What is Yoga please discuss in details!

[Niranjana]

Xylitol asked "but don't you feel the example of baba harnam singh ji actually shows this gurbani tuk's practical effect? that it's an example showing people the bani is true?"

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In your earlier post you stated the following:

"in baba harnam singh ji rampur khera's jeevan sakhi, we have an incident narrated where baba ji didn't eat or drink anything for a long period of time, if memory serves it was either one month or 40 days. he was sealed in a cave, when he came out he had not lost even one pound of weight. he had done this to test a shabd that claimed Gurbani was food and water."

With due respect, who is the author of this sakhi? What do we know of their credentials and in what context was the above account relayed?

[Matheen]

Niranjana, I once met Bhagat Hari Singh ( they were originally from Kenya and given the title Bhagat ji by Sant Puran Singh Kerichowale). Several times they would sit down at the start of an Akhand Path and remain sitting till the end, only getting up for Madh di Ardas on the 2nd day before sitting down again. Once after bhog someone asked them to have langar - their reply was that they just had Parontey with Akaal Purkh, and have no hunger, then they left.

My point is that somethings can't be explained in black and white. Faith is a powerful thing.

Baba Harnam Singh's story as described above didn't take place that long ago, relatively speaking.

[Xylitol]

the sakhi is written in Se Kineheya by Baba ji's student, Sant Sewa Singh ji (Rampur Khera). The book details baba ji's life, and at that point in his life, it seems like he had a lot of sharda in Gurbani, but wanted to see a real life display of its power.

[Niranjana]

Matheen,

That is an interesting account that you presented, however it doesn't really add anything material to the discussion at hand, which really seeks to address the statement of w-bol concerning Gurbani being food and water enough (in a physical sense) for a Sikh. The following issues have arisen from this discussion as a result:

(1) All examples of Gurbani provided on this thread would appear to point towards 'internal hunger' (i.e. desires etc), akin to the Shabad by Guru Amar Das ("antar trishna margayee"), however are being interpreted here in literally as physical hunger under the guise of 'faith'.

(2) This leads into the topic of "karamat" where it appears people are divided upon in terms of what constitutes 'karamat' and when or if ever it should be used. If it is to be used for the betterment of people or society, as some have suggested, then what about serious issues such as world hunger amongst other similar matters?

[Xylitol]

i have no doubt that there exist sikhs today who have the power to end world hunger. but i also believe that such powerful beings would live in Akaal's Hukum. all this dukh in the world forces people to remember God (and saves them much suffering later on). Perhaps, if these people all had sukh they would forget and than lose this human janam.

I believe it is acceptable for karamat to be used, examples are found in Bani and in the lives of ourGurus and sants. But i'm not sure exactly when it's ok to use.

and a possible defintion of karamat - a display of power that seems unnatural to the mind of those who have no experience with riddh siddh or spiritual miracles etc. ??

For example, the Guru refused to display powers to appease Jehangir. yet, Mecca turned around to face the Guru. Similarly, a mandir physically turned around to face God's Bhagat.

[Niranjana]

I believe it is acceptable for karamat to be used, examples are found in Bani and in the lives of ourGurus and sants. But i'm not sure exactly when it's ok to use.

and a possible defintion of karamat - a display of power that seems unnatural to the mind of those who have no experience with riddh siddh or spiritual miracles etc. ??

For example, the Guru refused to display powers to appease Jehangir. yet, Mecca turned around to face the Guru. Similarly, a mandir physically turned around to face God's Bhagat.

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Xylitol,

Gurbani certainly does point towards the existence of Saints and that the world is sustained by their presence.

That said, your comments concerning pain being a necessary part of the world is also alluded to in Gurbani, however the question was asked earlier since people are suggesting on one hand that pain (and issues such as World Hunger) are Hukam yet simultaneously defend 'miracles' attributed to their favourite Sant as permissable despite these going against Hukam, because they "help people", if this is the case, would it not be a greater good to end World hunger than to be perform some other seemingly trivial miracle?

The account of Mecca turning around the Gurus feet is not actually found in any Sikh text - the attriuting of miracles to our Gurus and Sikh figures appears to be an interesting innovation along the lines of other religious traditions.

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