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Amrit, Duality, Pany-Payaras

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You are certainly allowed to have your own opinion... and we have to just agree to disagree. Because where you see duality, I look beyond that to the base level of the physical.  Where over 99.9999% of every atom is empty space, and all that is left are electrons and quarks (once you break down protons and neutrons).  Every single electron is identical in the Universe and every single Quark is identical.  There are no male or female electrons or quarks.  We only see the difference of male or female because we can't see at that subatomic level with our eyes. If we could, we would understand that once we remove all the empty space on the Earth, there would be enough matter left to fill one grain of rice. That's it. The illusion of gender is because we experience tuned into this macroscopic level.  Even our bodies are 99.9999% empty space. Rest is literally electromagnetic fields holding everything together.  The consciousness behind every single life form is one and the same. Keep in mind this is real.... not a theory.  Gender (and everything else physical) is really a true illusion.  

 I understand how so many can't seem to let go of the macroscopic, but at the same time, I can't go back to seeing the world like that anymore. I only see and understand at that base level now.  How I can't explain without some people assuming or accusing, so I won't.  In reality, there is no duality.  Duality itself IS the illusion.  We think we are separate from God and trying to merge back.  But the truth is, we never left.  We just forgot we were here.  This entire existence in the physical reality is quite literally... a dream.  Those electrons and quarks - they pop into and out of existence, seemingly at random.  But it's been proven one thing collapses the wave function and causes an electron to literally become a particle vs a wave: conscious observation.  Since our brains are even made of identical electrons, and every single electron behaves exactly the same, this means consciousness and not matter is the base of the universe.  (look up double slit experiment if you'd like more information and there was a second experiment recently which is similar and gives even more clues).  

Because of all the talk of women can't do this, women can't do that... I have decided to not take Amrit.  How this will affect my marriage I don't know since he is Amritdhari.  However, I can't justify doing something which sees me as inferior or incapable compared to him.  If it's all about duality, then this Amrit produced by only men, should only be taken by men.  Or else women would produce amrit for women.  Or going by duality, women should produce amrit for men and men should produce it for women as THAT would resolve duality.  It makes no sense to keep women from the process all together.  And If only men can make it, then it makes no sense for women to even take it.  Because it makes no sense that someone can take amrit but not be able to make it and initiate others.   

All of this has made me seriously question Sikhi which I thought was for men and women both.  But after coming on this forum, it seems like it's only for men.  

By the way I thought kirpan was considered the female sword and khanda was male?  Therefore if your idea of duality is the reason, men should use kirpan to prepare it as that would be male/female and not a khanda (if you are speaking of shiva / shakti).  And in that case, why couldn't 5 women produce it with a kirpan as the opposite of 5 men with khanda so to keep with the opposites? 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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The 5K's (Kara, Kangha, Kachera, Kirpan, Kesh/Kesge); the symbols are the physical symbols; they DO represent Spiritual purposes but still they are just physical symbols. How could we explain this outside of duality? How could we ridicule Janeu (Hindu thread) as manmat; janeu could also represent some Spiritual principle. So, how could we mock janeu but 100% in for 5Ks for Sikhs?

Satkirin, do you know Kirpan/Khanda is always represented by Female/Shakti. I don't know how could 5 women (female power) prepare it with Kirpan (again female power)? Moreover, have you read Bachittar Natak, or Bibi Bhani's sakhi? It sounds like from your messages that you haven't had a chance. I have no issues with you or paapiman but both of you have yourself closed your mind to any new stuff, both of you are just repeating same stuff again and again without even trying to understand what the other is saying.

Yes, I agree that everything is Illusion/Maya; in that sense, we haven't left God's abode; HE is still here; in-fact we're God. Then what's the need of any Spiritual stuff anyway or to take Amrit?? Kindly explain? Just switch your point to view from macro to micro. Yet, its very easy to say, but extremely hard to experience. e.g If someone asks you to target Sky; your reaction would be where in Sky. Right? You need something in the sky to aim at. Same way, Nirankar is everywhere but out our bhuddi (part of mind) is not able to understand it, so we had to take the help of Mind to some level, i.e we need to concentrate our dhayan on something which will eventually take us from this level to that level. Problem is when we rigidly start worshiping the tools thinking that this is the God.

Moreover, its just recently that everyone is treating Amrit like going to a shop (choosing which brand - AKJ or This or That) and then making a deal. Nothing more than that. In the past, Saints/Sants used to give Amrit only to people who are really ready and putting up the effort. e.g If anyone asks for Amrit from Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji, then he used to say that: First practice Meditation/Paath for 6 months, and then again for 6 months and instructs them to refrain from alcohol and meat during that time. And if one is able to follow those for 1 full year, only then he/she was given Amrit. Nowdays, things have changed and there are many shops where one can do window shopping.

At-last, regarding your dropping the idea of taking Amrit, please allow me to ask this question: Why you were interested in taking Amrit in first-place: Was it because of your Love towards Guru Granth Sahib Ji OR just something else? You decide!!

Edited by das

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Actually both genders have both the masculine and feminine principles in them.  I don't think we can mix up gender with masculine and feminine principle as they are different things.  The masculine and feminine - all humans possess both principles.  I think Gurbani actually addressed this too by saying the "female is in the male and the male is in the female."  I mentioned the microscopic because it shows us that 'physical' gender is not part of what is real.  The masculine principle however is different and if you are speaking of that, then any human can embody this.  Since this is a spiritual endeavour, I don't believe it has anything to do with the physical gender at all (however humans had to find something to explain polarity so they used male and female)... the male principle is different however, and females also possess this principle. In fact... I believe there is even in Gurbani where it says that "everywhere I look I see the Lord pervading in the Union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter."  So the very act of consciousness creating matter - including our physical bodies, both genders - (as I explained above) all already possess both principles.  However, the feminine has been repressed for a very long time.  Feminine principles have been discouraged in men, and disparaged in women, and much of the world's issues today can be traced to the repression and imbalance of the masculine and feminine.  Men and a sword can not rectify this, as the feminine is still being pushed out. - A sword is just a sword.... it has no gender, and although it does possess the divine light, it does not possess human consciousness.  The balance of both masculine and feminine in the human consciousness is what needs to happen. This is why some spiritual paths state that the coming together of husband and wife, their union, is a powerful spiritual experience. 

By the way you are right... we don't actually need amrit to find God as God is already within all of us (in fact IS all of us). 

 

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My reasoning for wanting to take Amrit was because my exposure to Sikhi was based entirely on Gurbani alone... and having only based my views on Gurbani and not so called traditions etc. Gurbani does in fact say all humans are equal and all humans are to be seen with single eye of equality.  It was the deep spiritual meanings in Gurbani which drew me in.  The practice of naam simran, and the personal experience with God that other religions just do not give (ie: going through a mediary like a priest instead of personal experience).  When I made the decision about Amrit, I never knew there were so many Singhs who would see me as inferior, or incapable, or think it would be 'disgusting' if a woman were ever to be one of the Panj Pyaras during an Amrit Sanchar. Seeing how so many Singhs view women (they are ok with us as long as we know our place and stay subordinate to them?) it was realizing this, that made me decide against it now.  Because I have been given the gift of actually experiencing some things, to the point that I can't go back to seeing things in pure duality anymore (nor would I want to), I actually feel now, like taking Amrit might pull me backwards... force me to feel inferior to males, and pull me further back into duality, feeling like I am inferior, feeling like I am incapable... and further away from God.  

 

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Yes, both genders; in-fact every cell has both the principles. But it's the ratio. Also, a sword is NOT a sword; it DOES have consciousness. How could you claim "it does possess the divine light, it does not possess human consciousness......." . Please be informed that everything in this universe does have consciousness; even Stones does have consciousness. That's why I say, please first get all the information (what is what).

Also, Guru is MUST if one wants to break the Ajna/3rd eye. If anyone has true love, then he/she would sacrifice the whole life for it. e.g Patanga (an insect) gets burned in the fire for its love towards it. So, it sounds like your intention to take Amrit was not too strong, not based upon true love, otherwise how could one drop the idea (which is only between One's Soul's and Guru). Amrit is a deal between One's Soul and the guide (Guru), how could someone's argument win over it.

Kindly, do NOT convert this thread to Man -vs-Women; that's NOT the intention. Other members please share your thoughts.

Edited by das

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I know a sword, like everything in existence actually arises FROM consciousness... the ONE same consciousness.  In fact if you re-read my post that's exactly what I said.  But it doesn't have human self-awareness. The 'kingdoms' of conscious evolution are mineral (which would also include inanimate objects like a sword), plant, animal, and then human.  Human level is the only one where we can contemplate God because we are self aware.  Self awareness is needed so that we ask 'who are we and why are we here'.  Whereas, inanimate objects etc are actually closer to God spiritually, but can not actually understand concept of Creator / Creation.  They just 'are'.  

I tried my best to explain above. I did feel that... but what I felt that 'love' for does not exist apparently.  Instead some other concept seems to be what actually exists.  So if yours / paapiman etc concepts are true, then it's not what I had 'love' for as my drive was based solely on Gurbani and concept of ALL as ONE and all humans being treated equally.  So if what I knew as Guru is not in fact what Guru really is... then how can I take Amrit?? I would be sacrificing my whole being and giving my head to something I don't truly believe in...(which would be wrong of me to do)... that being males are superior and I am inferior to them and can not progress spiritually without them, like I am an incapable lost child. Because then my next question is why was I born in this incapable, inferior female body where I have to rely solely on males to drag me along to salvation / liberation like some tag along who doesn't belong there?  So in summary yes I WAS serious about Amrit, and giving my head to Guru... but who I thought Guru was, turns out not to be, and the concept of Amrit is not what I thought it was (process which removed all sense of difference and status and created one khalsa where everyone were equal and at same level) but I guess I was wrong.  There are male khalsa who can do all duties of khalsa and female khalsa who for lack of a better word are only 'almost' khalsa because according to you guys, we can never fullfill all the duties or rights of a Khalsa (which would include being able to initiate others) and made to feel like we're only there because the men eventually gave in and let us, but with restrictions.  (if what some say is true, that women were never even meant to have khandi di pahul at all and were only give it so men would eat the food women cooked)  So since reality seems to be very different than what I was dedicated to, that's why I have second thoughts now.  

It doesn't mean I can't live by SRM, or follow it.  

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In my personal view based on my understanding, from absolute view yes women can be part of panj pyares as amrit received from essence directly from soul- gyan saroop guru- pure consciousness/bhram via body but from relative point as far as five takths-pillars of sikhi are concerned such as akaal takth, patna sahib, hazoor sahib, damdama sahib, anandpur sahib women should refrain from doing panj pyares di seva as traditionally/historically it was five beloved - panj pyares- male.

And thats all there is to it. Both sides should not be rigid in their beliefs as both sides tends to missed the essence.

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I beleive women can not be in panj pyre because historical fact is five men gave heads who were spiritual singhs, today the same maryda should be followed bcause the panj pyre were in the form of men and should be represented the same, but panj pyre r only for those singhs who are highly spiritual likes saint not normal singhs who dont have high jeevans , normal singhs should not be able to patake this seva , tht is just my opinion

Edited by Orochimaru

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The fact that disabled people, blind people, etc (even according to the so-called SRM) cannot be part of Panj pyaray and the Panj Pyaray and the Granthi Singh are suppose to keep their eyes on the Amrit during the ceremony, are clear indications that physical aspect of a being is playing a role in the ceremony. Male and female bodies are different in many ways (other than reproductive organs).

One cannot blame Satkirin for her views. This so-called SRM, allows women to be part of Panj Pyaray. This document has caused so much confusion in the panth.
 
Bhul chuk maaf

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This is exactly why I have decided not to take Amrit.  (And fearing what this might mean for my upcoming marriage) I can't justify doing something which sees me as inferior simply for being in a body which I had no control over.  I do not want to have to feel like I am incapable of progressing spiritually without being dragged along by males like I am some spiritually inferior tag along who has to be dragged to liberation by males because females are too inferior.  Because obviously Amrit Sanchar is not what I thought it was, that is why I have decided not to take it.  I truly do not believe women are completely reliant on men to progress spiritually, and I do not believe Guru's light only comes to males.  Because then that begs the question, why was I born in this inferior disgusting body to begin with?  Was 'Seeker' right? Is this a punishment? To always be seen as lowly, inferior, disgusting, incapable, that even Guru Ji's light avoids?  I almost don't even want to continue.  I will just hope and pray I am born a male next time because I have given up on this body if it is seen so disgustingly by Singhs. 

If majority of Singhs think like this then maybe I am even questioning Sikhi alltogether now.  

By the way Granthi also does not need to be a Singh Paapiman.  A female can be Granthi too. 

Ibrute I did do Hukam and this is the shabad that came up and it seems to disagree with the above katha saying the Light only comes to males.  

ਆਵਹੁ ਭੈਣੇ ਤੁਸੀ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੀਆ ॥

Āvhu bẖaiṇe ṯusī milhu pi▫ārī▫ā.

Come, dear sisters-let us join together.


ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਦਸੇ ਤਿਸ ਕੈ ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀਆ ॥

Jo merā parīṯam ḏase ṯis kai ha▫o vārī▫ā.

I am a sacrifice to the one who tells me of my Beloved.


ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਲਧਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਘੁਮਾਈਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

Mil saṯsangaṯ laḏẖā har sajaṇ ha▫o saṯgur vitahu gẖumā▫ī▫ā jī▫o. ||1||

Joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, I have found the Lord, my Best Friend. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||1||


ਜਹ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਤਹ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

Jah jah ḏekẖā ṯah ṯah su▫āmī.

Wherever I look, there I see my Lord and Master.


ਤੂ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

Ŧū gẖat gẖat ravi▫ā anṯarjāmī.

You are permeating each and every heart, O Lord, Inner-knower, Searcher of Hearts.


ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਸਦ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Gur pūrai har nāl ḏikẖāli▫ā ha▫o saṯgur vitahu saḏ vāri▫ā jī▫o. ||2||

The Perfect Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me. I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||2||


ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥

Ėko pavaṇ mātī sabẖ ekā sabẖ ekā joṯ sabā▫ī▫ā.

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.


ਸਭ ਇਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਭਿਨਿ ਭਿਨਿ ਨ ਰਲਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਦੀ ਰਲਾਈਆ ॥

Sabẖ ikā joṯ varṯai bẖin bẖin na ral▫ī kisai ḏī ralā▫ī▫ā.

The One Light pervades all the many and various beings. This Light intermingles with them, but it is not diluted or obscured.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਇਕੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਤਾਇਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

Gur parsādī ik naḏrī ā▫i▫ā ha▫o saṯgur vitahu vaṯā▫i▫ā jī▫o. ||3||

By Guru's Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||3||


ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Jan Nānak bolai amriṯ baṇī.

Servant Nanak speaks the Ambrosial Bani of the Word.


ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਭਾਣੀ ॥

Gursikẖāʼn kai man pi▫ārī bẖāṇī.

It is dear and pleasing to the minds of the GurSikhs.


ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੭॥

Upḏes kare gur saṯgur pūrā gur saṯgur par▫upkārī▫ā jī▫o. ||4||7||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, shares the Teachings. The Guru, the True Guru, is Generous to all. ||4||7||

 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.

 

Bro, can you please provide the audio reference to the above katha?

Also, thanks for sharing the sakhi.

Bhul chuk maaf

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This is exactly why I have decided not to take Amrit.  (And fearing what this might mean for my upcoming marriage) I can't justify doing something which sees me as inferior simply for being in a body which I had no control over.  I do not want to have to feel like I am incapable of progressing spiritually without being dragged along by males like I am some spiritually inferior tag along who has to be dragged to liberation by males because females are too inferior.  Because obviously Amrit Sanchar is not what I thought it was, that is why I have decided not to take it.  I truly do not believe women are completely reliant on men to progress spiritually, and I do not believe Guru's light only comes to males.  Because then that begs the question, why was I born in this inferior disgusting body to begin with?  Was 'Seeker' right? Is this a punishment? To always be seen as lowly, inferior, disgusting, incapable, that even Guru Ji's light avoids?  I almost don't even want to continue.  I will just hope and pray I am born a male next time because I have given up on this body if it is seen so disgustingly by Singhs. 

If majority of Singhs think like this then maybe I am even questioning Sikhi alltogether now.  

By the way Granthi also does not need to be a Singh Paapiman.  A female can be Granthi too. 

Ibrute I did do Hukam and this is the shabad that came up and it seems to disagree with the above katha saying the Light only comes to males.  

ਆਵਹੁ ਭੈਣੇ ਤੁਸੀ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੀਆ ॥

Āvhu bẖaiṇe ṯusī milhu pi▫ārī▫ā.

Come, dear sisters-let us join together.


ਜੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਦਸੇ ਤਿਸ ਕੈ ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀਆ ॥

Jo merā parīṯam ḏase ṯis kai ha▫o vārī▫ā.

I am a sacrifice to the one who tells me of my Beloved.


ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਲਧਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਘੁਮਾਈਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

Mil saṯsangaṯ laḏẖā har sajaṇ ha▫o saṯgur vitahu gẖumā▫ī▫ā jī▫o. ||1||

Joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, I have found the Lord, my Best Friend. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||1||


ਜਹ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਤਹ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥

Jah jah ḏekẖā ṯah ṯah su▫āmī.

Wherever I look, there I see my Lord and Master.


ਤੂ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

Ŧū gẖat gẖat ravi▫ā anṯarjāmī.

You are permeating each and every heart, O Lord, Inner-knower, Searcher of Hearts.


ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਸਦ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Gur pūrai har nāl ḏikẖāli▫ā ha▫o saṯgur vitahu saḏ vāri▫ā jī▫o. ||2||

The Perfect Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me. I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||2||


ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥

Ėko pavaṇ mātī sabẖ ekā sabẖ ekā joṯ sabā▫ī▫ā.

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.


ਸਭ ਇਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਵਰਤੈ ਭਿਨਿ ਭਿਨਿ ਨ ਰਲਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਦੀ ਰਲਾਈਆ ॥

Sabẖ ikā joṯ varṯai bẖin bẖin na ral▫ī kisai ḏī ralā▫ī▫ā.

The One Light pervades all the many and various beings. This Light intermingles with them, but it is not diluted or obscured.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਇਕੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਤਾਇਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

Gur parsādī ik naḏrī ā▫i▫ā ha▫o saṯgur vitahu vaṯā▫i▫ā jī▫o. ||3||

By Guru's Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||3||


ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Jan Nānak bolai amriṯ baṇī.

Servant Nanak speaks the Ambrosial Bani of the Word.


ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਭਾਣੀ ॥

Gursikẖāʼn kai man pi▫ārī bẖāṇī.

It is dear and pleasing to the minds of the GurSikhs.


ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੭॥

Upḏes kare gur saṯgur pūrā gur saṯgur par▫upkārī▫ā jī▫o. ||4||7||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, shares the Teachings. The Guru, the True Guru, is Generous to all. ||4||7||

 

I completely understand ur situation satkirin bhen ji.And The Hukamnaama you got clearly indicates Maharaaj's kirpa on you.This shabad has given me goose bumps.Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru sahib!!

Akaal Hi Akaal!!

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It seems like you don't want to respond to my message that I sent you. Your fiancé is amritdhari and you are not. You are gonna make him a patit if you don't take Amrit. Just because of your views ruin somebody else's sikhi jeevan. An amritdhari can only marry an amritdhari. If your fiancé doesn't care if your amritdhari and will marry you if you aren't amritdhari then sadly he doesn't care about guru gobind Singh Ji di sikhi.

Also do you think mata bhag kaur or mata sahib kaur were wrong for taking Amrit from only make panj pyare? Are you above these two warriors? That it's below you to take Amrit from a man?

Also nobody said nothing that being a woman is a punishment. You show where any member wrote that.

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Moreover, its just recently that everyone is treating Amrit like going to a shop (choosing which brand - AKJ or This or That) and then making a deal. Nothing more than that. In the past, Saints/Sants used to give Amrit only to people who are really ready and putting up the effort. e.g If anyone asks for Amrit from Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji, then he used to say that: First practice Meditation/Paath for 6 months, and then again for 6 months and instructs them to refrain from alcohol and meat during that time. And if one is able to follow those for 1 full year, only then he/she was given Amrit. Nowdays, things have changed and there are many shops where one can do window shopping.

 

Bro, even during the times of Srimaan Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj, a person had to wait 1-2 years before receiving amrit.

Having said that, there have been Brahamgyanis in the panth, who did not put such prerequisites and baptized hundreds of thousands of people.

Examples:

Srimaan Sant Baba Raam Singh jee Naamdhari (most likely)

Srimaan Sant Baba Attar Singh jee Mastuanaywale

Srimaan Sant Baba Ishar Singh jee Nanaksar

Therefore, different approaches have been followed by different Brahamgyanis. We need to respect these approaches.

 
Bhul chuk maaf
Edited by paapiman

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Satkirin Bhenji Ji,

WJKK WJKF!!

I want to say you very few lines:

You/we are very lucky to be ones who are provided with a chance to read Nirankaars words/Gurbani/SGGSJ..

And now you've decided to take Amrit.I can't congratulate you in appropriate words for this.In the way you are exploring the things clearly shows your affection /love/curiosty towards Guru Maharaj.

Bhenji, Let your doubts be cleared before you do your ceremony.But Dont allow yourself to indulge in an illusion.Just think what is waiting for you..Your one step gonna remove distance of miles b/ you and your Guru.These are just opposing forces which are trying to restrict your progress.

Okay!!

About Amrit:

I think 5 panj pyaarey are physical representation of Guru Maharaj himself at the time.It's not like It's done after taking amrit.All depends upon spiritual awastha of panj pyaareys.Like in above saakhi light entered.I think the light entered because these males were spiritually enlightened ones.How can That divine jyot enters in a person with no spiritual qualities.

All I want to say is that dont focus on gender of panj pyaareys like they must be men or women.Just pray these 5 souls must be True Gurmukhs who have done enough kamai in their lives.I read somewhere if One of panj pyaareys is a Brahmgyani,then you wilk have a very great spiritual journey.Just do ardaas again and again "Maharaj I want to be yours.I want to achieve what I couldnt achieve in previous lives.I'm not here to differentiate between men or women.I'm here to merge in nirankaar jyot.Please send me to these Great 5 singhs who can give me what I really need.I dont want to loose this chance.This seems to be my final chance.I'm moorkh/foolish one.I've no wisdom.How can I find true gurmukhs?It's you who will send them for me.O sachepatsh!! Dasam Patsah !! All is in your hands.please show mercy upon me and send these great 5 souls for me so that I enters in your home/my true home.please!! Do an arrangement for me..Kaal is running after me.I dun want to be eaten at his hands.Give me the true Naam and then give me courage to do kamai of that Naam.I want to enjoy sehaj anand as per your words:

Anhad Shabad Dasam Dwaar Vajeyo ,teh Amrit Naam ChUaYa thaa

(The unstruck sounds of the shabad vibrates and resounds in the tenth gate,the ambrosial Naam trickles down there)

This is my only request to you"

Certainly Maharaj will help you.

 

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Singh123456777 I did reply to you... I told you he keeps telling me that there in Kashmir they don't think like this, and they have had females as Panj Pyaras and that he sees all humans as equal male and female alike.  He keeps telling me to not fall into this trap that has got so many Sikh girls stuck because of culture overriding what is actually in Gurbani.  But for me, it's the fact that so many Singhs think like this.  In my heart I don't feel it's males above females.  I don't feel inferior inside.  It's not that I won't take Amrit from 5 males.  Because I see them all as just same souls as me, same clay as me.  It's that THEY see me as less than them, as incapable, inferior and by giving into that, I am making a statement that I agree that as a female I am inferior to them because of something I had no control over... my gender.  In my mind, this is no different than casteism and Brahmins thinking they are higher over dalits simply because they were born into a Brahmin body and that the dalit is incapable, low spiritually, etc.  While some of you just can't seem to see past the physical, I can't stop seeing the same light in everyone.  So it's not the idea of taking amrit from males, but the idea those males are perpetuating that I am somehow inferior to them for being in a female body, that they possess some divine light that I don't, that Guru Ji cares more about his Singhs than his Kaurs - to the point that Gurus Light would actually avoid females.  That thought, it just makes me feel dirty inside - I mean if Guru Ji would avoid this body then why should I embrace it and like it?  I hate my body, hate being female, and hate being seen as only incapable, inferior, disgusting and I don't want to feel like this anymore.  I actually want to feel what it's like to have respect from Singhs... to be seen as capable, strong, superior, courageous, spiritual.  I don't want to be seen anymore as incapable, inferior, emotional, dirty, impure, such that Guru Ji's light would even avoid this body.  How can it not be a punishment???  As for the marriage, I'm not sure where that stands now.  He is trying to convince me that only a small percentage think like you guys and that he will show me when I get there next week and that this is not the thought of majority of the panth, only those certain sects. But you guys keep saying the opposite... that most of the panth think of women this way. I am so mixed up right now and upset.  

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Singh123456777 ,  relax. This is not a competition, regardless of our differing views.

Satkiran, simply put, if you belive that females can be in the 5, then OK. Because, firstly, at least you know enough to have a view on this. And secondly, don't back down now. Take amrit, from 5 males/females. And progress from there. Just pray that they are spiritually strong. Because I firmly believe that if we make a small mistake on this path, the Guru will set us right. IF it is wrong to have 5 females, the Guru will set you right. If you are right , then all good. 

It is more important that they are chardi kala gursikhs.

Take amrit, you're so close....

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Read my whole post then answer. Or answer in a pm. 

AN AMRITDHARI CAN ONLY MARRY AN AMRITDHARI!! Do you understand that? 

This is why I am so upset, because I don't know what to do. I can't go through the motions of something where I am being made to be inferior and incapable etc. just for being female.  My marriage is in question now... and basically my whole future.  

p.s. I thought some of you were under the impression that Amrit was never originally meant for women anyway... the whole kirpan amrit thing just so the wives could still be obedient little servants for their husbands and their husbands could eat the food they prepared??

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