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What is your Spiritual State during Sadness/Crying (ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ)


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Brothers, please have a look at this tuk.

ਸੁਖੀਏ ਕਉ ਪੇਖੈ ਸਭ ਸੁਖੀਆ ਰੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਸਭ ਰੋਗੀ ॥ (ANG 610)

To the happy person, everyone seems happy; to the sick person, everyone seems sick.

It is very clear from this tuk that people perceive other people's emotions, according to their state of mind. It is very much possible that the people who wrote (or thought) that Satguru jee was very sad (after Shaheedis), were indeed themselves full of grief and perceived Satguru jee to be affected by human emotions. 

Amardeep paaji - We should be in a position to nullify the account of the Udasi poet, based on Gurbani and the counter evidence available.

More information on how perception can make a big difference:

Baba Budda jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Brahangyani.

Baba Bala jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Saint.

Baba Mardanna jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Ragi.

Second master perceived first master, as the almighty Lord.

Each one achieved the level, they perceived.

Bhul chuk maaf

EXACTLY!!

You become what you perceive.

Bhagat, you perceive that Gurus cried in grief. Guru had bhog.

I choose to perceive that Gurus did not cry. They did not physically Bhog. They are Nirankar. And they are above the avtars like Sri Rama. 

This is the same kind of thinking that made Ghagge to write that Guru Arjun Dev Ji became unconscious when sitting on hot plate. The Singhs questioned him and asked for an apology later.

 

 

 

 

 

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How do you know that Guru sahibs didn't cry?

You have Guru Nanak Dev ji telling you that it is human nature to cry.

ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਊਭਿ ਚੜਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ

He then tells you that God himself cried.

ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

What leads you to believe that he never cried himself?

Guru Nanak Dev ji is saying -

1. That crying is a natural phenomenon of the body, just like any other.

2. When it arises, it is hukam, and to obey that hukam, to let it happen is the best thing one can do.

ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥

I know  Guru Sahibs did not cry because Guru Nanak left Mata Sulakhni for a better person. Unlike, Sri Rama ji who felt pain & grief upon separation from Sita Ji, as per SGGS.

Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji did not cry when he gave hukum to Baba Atal Rai to leave his body since he violated a natural principle.

Sri Rama ji was a 14 kala avatar.

Sri Krishna Ji was 16 kala avtar. I could not find any example of Sri Krishna ji crying in grief. 

Sri Guru Nanak Ji anant kala, countless kala avtar.

Obviously, it is human nature to cry.  But Gurus do not cry in grief. They already know the events. Lets suppose they did cry, it would be drama, without attached to grief.

ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥

Treat the happiness & sadness the same, thus a brahmgyani will stay untouched, he will neither be sad nor happy.

 

 

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Ragmaala and Paapiman,
 

Tuhada dona da test hon lagga hun, tyar hojo!

 

1. Have you been practicing naam simran? Have you been keeping a routine?

2. What is your experience in day to day life while meditating?

Crying in love for God or separation from God

3. What does it mean "to separate from God"?

4. What does it mean to "cry in love for God'?

Attachment/Moh is one of the vices that a Sikh has to let go or a brahmgyani controls. 

5. What is attachment?

6. What does it mean to be a lotus in the mud?

 

ਇਕਸੁ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸੋਗ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥੩

Attuned to the Love of the One, there is no sorrow or suffering. ||3||

7. What is suffering?

8. How do you differentiate suffering from pain?

9. What does it mean to take avtaar?

10. What laws is the highest avtaar bound to?

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I've heard people say the Guru's did not even have bodies. How then was it possible for Guru Arjan and Guru Tegh Bahadur to achieve shaheedi if there was no body?

Dasam Guru says:

ਜਬ ਜਬ ਹੋਤ ਅਰਿਸਟ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

ਤਬ ਤਬ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥

ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਪੇਖ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

ਅੰਤਹ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

 

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I've heard people say the Guru's did not even have bodies. How then was it possible for Guru Arjan and Guru Tegh Bahadur to achieve shaheedi if there was no body?

Dasam Guru says:

ਜਬ ਜਬ ਹੋਤ ਅਰਿਸਟ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

ਤਬ ਤਬ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥

ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਪੇਖ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

ਅੰਤਹ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

 

Bro, Satguru jee had a body, but he could become body-less at will. There is historical evidence for that:

-  No one could find the body of first master

-  Second master's body also disappeared, during the Antim Sanskaar (death ceremony)

-  Tenth master become pawan roop (form of air) at Hajoor sahib. Sikhs were able to see Satguru jee's holy feet, but were not able to touch it.

Bhul chuk maaf

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According to my understanding, divine has no rule as such against  greif, showing emotions via form- as everything is divine expression, in fact once we start boxing divine based on our pre-conceived notions and ideas we get into really slippery slope and confined divine based on our feeble limited conceptual mind. We should keep it open to both divine expression of satguru ji showing greif along with satguru showing no emotions as both are divine expressions and boxing them into which one is better one or another. then we start talking in duality as soon we do that, we loose a plot gurmat advait sidhant: undivided non dual reality.

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If we start attaching human/animal instincts/weaknesses like lust, greed, pain, suffering, fear, etc to Satguru jee (God), we (especially the ones who are beginners in spirituality) have a great potential for a confused mind.

If one thinks, Satguru jee cried or was remorseful after martyrdom of his children, then an idiot can also argue that Satguru jee had fear in him, which resulted in him, exiting the fort of Chamkaur. What will one say then?

Think about it:

1. If our Satguru jee was remorseful after martyrdom of his children, what kind of example would he have set for the extremely difficult times (1720 - 1765) ahead for Sikhs?

2. Do you think those great Sikh women, who scarified their newborn kids for our faith, were inspired by a guru, who cried/grieved over his kids?

Sangat jee - Don't get into this dangerous trap of associating human weaknesses/instincts to Satguru jee. This type of thinking will weaken one's faith in God.

Bhul chuk maaf 

Edited by paapiman
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Beta ji

you gotta test dat shiet

:P

I know what you are trying to get at .

But for a seeker, who is still in the initial stages , without any experience of their own, and even for advanced seekers; the safest way for them is to learn from the interpretation and analysis of  Gursikhi by a Pooran Brahmgyani and Mahapurakh. Because they have themselves done the kamai unlike us who only do kathni.

This is an internet forum, everyone expresses themselves with or without any experience of their own. I doubt that there is a Brahmgyani on this forum. So this applies to all including me : ਅਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਉ ਸਮੁੰਦ੍ਰ ਮਹਿ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥੩੯॥

Your reality is only based on your current experience of life or existence. As your experience change your idea of reality will change. Thus, I do not speak from experiences, I only trust the Bachans of Pooran Mahapurakhs who have done kamais and not kathni alone.

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I know what you are trying to get at.

Still I want you to attempt to answer them. Because that will put your understanding out into the open where it can be discussed.
You can get feedback to further make progress on your own path, whatever path you have chosen.

Thing is, in your previous replies from Wednesday, you are starting with a certain frame. Before I can respond to your previous replies, I need to know what your understanding is of the more fundamental concepts like suffering, avtaar, etc. So I need to understand the frame before I can respond.

You are a cool dude. I want to avoid a heated argument with you. I'd rather focus on helping you with your weaknesses and learning from your strengths.

Main tainu fail thodi na karna yaara, main tan tainu pass hunda dekhna hai!

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3. What does it mean "to separate from God"?

4. What does it mean to "cry in love for God'?

5. What is attachment?

6. What does it mean to be a lotus in the mud?

7. What is suffering?

8. How do you differentiate suffering from pain?

9. What does it mean to take avtaar?

10. What laws is the highest avtaar bound to?

3) Ignorance, Agyanta

4)  Vairagya

5) Ignorance, Agyanta

6) Gyan, enables one to live in world yet stay unattached

7) Desires

8) Pain = transient or permanent awareness of mind & body only

9)  Avtar = Appearance in Mat Lok

10) Laws are set by Nirankar.

I will reiterate again. Guru Nanak Sahib has given the example of Sri Ram Chandra Jee in the list of people who felt dukhi, the reason being separation from Sita Ji & Lakshman. You cannot deny that.  You can interpret dukh however you want, I interpret it as suffering or pain in common mans language.

And I am instructed by the Guru to

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥

Therefore, I will always say Guru Nanak Nirankar is the greatest & greater than previous avtars like Sri Ram Chandra Jee.

Edited by Ragmaala
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Paapiman is a moorakh. Please do not waste time with him.

Bhul chuk maaf

I don't believe that you believe that.

3) Ignorance, Agyanta

4)  Vairagya

5) Ignorance, Agyanta

6) Gyan, enables one to live in world yet stay unattached

7) Desires

8) Pain = transient or permanent awareness of mind & body only

9)  Avtar = Appearance in Mat Lok

10) Laws are set by Nirankar.

I will reiterate again. Guru Nanak Sahib has given the example of Sri Ram Chandra Jee in the list of people who felt dukhi, the reason being separation from Sita Ji & Lakshman. You cannot deny that.  You can interpret dukh however you want, I interpret it as suffering or pain in common mans language.

And I am instructed by the Guru to

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥

Therefore, I will always say Guru Nanak Nirankar is the greatest & greater than previous avtars like Sri Ram Chandra Jee.

3) Ignorance of what?
4) What is vairagya?
5) Attachment is ignorance? See 1.
6) Ok. What does it mean to live in the world?
7)Suffering is desires? What are desires?
8)Ok. Is there awareness of anything else?

You cannot deny that. 

I am not denying that Guru Sahib is talking about dukh. Dukh is the law of the world. What I am saying is that Dukh comes to everyone, even Guru Nanak Dev ji.

This is the law set by Parmatma, that everyone experiences dukh. Even when Parmatma takes an avtaar, he experiences dukh. Even though Guru Nanak Dev ji is Parmatma. When he takes human birth, he experiences all the things a human being experiences. He goes through it all.

That said, not everybody experiences dukh similarly. Guru Nanak Dev ji experiences dukh differently than how Ragmaala experiences dukh.

Guru Nanak Dev ji explains how he is experiencing dukh, and teaches us that we can raise our state to experience dukh like that. His teaching is composed of method to experience dukh the way he does.

But when you explain that people are immediately turned off "I hate dukh. I want to be sukhi". They are in that lower state where they are constantly running away from dukh and trying to find sukh everywhere. They are pleasure seekers and try to avoid pain all the time.

To tackle this dilemna, Guru Nanak Dev ji explains that even Parmatma experiences dukh.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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Ok, If by Dukh you mean external situations that Guru Jis had to face , yet they remained in Chardikala or unaffected then I agree with you. 

So what I mean then is the "response to Dukh". For example, sitting on a hot plate is obviously physical Dukh, getting beheaded is also a Dukh, or separation from a family is also Dukh. But how Guru Ji tackled the response to Dukh in above mentioned situations , was that of Shukrana, and contentment. 

Bhagat veer, can you provide me an example when Guru ji cried or shed tears when they felt physical Dukh ?

I know you are trying to speak from a deep perspective of life, where duh sukh doesn't matter, where tears or smile might mean the same thing. But for a common man like me, tears in response to dukh is sadness, whereas contentment in response to dukh is chardikala. And thats what we have been taught by Guru Ji until we reach the below mentioned stage :

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 633}

"To tackle this dilemna, Guru Nanak Dev ji explains that even Parmatma experiences dukh."

It is a good reasoning.I do not completely disagree , worth pondering. So if the crying of Sri Rama jee was infact to encourage people to stop running away from Dukh then it is a good line of reasoning.  

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It is a good reasoning.I do not completely disagree , worth pondering. So if the crying of Sri Rama jee was infact to encourage people to stop running away from Dukh then it is a good line of reasoning.  

I am not denying that Guru Sahib is talking about dukh. Dukh is the law of the world. What I am saying is that Dukh comes to everyone, even Guru Nanak Dev ji.

 

Bhagat Singh jee: Please remember that Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj (Avtaar of Sri Vishnu jee) had to separate and cry over Mata Sita jee as Sri Vishnu jee was cursed by Naarad Muni jee. 

No one can curse the greatest of all, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj. Therefore, Sri Vishnu jee cannot be put in the same category as Satguru jee.

Dukh which came to Satguru jee, seems like Dukh, to ordinary people like me. Satguru jee is Dukh-Bhanjan Swami and always in bliss.

Dhan Guru Nanak .............tu heen Nirankaar.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Ok, If by Dukh you mean external situations that Guru Jis had to face , yet they remained in Chardikala or unaffected then I agree with you.

Dukh is what arises in the Mun (mind) due to external situations.

Sense organs receive information.
And they direct this to the mind, which process that information.

The atma experiences all that activity and sensory reception.

When you look inside there is -

Atma ---- mind activity ------ sense organ reception

 

 

Most people are unaware of the atma. For them it is -

Mind activity ------ sense organ reception

So when they experience bad external situation.

Their sense organs relay this information to the mind.

The mind processes the pain into dukh or suffering.

There is nothing else available. They cannot take a safe shelter anywhere. Both their mind and body are traumatized.

 

But Gyani purush have atam gian. For them it is.

Atma ---- mind activity ------ sense organ reception

They have knowledge of atma and they know how to connect to it.

So when they experience bad external situation.

Their sense organs relay this information to the mind.

The mind processes the pain into dukh or suffering.

There is the atma there. And they can take safe shelter within the atma, even though the mind and body are suffering and in pain.

They still experience the dukh but it is fundamentally different from the common person.

 

So what I mean then is the "response to Dukh". For example, sitting on a hot plate is obviously physical Dukh, getting beheaded is also a Dukh, or separation from a family is also Dukh. But how Guru Ji tackled the response to Dukh in above mentioned situations , was that of Shukrana, and contentment. 

So when Guru Arjun Dev ji is sitting on a hot plate.

His body is getting burned. There is immense physical pain.

He takes shelter in the atma. There is immense pain, that is the law. He can fully experience that pain and reside in his atma.

It's actually possible to "turn off' physical pain, so if he had practiced doing that earlier, he may even have shut down his sensory organ reception during the torture.


However this is physical pain.

 

When your loved one dies, there is no physical pain, not as much. But there is a sense of loss. This pain is much deeper and it is rooted in the mind.

So when Guru Gobind Singh ji is in machhiwara.

His mind is in grief. Grief is processing of loss. So his mind is processing the loss of his children and close singhs.

He takes shelter in the atma. The mind is experiencing grief, that is the law. However he takes shelter in the atma.

 

When you take shelter in the atma , you accept his bhana.

Most people when they experience bad external situation - Their sense organs relay this information to the mind. The mind processes the pain into dukh or suffering.

Because there is no knowledge of atma. They become overwhelmed and then they fight the dukh. They fight the pain. They try to resist it. The do not accept it. So they do not accept parmatma's bhana. Ohna ne hukam nahi maneya.

They cannot.

Because they are agyani. They do not know how to accept it.

 

I know you are trying to speak from a deep perspective of life, where duh sukh doesn't matter, where tears or smile might mean the same thing.

I dunno what deep perspective is. I am simply explaining from my experience. These are things I have found out inside.

But for a common man like me, tears in response to dukh is sadness, whereas contentment in response to dukh is chardikala.

Tears are a spontaneous reaction. They are produced spontaneously by the body. They can come from a variety of reasons.

To let them flow is to accept his bhana, to obey the hukam. That which is spontaneous is his hukam.

"To tackle this dilemna, Guru Nanak Dev ji explains that even Parmatma experiences dukh."

It is a good reasoning.I do not completely disagree , worth pondering. So if the crying of Sri Rama jee was infact to encourage people to stop running away from Dukh then it is a good line of reasoning.  

Well that's why Guru Nanak Dev ji is mentioning it.  He also talks about how Parmatma is bound to karma when taking human birth. But that's another topic.

So think about that - "Parmatma experiences dukh"

And then try to see it inside of you as well. That's when you will get better understanding, is when you try to see it in yourself.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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Bhagat Singh jee: Please remember that Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj (Avtaar of Sri Vishnu jee) had to separate and cry over Mata Sita jee as Sri Vishnu jee was cursed by Naarad Muni jee. 

Before you read this post read the one above as it will explain the separation, dukh, crying etc.

So after that, now read this.

Why Stories?

1. These stories haves a deeper meaning.

2. The deeper meanings of these stories are there to convey spirituality.

3. It is a story, not a lecture because stories can be easily remembered and they stick to the mind. The stories can be passed down and the gyan from it can be extracted by new generations.

 

First let me go over the story.

Narad ji was the bhagat of Vishnu ji, formless, parmatma. Vishnu ji's hukam was that Narad ji should remain a brahmchari, without a wife.

But one day Narad ji saw a beautiful woman and wanted to get married. He went into a selection ceremony expecting to win her and her parents over.

However Vishnu ji made him appear ugly as a monkey to the bride and her parents. They rejected him. Narad ji was let down.

Being a giani purush, Narad ji accepted his hukam but spontaneously also cursed him. 

The curse was that Vishnu ji will be separated from his wife and will have to rely on a monkey.

So that's the story.

 

What is the deeper meaning?

The curse was two fold. The deeper meaning is understood when the characters are understood.

 

First Fold of the Curse

1. To humans, to us, Vishnu ji always appears separate from his wife, Maya. ie God appears to be separate from the world he created. We think creator and creation as if there is a separation.

2. Vishnu ji is in everything so he also relies on the body of a monkey. He resides in all species no matter how ugly.

Somewhere he is a man, somewhere he is a monkey.
Somewhere he is beautiful, somewhere he is ugly.

 

Second Fold of the Curse

When Vishnu ji took avtaar. It is said that he again respected the curse, again and again.

As Ram Chandar ji he lost his wife and relied on the monkey army to fight for him.

As Krishan ji he separated from Radha his first love.

And Guru Nanak Dev ji separated from Mata Sulakhini ji to do trade and to preach to people. (I think this is another reason why the Bhatts called him an avtaar of Vishnu ji in Guru Granth Sahib.)

 

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And Guru Nanak Dev ji separated from Mata Sulakhini ji to do trade and to preach to people. (I think this is another reason why the Bhatts called him an avtaar of Vishnu ji in Guru Granth Sahib.)

Bro, can you please list those tuks?

Satguru jee is not an avtaar of a devta (Sri Vishnu jee), but of the almighty Lord.

Bhul chuk maaf

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First Fold of the Curse

1. To humans, to us, Vishnu ji always appears separate from his wife, Maya. ie God appears to be separate from the world he created. We think creator and creation as if there is a separation.

 

Maya is not the wife of Sri Vishnu jee. Maya is above the three devtas and has deceived them.

 

ਸਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਲੀਆ ॥

No one is more powerful than the she-serpent Maya,

ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਛਲੀਆ ॥੧

who deceived even Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. ||1||

 

Only Satguru jee is above Maya. Maya is completely under him.

Bhul chuk maaf

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