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10 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

What do you personally believe regarding this Sakhi? And by that I mean do you believe it's suggesting as a blanket statement that by consuming alcohol one runs the risk of being born a Muslim in their next janam?

Legit wondering what you believe here because, quite a few people (namely Taksalis) seem to use this Sakhi to promote the belief I have stated above. As some sort of deterrent or guilt trip. Not denying the Sakhi btw...but thoroughly disagree when it is used to make this argument.

 

Gurbar Akaal!

I think drinking alcohol near your death will definitely result in rebirth in a lower family. I think that this sakhi portrays both things, namely,  being born in a Muslim family would be lower than a Hindu and also that alcohol can bring about bad karma. 

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On 11/2/2018 at 4:35 AM, tva prasad said:

I think drinking alcohol near your death will definitely result in rebirth in a lower family. I think that this sakhi portrays both things, namely,  being born in a Muslim family would be lower than a Hindu and also that alcohol can bring about bad karma. 

Thanks, I agree. Still unsure about the message Taksalis attach to this Sakhi though.

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Whats funny is how in puratan granths there is panktis that are written about sikhs drinking sharaab 🤔. Who are we to know whats right or wrong. Again im not promoting alcohol even one bit, all im saying is we need to look at context before we categorize something and make it a rule.

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29 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Whats funny is how in puratan granths there is panktis that are written about sikhs drinking sharaab 🤔. Who are we to know whats right or wrong. Again im not promoting alcohol even one bit, all im saying is we need to look at context before we categorize something and make it a rule.

It would be nice if you could share such sources in their original form. 

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2 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Whats funny is how in puratan granths there is panktis that are written about sikhs drinking sharaab 🤔. Who are we to know whats right or wrong. Again im not promoting alcohol even one bit, all im saying is we need to look at context before we categorize something and make it a rule.

Yeah I heard a nihang about this one time. He said the Singhs that seemed weak were made to drink alcohol before battle. The others drank sukha. Do they do anything before consuming alcohol, like a maryada or something?

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7 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

It would be nice if you could share such sources in their original form. 

One source would be Naveen Panth Parkash written by Gyani Gyan Singh. 

ਸੁੱਖਾ ਫੀਮ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਕਬਾਬੈਂ ਛਕੈਂ ਜਿਿਤਕ ਮਨ ਭਾਵੈ |

this is just one pankti.

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8 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

One source would be Naveen Panth Parkash written by Gyani Gyan Singh. 

ਸੁੱਖਾ ਫੀਮ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਕਬਾਬੈਂ ਛਕੈਂ ਜਿਿਤਕ ਮਨ ਭਾਵੈ |

this is just one pankti.

Why don't you post the whole source with a page reference point?

 

You've been on this forum for years. You know we have these standards. 

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On 11/7/2018 at 5:46 AM, dalsingh101 said:

Why don't you post the whole source with a page reference point?

 

You've been on this forum for years. You know we have these standards. 

Sadly, i have actually stopped visiting these forums and when i do (which is once in a blue moon) im always on my mobile. All my reference notes are in my laptop.

So do give me some time to go back to my notes.

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42 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Sadly, i have actually stopped visiting these forums and when i do (which is once in a blue moon) im always on my mobile. All my reference notes are in my laptop.

So do give me some time to go back to my notes.

Cool. You know I've always found that when we start looking deeper into these non Singh Sabha sources, we get a wealth of otherwise suppressed information regarding our history. 

Giani Gian Singh is a legend. 

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9 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Cool. You know I've always found that when we start looking deeper into these non Singh Sabha sources, we get a wealth of otherwise suppressed information regarding our history. 

Giani Gian Singh is a legend. 

At the risk of repeating myself...it's amazing how so much of this supressed information, and to what extent, is antithetical to the popular and average Sikh frame of mind i.e. Sikh"ism"/Singh Sabha narratives.

I sometimes can't believe how divergent Sikhi became. Having a reform is one thing but one could go as far to say they practically reinvented the faith. They pushed their ideology as the standard for Sikhi which is so deepy rooted now that people dismiss information from the past as bullshit; it does not even come under consideration in many instances.

Once you start to wrap your head around pre-colonial/SS Sikhi, and even taking into account possible interpolations etc, there is enough evidence to categorically state that there was an agenda.

 

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24 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

At the risk of repeating myself...it's amazing how so much of this supressed information, and to what extent, is antithetical to the popular and average Sikh frame of mind i.e. Sikh"ism"/Singh Sabha narratives.

I sometimes can't believe how divergent Sikhi became. Having a reform is one thing but one could go as far to say they practically reinvented the faith. They pushed their ideology as the standard for Sikhi which is so deepy rooted now that people dismiss information from the past as bullshit; it does not even come under consideration in many instances.

Once you start to wrap your head around pre-colonial/SS Sikhi, and even taking into account possible interpolations etc, there is enough evidence to categorically state that there was an agenda.

 

Okay, but the flipside is true as well. The majority Hindu culture also tried to wrap itself around Sikhi and erode or blur very important differences between Sikh mat and Hindu mat. Singh Sabha went gradually from one extreme to the other. A lot of this was down to creating docile sepoys for the imperial army (in that they wouldn't question the fact that their homeland was occupied and that they had lost their political independence), or at least moulding them in a way that brits found acceptable. 

If Sikhs removed idols from Harmandir Sahib, for instance, it was a good thing. Yes, some of our writers of the past were heavily influenced by their previous beliefs and this influenced their works. Amidst all the tumult of the early wars with the Moghuls/Persians/Afghans SIkhs (rightly in my mind) probably thought that dealing with these issues weren't as pressing as the immediate life and death struggle they were facing. 

Sikhs DO have a distinct identity/culture - it's just the way SS pursued this pushed a lot of Sikhs into another territory altogether. 

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2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Okay, but the flipside is true as well. The majority Hindu culture also tried to wrap itself around Sikhi and erode or blur very important differences between Sikh mat and Hindu mat. Singh Sabha went gradually from one extreme to the other. A lot of this was down to creating docile sepoys for the imperial army (in that they wouldn't question the fact that their homeland was occupied and they had lost their political independence), or at least moulding them in a way that brits found acceptable. 

If Sikhs removed idols from Harmandir Sahib, for instance, it was a good thing. 

Sikhs DO have a distinct identity/culture - it's just the way SS pursued this pushed them into another territory altogether. 

Overall I agree with what you're saying. I'm not denying there was a need for some kind of revolution or lehar, but as you say Singh Sabha overshot it beyond a reasonable line. Indeed things may have started becoming blurred and fundamental differences/distinctions were being ignored between Sikh Mat and Hindu Mat, and yes this needed highlighting and correcting but this could have been achieved without creating the "us vs them" mindset. Where has this led, and what has this resulted in...the same things me, you and many others mentions. The bias, the sheer antipathy, the paranoia, the whitewashing, and in some cases hatred...of all things Hindu/Indic. The other repercussions are missionaries and shankavaadi Sikhs (if you can call them that).

Sikhi is distinct and Sikhi is niaara...have never denied this. But at the same time nor will I ever deny the Dharmic connection/s.

A very simplified way of summing it up is...Singh Sabha made keema out of something that was much needed and should have gone in a totally different direction.

Also, I think you're just better at wording things lol.

 

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4 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Overall I agree with what you're saying. I'm not denying there was a need for some kind of revolution or lehar, but as you say Singh Sabha overshot it beyond a reasonable line. Indeed things may have started becoming blurred and fundamental differences/distinctions were being ignored between Sikh Mat and Hindu Mat, and yes this needed highlighting and correcting but this could have been achieved without creating the "us vs them" mindset. Where has this led, and what has this resulted in...the same things me, you and many others mentions. The bias, the sheer antipathy, the paranoia, the whitewashing, and in some cases hatred...of all things Hindu/Indic. The other repercussions are missionaries and shankavaadi Sikhs (if you can call them that).

Sikhi is distinct and Sikhi is niaara...have never denied this. But at the same time nor will I ever deny the Dharmic connection/s.

A very simplified way of summing it up is...Singh Sabha made keema out of something that was much needed and should have gone in a totally different direction.

Also, I think you're just better at wording things lol.

 

Veer ji i agree with your post and you are right thats why we have lost so many of purtan ithas cos of the singh sabha movement as they cut down Sri Rehras Sahib and took out many banis from the purtan Sri Dasam Granth Sahib as Brahm Kavach,Ugardanti, Bhagauti Astoar and many banis which are preserved in das granthi and sri hazur sahib dasam granth sahib bir

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