileges? Extra Testosterone might give extra physical strength but it also gives extra anger, and desire to conquer things.  Maybe with less testosterone, there wouldn't be so many wars etc in the first place and there would be less need for brute strength.  Even now, in modern world, military is less about physical strength and more about technology and mental skills.  We are starting to get away from sending people and instead sending drones etc flown by pilots who are safely in home base.  Hand to hand combat and needing brute strength means little when your enemy is an IED planted by someone who sneaks around and doesn't attack directly.  (And yes I can speak of this from actual military experience - just because I am navy means nothing as many Navy were sent to Afghanistan anyway as base defence force personnel etc.).  

But yet, we still place brute strength as the deciding factor for who gets what.... its the #1 quoted reason why Sikh women should have less privileges and be pushed into subordinate roles.  "Its nature of women to be submissive etc" No it's not... but we have been forced into it by the brute strength of males who don't see that women are also people like them, with same souls.  

Some fights ARE worth fighting.  I want to be able to tell young Sikh girls they DO matter just as much as the boys.  That the Gurus cared about them just as much, and did not limit them.  That God sees them equally to how boys are seen. That they don't have to hide in sidelines while the boys get all the attention and glory.  Kaur is just as important as Singh.  Change starts from us. If we do nothing, there will never be any change. 

 

 

 

 

[chatanga1]

Even though Gurbani says our souls are all IDENTICAL.

Does that make our bodies identical as well? No it doesn't.

 

  Therefore the person inside the body is the same whether female or male.  The body is not the person.

So why aren't same-sex marriages part of Gurmat? One person is marrying another soul, not their body.

It's not the Sikh religion as I know what Gurbani says on the issue...

You are twisting Gurbani from spiritual equality to physical equality.

 

[chatanga1]

You guys KNOW I am not concerned only with the outer stuff :)

So marry a woman then. If outer stuff doesn't matter why are you marrying a man?

Some fights ARE worth fighting.  I want to be able to tell young Sikh girls they DO matter just as much as the boys. 

Yes because you would be the first to do so. No-one ever thoight of it before you came along. Such arrogance.

That the Gurus cared about them just as much, and did not limit them.  That God sees them equally to how boys are seen. That they don't have to hide in sidelines while the boys get all the attention and glory.  Kaur is just as important as Singh.

So when "they" ask you why there were no female Guru's what will you say?

[CdnSikhGirl]

So marry a woman then. If outer stuff doesn't matter why are you marrying a man?

Yes because you would be the first to do so. No-one ever thoight of it before you came along. Such arrogance.

So when "they" ask you why there were no female Guru's what will you say?

Let me ask you directly... you think you are better than women because you are male?  You think that because you happened to be born with the same parts as the Gurus it makes you better than your sisters or Mother? That's NOT arrogance or Ego?? You think you deserve more privilege because you have a penis?

I will tell those girls the truth. In that time, women were severely repressed and seen as property of men.  They were even expected to kill themselves by burning to death on their husband's funeral pyre because their worth was only as an extension of their husband.  At that time, nobody would have listened to a female.  Heck, even now in present time, most of you would not listen to a female because you think you are better than women and that women should be the ones listening to you.  Whenever you have a group who are being exploited, no matter how many times that group makes claims that they deserve equality, their oppressors will never listen, unless they outright revolt and resort to violence - which has been done in history as well.  But to have men actually make the statement that males and females are equal, means so much more than if a female had claimed so!!!  For someone of the male gender to say women are our equals and deserve equal treatment. THAT means a lot.  Men would ave actually listened  It's just too bad those teachings have long since been forgotten as culture crept back in, and women were pushed back into subordinate role as servant / housewife only.  It comes down to one thing... domination, greed... etc many men just do not want to 'share' equality and they have it too good controlling women and having them wait on them hand and foot. 

You keep saying there was never meant to be physical equality. Do you think the Gurus meant for men to have more privilege in life than women? If so... then answer directly... WHY WAS I BORN FEMALE in a lesser privileged position? If half the human race are supposed to be subject to the other half, then certainly I caused my plight? So it IS karmic punishment then to be born female?? It's the only way you can explain how someone would be born into a lesser role - aside from chance. And that would mean Waheguru is unjust - relegating some into a lesser and subordinate role for no reason, while giving others more privilege for no reason.  That would be unjust, and we know Waheguru can not be unjust. So how do you explain it? 

Do you really believe our Gurus advocated that men have the best of everything while women are pushed into subordination and given back burner? Why would our Gurus want only males to have an enjoyable life while females are in subjection?  

 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

Does that make our bodies identical as well? No it doesn't.

Excellent point bro.

For example: Suppose we had a seva, where very heavy weights had to be picked. Suppose, if Maharaaj had stated that only men can do this seva. Now, we know that women on average, cannot lift as much as men.

Current record - Clean and jerk is 193 Kg for a woman, but for a man it is 263 Kg (a difference of more than 150 pounds).

 

Only a fool would argue that this is discrimination against females or Satguru jee is making females look inferior or incapable.

 

In addition to that, women feel pain more intensely than men.

 

Quote

 

For almost every diagnosis, women reported higher average pain scores than men. Women's scores were, on average, 20 percent higher than men's scores, according to the study.

 

Unquote[1]

 

[1] - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/women-feel-pain-more-intensely/

 

 

On the other hand, women have been given certain other abilities (reading body language, multitasking, child rearing, etc), which men, on average, are not as good. Should men start complaining about that?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 28, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Not all women are good at child rearing  (or even want to ) and it's a burden not a privilege.  You speak as if all women love having babies when many view it as a serious burden not a privilege. 

And yes a father can raise a child just as well as a Mother can.  Seva as Panj Pyaras does not require lifting 250 lbs but just so you know in the Canadian military we have only ONE physical standard which both males and females are required to meet. There is no double standard! 

[Koi]

Not all women are good at child rearing  (or even want to ) and it's a burden not a privilege.  You speak as if all women love having babies when many view it as a serious burden not a privilege. 

And yes a father can raise a child just as well as a Mother can.  Seva as Panj Pyaras does not require lifting 250 lbs but just so you know in the Canadian military we have only ONE physical standard which both males and females are required to meet. There is no double standard! 

so ,child  rearing is a burden  ?

[jaikaara]

so ,child  rearing is a burden  ?

Yaar ohne ta nahi manna hai ..eh gal te vi hor vee panji panne bann jaane hai te siappa banneya hi rahuga

[chatanga1]

Let me ask you directly...

1.you think you are better than women because you are male?  

2. You think that because you happened to be born with the same parts as the Gurus it makes you better than your sisters or Mother? That's NOT arrogance or Ego??

3. You think you deserve more privilege because you have a penis?

1. No

2. No.

3. No

I will tell those girls the truth

In order to tell the truth, you need to know the truth.

Heck, even now in present time, most of you would not listen to a female because you think you are better than women and that women should be the ones listening to you. 

That has been disproved here conclusively. We have listened to you and given replies. If we thought that we were better than you, wouldn't we have just ignored you?

Don't you think thats a pretty shallow statement to make in the first place ?  "Most of you..." ?

 

Whenever you have a group who are being exploited,

You, or females are not being exploited.

 

But to have men actually make the statement that males and females are equal, means so much more than if a female had claimed so!!!  For someone of the male gender to say women are our equals and deserve equal treatment. THAT means a lot. 

 Who are we to say anything? It is clear in Gurmat.

 

It's just too bad those teachings have long since been forgotten as culture crept back in,

How do you know they have been forgotten? I would contest that the practices that you have mentioned so many times, never involved women to being with. Panj Seva etc, what evidence do you have that women were involved before culture took over?

 

and women were pushed back into subordinate role as servant / housewife only. 

 Now thats just ignorance on your part. We are not to blame for that.

 

 etc many men just do not want to 'share' equality and they have it too good controlling women and having them wait on them hand and foot.

again you are just being silly and posting emotional rants. I do hope that the parents of these little girls who intend to question you in the future, step in and teach their kids first.

You keep saying there was never meant to be physical equality. Do you think the Gurus meant for men to have more privilege in life than women?

No.

 

 If so... then answer directly... WHY WAS I BORN FEMALE in a lesser privileged position?

 

Who said you have lesser privileges? I say you have different privileges.

 It's the only way you can explain how someone would be born into a lesser role - aside from chance.

 

No-one is in a lesser role, so I wouldn't need to explain anything.

 That would be unjust, and we know Waheguru can not be unjust. So how do you explain it? 

Having different roles is not unjust, so again I wouldn't need to explain anything.

Do you really believe our Gurus advocated that men have the best of everything while women are pushed into subordination and given back burner? Why would our Gurus want only males to have an enjoyable life while females are in subjection?  

Only males to have an enjoyable life? Have you ever heard yourself?

 

[chatanga1]

Not all women are good at child rearing  (or even want to ) and it's a burden not a privilege.  You speak as if all women love having babies when many view it as a serious burden not a privilege. 

Yet only women carry that child and give birth to it. Only women have that experience of life growing inside them. Whichever way they see it, only they will experience it. 

Not all women are good at child rearing  (or even want to ) and it's a burden not a privilege.  You speak as if all women love having babies when many view it as a serious burden not a privilege. 

What poor thinking! Did these women who think it's a burden come into this world a different way? Such appalling thinking.

And yes a father can raise a child just as well as a Mother can.

A father can do most things but he will never carry and nurture that living entity inside him for 9 months and then give birth to it. And feed it and strengthen it from his own body for its first few months of it's existence.

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by chatanga1

[chatanga1]

For example: Suppose we had a seva, where very heavy weights had to be picked. Suppose, if Maharaaj had stated that only men can do this seva. Now, we know that women on average, cannot lift as much as men.

I'm not talking about physical achievements by men or women. I'm talking about how nature has given men and women different roles, some which we can both do, but some which only one gender can do.

[paapiman]

I'm not talking about physical achievements by men or women. I'm talking about how nature has given men and women different roles, some which we can both do, but some which only one gender can do.

The point is: God has made us different. If God wanted, he could have given the same physical strength to women too, but he did not; hence the difference in physical achievements. 

We have to accept God's will, as we have no option.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 29, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

The fact will not change - Women are better at child rearing, than men. Even their brains are designed by God, to do that after child birth.

Quote 

After childbirth, new neurochemical pathways are formed in a mother's brain to reinforce maternal behavior, new responses, and priorities. Her brain and reality have both been transformed. And because of regular oxytocin rewards, the bonding and caring hormone, even fathers, adoptive parents, and care givers can experience similar differences when in close daily contact with an infant.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-17814/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-female-brain.html

 

If men start taking care of babies, it is a possibility that emotional/psychological problems start popping up with children. Going against nature might have some serious ramifications.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 28, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Lowering of physical standards in military, police, firefighting, etc, to accommodate women can have serious consequences.

Quote 

This week Wax, who repeatedly flunked the rigorous physical test required by the New York City Fire Department, will be allowed to graduate anyway, according to the New York Post. All over the nation, fire departments are easing physical standards to increase the number of women firefighters.

Unquote [1] 

[1] - http://www.newsmax.com/McCaughey/Homeland-Security/2015/05/05/id/642647/

 

Look at what women's groups are claiming:

Quote

Women’s groups claim the test is needlessly difficult and unfairly bars women. Trainees wearing fifty pounds of gear and breathing through an air tank must climb six stories, raise ladders, break down doors, and drag a dummy through a dark tunnel, all at breakneck speed. Sounds like fire fighting.

Unquote [2]

[2] - http://www.newsmax.com/McCaughey/Homeland-Security/2015/05/05/id/642647/

 

Sangat jee - Do you want to be in a situation, where a woman who cannot pass the above test, comes to rescue you or your loved one? The above test does not even sound tough. There are many men out there, who will most likely pass it. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bye guess who is in both pics???

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bye guess who is in both pics???

[Koi]

You?