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What is your Spiritual State during Sadness/Crying (ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ)

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So even though they were avatars in their times, they still had basic human emotions and qualities.

Whereas the Pooran Avtar In Kalyug Guru Nanak & Guru Gobind Singh ji did not even shed a tear when all his loved & obedient sons attained shaheedi.

Bro, you have a great point. No previous avtaars can be compared to Satguru jee.

According to Guru Granth Sahib ji, Ram Chandra ji is a Pooran avtar.

And in Guru Granth Sahib, all authors place him higher than themselves.

Remember this shabad from Guru Granth Sahib?
ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In Satyug, You (Vishnu) enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murare, killed Kans and saved everyone.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by His very command.

This shabad mentions the Pooran Avtars of that particular Yug.

 


"So what about crying? That's a human emotion. Isn't it better when you don't shed a tear? Ram Chandra ji is said to have cried, therefore he is not pooran avtar, right?"

Not shedding a tear - is also a human trait. Crying is also a human trait.

Not shedding a tear - is not always a special quality.

It is special when you are about to  face a challenge (or are in the middle of it). When you complete a challenge without shedding a tear (or whining, bitching, moaning) is a display of strength, it is bravery.

But when you are separated from someone you love; when a loved one has died or been kidnapped, then there is sadness. And blocking out the sadness and not crying is then a display of weakness, it is cowardice.

At that moment, facing your sadness fully and getting in the flow of sadness is bravery. There are often tears and crying. However it is still possible to maintain inner peace.

There is a misconception amongst many sikhs and even spiritual folks that when someone doesn't shed a tear, they are somehow more exalted than someone else who does.

You cannot ignore or become numb to sadness. When you become numb to emotions, you will become numb to Parmatma as well.

 

"However you can be at peace and not cry. Surely that is better than being at peace and still crying?"

Emotions - laughing, crying, etc - do not determine spiritual level; only inner spiritual state determines spiritual level.

As long as you have inner peace, it does not matter if you laugh or cry.

So consider "Not shedding a tear" a metaphor for inner that is not to be taken literally.

Being centered on Parmatma, while crying or laughing is what is actually spiritually exalted. Crying or laughing, when it becomes irrelevant to a being's inner state, then consider this being spiritually exalted.

Crying or laughing itself is irrelevant.

So there may be tears of sadness or joy, that doesn't mean one is not a pooran guru or pooran avtar.

ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਿੰਨੇ ਲੋਇਣਾ ਮਨੁ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਰਤੰਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥

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According to Guru Granth Sahib ji, Ram Chandra ji is a Pooran avtar

Paaji, Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj and Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj are Pooran Avtaars, but not Pooran Tam Avtaars.

Quote

6.) Pooran Tam Avtar- This is the highest Avtar. This was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. All avtars are made of satogun but according to Gurmat the early avtars were created out of maya, and hence caught up in it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji however was a 100% mirror reflection of God, and hence he was not hampered by the obstacles which hampered the earlier avtars.

Unquote [1] 

[1] - https://sikhunity.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/pooran-tam-avtar/

Therefore, we cannot put Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj and Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj in the same category, as Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj.

Bhul chuk maaf

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According to Guru Granth Sahib ji, Ram Chandra ji is a Pooran avtar.

Additionally brother, first master did not adopt any person as a guru.

-  Sri Ram Chandar jee Maharaaj had two gurus - Rikhi Vishisht jee and Rikhi Vishwamitar jee

-  Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj had one guru - Rikhi Sandepan jee

But, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj was the guru of gurus. Instead of adopting a guru, he taught his gurus (Pandit jee, Mullah jee, etc) about God.

Therefore, we must never ever equate anyone, with the greatest of all.

Naa koyee hoyeaa, naa koyee honna, maa gujari day chan varga

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj.

Dhan Guru Nanak .......tu heen Nirankaar.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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See the Amir Bhandaar teeka for a great discussion on avatarvaad in sikhi and how the Gurus and earlier avatars (Ram, Krishna etc) fit in. If I remember correctly, Baba ji places Guru Nanak, Krishna and Ram in the same category.

 

I've never read it myself but i've heard that Pandit Tara Singh Narotam had a similiar discussion in one of his granths though he categorizes the 10 Gurus in different avatar categories.

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Lol arbitary standards like having 0,1 or multiple gurus means nothing.

This is as arbitrary a standard for determining spiritual state as crying or laughing.

And please bro, don't post quotes from other people's writings.

Do not rely on others.

I want you to find out yourself what it says in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Please post your findings from Guru Granth Sahib ji.

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Before reading Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must keep the following instruction in our minds:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਭਉ ਕਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 647}ਮਹਾਂ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਵਿਚ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਦਾ ਬਚਨ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ (ਪਰ ਉਹ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ) ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਲਈ ਸਾਂਝੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ (ਸੁਣ ਕੇ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਡਰ (ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਧਾਰਨ) ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਦੀ ਖੋਜ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਲੋਂ ਉਦਾਸ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਬਾਹਰ ਭਟਕਣੋਂ ਹਟ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ)Thus, even though Mahapurakhs like Bhagat Namdev Ji is addressing a single person, it is our duty as Gurmukhs to learn from it.  

 

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਗੋਂਡ ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ਰਹਾਉ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥In the highlighted  line above, Bhagat Ji is taunting the Pandit about King Ramchandra Ji.  There must be some weakness, that Bhagat ji had to taunt Sri Rama.

 

ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1412}ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥

ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਕਰਤਾਰ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਕਰ ਸਕਣ ਦੀ ਸਮਰਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਦੇ ਝੁਰਨ ਦੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ), ਉਹ ਤਾਂ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਨਾਸ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਸ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ। ਵੇਖੋ, ਰਾਵਣ ਨਾਲ ਲੜਾਈ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਫ਼ੌਜਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਅੰਦਰ (ਫ਼ੌਜਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ) ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਭੀ ਹੈ, ਵਾਨਰਾਂ ਦੀ (ਉਸ) ਫ਼ੌਜ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਉਸ ਦੀ) ਸੇਵਾ ਭੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਸੈਨਾ ਦੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਤਨ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੱਧ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਚਾਉ ਹੈ, (ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ (ਤਦੋਂ) ਦੁਖੀ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ, ਜਦੋਂ) ਸੀਤਾ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਰਾਵਣ ਲੈ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ, (ਤੇ, ਫਿਰ ਜਦੋਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਭਾਈ) ਲਛਮਨ ਸਰਾਪ ਨਾਲ ਮਰ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ।25।ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਤਾਂ) ਬੇ-ਮੁਥਾਜ ਹੈ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ)। (ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ (ਜੀ) ਪਾਸੋਂ ਵੀ ਨਾਹ ਮਿਟ ਸਕੀ। (ਵੇਖੋ, ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਸੀਤਾ (ਜੀ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ (ਜਦੋਂ ਸੀਤਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਵਣ ਚੁਰਾ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਗਿਆ, ਫਿਰ) ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ ਲਛਮਣ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ (ਜਦੋਂ ਰਣਭੂਮੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਛਮਨ ਬਰਛੀ ਨਾਲ ਮੂਰਛਿਤ ਹੋਇਆ)। (ਤਦੋਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਨੇ) ਹਨੂਮਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕੀਤਾ ਜੋ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਲੋਂ ਬਣੇ) ਸੰਜੋਗ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ) ਆਇਆ ਸੀ। ਮੂਰਖ ਰਾਵਣ (ਭੀ) ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਨਾਹ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਕੰਮ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ (ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਕੀਤੇ ਸਨ।26।

In the above Shabad, Guru Nanak Dev Ji says,  Sri Ram is feeling sorrow, is in despair due to separation from Sita as well as unconsciousness of Lakshman. 

 

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ਪਰਸ ਰਾਮੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ਅਜੈ ਸੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਐਸੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਲੰਕ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਆਦੀ ਡਉਰੂ ਵਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਰੋਵੈ ਜਨਮੇਜਾ ਖੁਇ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਪੀ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਪੀਰ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਮਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੀੜ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਇ ॥ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਸੰਚਹਿ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਇ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਬਾਲੀ ਰੋਵੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953-954}

 

Guru Nanak dev ji gave the example of Sri Rama under the category of people who cried because of suffering or sorrow. Thus, from the above examples in Guru Granth Sahib that I have provided, it is clear in my mind that the crying of Sri Rama was in context of separation from Sita Ji & Sri Lakhsman. He felt the emotions of sufferin, pain, sorrow , attachment and thus cried. Whereas the Brahm is Sat Chit Ananda, no fluctuation of emotions neither any pain of separation from a loved one.

 Except for the relation between Guru & Disciple,  which is different from worldly relations, can any one say that Guru Ji cried when their brother or wife was separated from them ?

 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਘਰੁ ੨ ॥ ਬਾਨਾਰਸੀ ਤਪੁ ਕਰੈ ਉਲਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਰੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਦਹੈ ਕਾਇਆ ਕਲਪੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਅਸੁਮੇਧ ਜਗੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਸੋਨਾ ਗਰਭ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਛੋਡਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਰੇ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਮਨ ਕਪਟੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਗੰਗਾ ਜਉ ਗੋਦਾਵਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਕੁੰਭਿ ਜਉ ਕੇਦਾਰ ਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਈਐ ਗੋਮਤੀ ਸਹਸ ਗਊ ਦਾਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਕਰੈ ਤਨੁ ਜਉ ਹਿਵਾਲੇ ਗਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੨॥ ਅਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਗਜ ਦਾਨ ਸਿਹਜਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ਐਸੋ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਆਤਮ ਜਉ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਆਪ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੩॥ ਮਨਹਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਰੋਸੁ ਜਮਹਿ ਨ ਦੀਜੈ ਦੋਸੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 973}

The literal translation of highlighted line is surprising coming from Bhagat Namdev Ji. But here is the interpretation of another scholar:

pr cOQy pd ivc Acncyq rwjw jsrQ dy pu`qr sRI rwm cMdr jI dw nwm Aw jwxw hYrwnI ivc pw dyNdw hY [ keI s`jx ArQ krdy hn—“rwjw jsrQ dy pu`qr dw rwjw” [ ieh ArQ Zlq hY ikauNik l&z ‘nµdu’ dw ArQ hY ‘pu`qr’; “pu`qr dw” nhIN ho skdw; jy ies dw ArQ huMdw “pu`qr dw” qW ies l&z dy hyT (   u ) nw huMdw [ keI s`jx ieh smJdy hn ik sRI rwm cMdr jI ny v`fy v`fy kMm kIqy hn, ies vwsqy iehnW kMmW ƒ prmwqmw dy kMm d`s ky l&z “rwm cMdu” ƒ prmwqmw vwsqy vriqAw hY [ ieh BI AnhoxI g`l hY [ iPr, ies g`l dI kIh loV sI ik sRI rwm cMdr jI dy ipqw dw nwm BI d`isAw jWdw? l&z ik®Sn, dwmodr, mwDo, murwir, rwm, rwm cMd Awidk BgqW ny qy sqgurU jI ny BI sYNkVy vwrI prmwqmw vwsqy vrqy hn; pr jdoN iksy dy ipqw dw nwm BI nwl id`qw jwey, qW aus vyly aus nwm ƒ prmwqmw vwsqy nhIN vriqAw jw skdw [ iPr qW iksy ^ws ivAkqI dw izkr hI ho skdw hY [

 

 ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1390}

(ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ!) ਸਤਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ (ਭੀ) ਤੂੰ ਹੀ (ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਜੋਗ) ਮਾਣਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਲਿ ਨੂੰ ਛਲਿਆ ਸੀ ਤੇ ਤਦੋਂ ਵਾਮਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਬਣਨਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਸੀ। ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ (ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਜੋਗ) ਮਾਣਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੀ ਰਾਮ ਅਖਵਾਇਆ ਸੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ! ਮੇਰੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਹੈਂ ਵਾਮਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਹੈਂ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੀ ਰਾਮ)।

My final thought , as per my current understanding :

Sri Rama Chandra Jee was a pooran avtar in His age, but not equal to Guru Nanak who is Pure Brahm Pure Bliss without fluctuation in emotions or feeling sorrow .

 

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Good work compiling those Ragmaala. You are quite learned indeed.

However I disagree haha.

Btw I have plans to address these shabads you mentioned, in my "Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji" series. They show up very often and so i simply plan to address them all in one place.

 http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17002-botched-translations-of-guru-granth-sahib-ji-part-1-ਕਬੀਰ-ਰਾਮ-ਕਹਨ-ਮਹਿ-ਭੇਦੁ-ਹੈ/

Just did part 1, I will get to the rest of them eventually. And we can discuss each one in more depth in those threads.

(If you wish I can also address those interpretations by those scholars.)

 

However in this thread I want to look at the sadness angle. Does being sad, or crying make one less spiritual? This is the question that I am addressing. My answer - No, feeling sadness does not make you less spiritual. It is irrelevant.

I do want to say that this answer is from my own experience. I know this because I do it. However unlike Hanuman ji, I cannot rip apart my chest and demonstrate that feeling. So I will have to demonstrate via other ways.

 

Guru Nanak who is Pure Brahm Pure Bliss without fluctuation in emotions or feeling sorrow .

Do you agree that everything there is, is Pure Brahm, Pure Bliss? Sabh Gobind Hai? ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

Do you agree that he is the experiencer? That he experiences what we do?
ਜੋਗੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਜੋਗੀਆ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਭੋਗੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭੋਗੀਆ ॥

So somewhere out there, Pure Brahm is a yogi. Somewhere out there, Pure Brahm is a bhogi. He is there in all. he experiences what you experience. He is Antaryami. ਤੂੰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥

 

Somewhere, there is a man who is in bliss. Somewhere, there is a man who is feeling sad.

Who is feeling this bliss and sadness?

Brahm.
Thus, somewhere Pure Brahm is in bliss. Somewhere Pure Brahm is experiencing sadness.
When you feel bliss, Pure Brahm feels bliss. When you feel sad, Pure Brahm feels sad.

Ragmaala, inside you are pure Brahm, but you also experience all the emotional states that you do.

(Do I see that in myself? - this question is the moment-by-moment spiritual self inquiry of a spiritual person)

 

So Pure Brahm can feel sad and this does not take away from there being any feeling of sadness, neither does feeling sad take away from Pure Brahm. You can be extremely depressed and pure Brahm is still experiencing this depression that you might be going through. That does not make Pure Brahm any less than he is.

He is in all things, experiences what they experience and yet involved and unaffected by those things at the same time. Almost paradoxically, he is sadness, he is the experience of sadness and he is neither.

 

So a Brahmgyani, one with knowledge of Brahm, experiences everything to its highest level, whether it is sadness or bliss, and maintains the knowledge of Brahm, whilst experiences those things.

Guru Nanak Dev ji being a Brahmgyani, can feel sadness and recognize Pure Brahm at the same time.

Btw this is why he can talk about sadness since you have to know first know what sadness is before you can even talk about it. If you stop experiencing sadness, you can no longer relate to other people who feel sad thus you cannot guide them out of it.

Like a tour guide must go back and forth between the starting point and the destination. However unlike the tourists, the tour guide has knowledge of the destination and if he is a skilled instructor, he can guide people to the destination.

Thus "not shedding a tear" must be taken as a metaphor for the inner state, rather than the outer state, in which one might be shedding many tears.

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However in this thread I want to look at the sadness angle.

Does being sad, or crying make one less spiritual?

This is the question that I am addressing. My answer - No, feeling sadness does not make you less spiritual. It is irrelevant.

Sadness is a state of mind expressed through physical body postures, facial expressions & physiological phenomenon such as tearing. One could be sad and not show it at all , without putting an effort in suppressing it. One could be strong enough to not let the state of mind affect their physical  body, effortlessly. After all, emotions are a play of various neuromodulators & neurotransmitters such as Dopamine, Serotonin, Anandamite- a new chemical discovered responsible for bliss etc . One could be so perfect , that they are separate from mind & body. But at the same time, one could be so perfect that they can show physical phenomenon of sadness evident by tears but their mind is not affected at all. I am open to believe that maybe Sri Rama was playing a drama all along, not being involved at all. But this would not be helpful for my current experience. So , I have to rest my mind somewhere, and I choose to believe the words of Gurbani which mentions Sri Rama crying because he felt separation from wife & brother.

In my opinion, sadness or crying does not make one less spiritual. But it does separate them from those who are completely established beings. For example, Sri Rama vs Sikh Gurus. For example, When Sikh Gurus were in the same position as Sri Rama , they did not cry due to pain of separation. My current conditioning of mind leads me to believe that crying is a sign of weakness, in context of the Avtars.

However, leaving Sri Rama & Guru Nanak aside, as a spiritual seeker, sadness truly is irrelevant for me.  As Guru ji says, minds emotions are always soaring up & down, it is basic human nature :

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧ ਚਉਪਦੇ ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਪੜਤਾ ਸਹਸਾਕਿਰਤਾ ਕੋਈ ਪੜੈ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਅਬ ਹੀ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਹਰੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਵਨ ਗਤੇ ॥ ਹਮ ਮੂਰਖ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਲਾਜ ਪਤੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਊਭਿ ਚੜਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ ਲੋਭੀ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਤੁ ਹੈ ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾ ਭਾਲੇ ॥੨॥ ਮਰਣੁ ਲਿਖਾਇ ਮੰਡਲ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਹਿ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਏਕਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਦੇਖਹ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭਾਹਿ ਬਲੰਤੀ ਆਈ ॥੩॥ ਨ ਕਿਸੀ ਕਾ ਮੀਤੁ ਨ ਕਿਸੀ ਕਾ ਭਾਈ ਨਾ ਕਿਸੈ ਬਾਪੁ ਨ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਤੂ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਅੰਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਸਖਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 876}


 

Do you agree that everything there is, is Pure Brahm, Pure Bliss? Sabh Gobind Hai? ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥Do you agree that he is the experiencer? That he experiences what we do?ਜੋਗੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਜੋਗੀਆ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਭੋਗੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭੋਗੀਆ ॥So somewhere out there, Pure Brahm is a yogi. Somewhere out there, Pure Brahm is a bhogi. He is there in all. he experiences what you experience. He is Antaryami. ਤੂੰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥Somewhere, there is a man who is in bliss. Somewhere, there is a man who is feeling sad.Who is feeling this bliss and sadness?Brahm.Thus, somewhere Pure Brahm is in bliss. Somewhere Pure Brahm is experiencing sadness.When you feel bliss, Pure Brahm feels bliss. When you feel sad, Pure Brahm feels sad.

I agree with all the above.  And just to add more about all pervading Brahm:

ਕਤਹੂੰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਬਿਚਾਰ ਕੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਤ ਹੋ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰਿ ਪਰਨਾਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਿਕੇਤ ਹੋ ॥

Just to go along with what you said, the Brahm is not exclusive only to sadness, but things like when a person is bhoging another Man's wife, it truly is the Brahm who is bhoging Brahm in female body.

 

Ragmaala, inside you are pure Brahm, but you also experience all the emotional states that you do.

(Do I see that in myself? - this question is the moment-by-moment spiritual self inquiry of a spiritual person)

Yes, it truly is the ultimate state or ultimate goal. But the only one I know who has experienced is, through their writings, the great Dhan Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji Maharaj :)

 

So Pure Brahm can feel sad and this does not take away from there being any feeling of sadness, neither does feeling sad take away from Pure Brahm. You can be extremely depressed and pure Brahm is still experiencing this depression that you might be going through. That does not make Pure Brahm any less than he is.He is in all things, experiences what they experience and yet involved and unaffected by those things at the same time. Almost paradoxically, he is sadness, he is the experience of sadness and he is neither.So a Brahmgyani, one with knowledge of Brahm, experiences everything to its highest level, whether it is sadness or bliss, and maintains the knowledge of Brahm, whilst experiences those things.Guru Nanak Dev ji being a Brahmgyani, can feel sadness and recognize Pure Brahm at the same time.Btw this is why he can talk about sadness since you have to know first know what sadness is before you can even talk about it. If you stop experiencing sadness, you can no longer relate to other people who feel sad thus you cannot guide them out of it.Like a tour guide must go back and forth between the starting point and the destination. However unlike the tourists, the tour guide has knowledge of the destination and if he is a skilled instructor, he can guide people to the destination.Thus "not shedding a tear" must be taken as a metaphor for the inner state, rather than the outer state, in which one might be shedding many tears.

Good points.

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When should we cry according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?

Here Guru Ji talks about those who cry in love for God.

ਮਃ ਅੰਦਰਹੁ ਝੂਠੇ ਪੈਜ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਫੈਲੁ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜੇ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਉਤਰੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈਲੁ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਟੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਗੁਦੜੁ ਤੇ ਭਲੇ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਰਬ ਸੇਤੀ ਦੇਖਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਚੁਪ ਭੀ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਾਝੁ ਸਚੇ ਨਾਹ ਦਰਿ ਵਾਟ ਉਪਰਿ ਖਰਚੁ ਮੰਗਾ ਜਬੈ ਦੇਇ ਖਾਹਿ ਦੀਬਾਨੁ ਏਕੋ ਕਲਮ ਏਕਾ ਹਮਾ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮੇਲੁ ਦਰਿ ਲਏ ਲੇਖਾ ਪੀੜਿ ਛੁਟੈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਉ ਤੇਲੁ ॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 473}

 

Crying in pain due to separation from God:

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਿਉ ਸਿਮਰੀ ਸਿਵਰਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਇ ਤਪੈ ਹਿਆਉ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਬਿਲਲਾਇ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਸਰਿਐ ਚੰਗਾ ਕਿਉ ਹੋਇ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਚਿ ਮਿਲਉ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ਰਹਾਉ ਵਖਰੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਖਣ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਇ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਖੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਖਾਇ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਤੀਣੈ ਨਾ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਪਤਿ ਰਹੈ ਰਾਖੈ ਜਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ਤੁਧੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਰੇ ਕੀਤੈ ਕਿਆ ਹੋਇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਬਖਸੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਇ ਹੁਣਿ ਉਠਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਮੁਹਤਿ ਕਿ ਤਾਲਿ ਕਿਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਸਾ ਗੁਣ ਨਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤੈਸਾ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ {ਪੰਨਾ 661}

 

 

When we forget God:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਮੰਞੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਤੂ ਕਿਉ ਮਰੀਜੈ ਰੋਇ ਜਾ ਲਗੁ ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵਹੀ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 791-792}

 

 

Edited by Ragmaala

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Lol arbitary standards like having 0,1 or multiple gurus means nothing.

This is as arbitrary a standard for determining spiritual state as crying or laughing.

And please bro, don't post quotes from other people's writings.

Do not rely on others.

I want you to find out yourself what it says in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Please post your findings from Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Paaji, please have a look.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17004-satguru-nanak-jee-is-greater-than-lord-raamkrishan-jee/

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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Bro you are again relying on false sources instead of the true source, Guru Granth Sahib.

This missionary is ignorant about Treta yug, age, beard, historical events, miracles, etc he gets a lot of things wrong. Where he gets it right, his approach is incorrect. It is also devoid of spiritual practice.

I am not interested in discussing missionary work.

I am only interested in discussing Guru Granth Sahib and other spiritual texts. So I urge you to read Guru Granth Sahib and post things from there, like how Ragmaala did. Then we can discuss what Guru Sahib is saying.

Hopefully as you read my 'Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib' series, you will get a better picture.

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This missionary is ignorant about Treta yug, age, beard, historical events, miracles, etc he gets a lot of things wrong. Where he gets it right, his approach is incorrect. It is also devoid of spiritual practice.

I am not interested in discussing missionary work.

 

Bro, are you sure he is a missionary? He does not seem like one.

Bhul chuk maaf

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In my opinion, sadness or crying does not make one less spiritual. But it does separate them from those who are completely established beings. For example, Sri Rama vs Sikh Gurus.

Person A -  well, my guru did not have sex and reproduce. Thus he is higher than Guru Nanak Dev ji because he controlled his basic urge.

Person B - well my guru did neither ate nor had sex, he controlled his basic desire of hunger and sex, thus he is higher than your guru, who is higher than Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Peson C - Well my guru did not laugh, nor did anything. He was like a rock, displayed no human emotion or human desires for anything. He is higher than all of you guys.

Person D - *pointing to a actual rock* well all your gurus looked like humans. My guru is a rock. He has no human quality. Thus he is the highest of all.

Lol

 

(And Person D is actually a real person - Bhagat Dhanna ji. Well ... kind of, he still had a human guru. )

For example, When Sikh Gurus were in the same position as Sri Rama , they did not cry due to pain of separation.

Well ask yourself who is saying this? The same people who believe that crying is a weakness are the ones who are propagating this as well.

 

How do you know that Guru sahibs didn't cry?

You have Guru Nanak Dev ji telling you that it is human nature to cry.

ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅੜਾ ਊਭਿ ਚੜਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ

He then tells you that God himself cried.

ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

What leads you to believe that he never cried himself?

 

Guru Nanak Dev ji is saying -

1. That crying is a natural phenomenon of the body, just like any other.

2. When it arises, it is hukam, and to obey that hukam, to let it happen is the best thing one can do.

ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥

 

My current conditioning of mind leads me to believe that crying is a sign of weakness, in context of the Avtars.

Is it also a sign of weakness in other contexts?

Is it ever a sign of strength?

 

 

Crying in pain due to separation from God:

When we forget God:

Crying in pain due to separation form God. Or crying when we forget God.

What do you those things actually mean in the moment they are happening?

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A Bihari Udasi poet who accompanied the Guru Gobind Singh down south writes that the Guru was struck with grief after he recieved the news of the shaheedi of chote sahibzade.

Edited by amardeep

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A Bihari Udasi poet who accompanied the Guru Gobind Singh down south writes that the Guru was struck with grief after he recieved the news of the shaheedi of chote sahibzade.

Indeed. Guru Sahib was also going through the grief process in Machhiwara. He had just gone through the death of his sahibzadey and his singhs, and all the grief that comes with that, when he received news of his young sahibzadey, who he had sent home safely and thought they were going to be alright.

This was the tragic part of the death of chotte sahibzadey.

1. Guru Sahib had sent them home safely. He thought that they were going to be ok (and like Guru Hari Krishan ji and himself, would continue the 'guru lineage')

2. They did make it back safely but they got reported on the way. After being reported they were killed for committing no crimes. For having done nothing.

That is so tragic now that I revisit that story from the point of view of grief.

This hit Guru Sahib even harder than the death of his older children because he was not expecting this. At least he sent his older sons to battle willingly, who had been trained previously. His younger sons were at a tender age and he was trying to protect them. At Machhiwara he was probably thinking "At least the young ones are safe".

 

When we are talking about Bhana Mananna, to accept bhana, his will, the emotions that come with death are part of that.

His Bhana is accepted only in difficult times, such as these.

Loss is nothing. It is the emotions that makes loss terrible. Accepting loss where there are no emotions, is no special feat. Accepting loss when there are violent emotions raging in the body and mind is what spiritual perfection, sidhi, is about.

Had Guru Sahib felt nothing, it would be wholly inaccurate to say that he accepted Bhana. Bhana is accepting all the terrible emotions that come with loss.

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A Bihari Udasi poet who accompanied the Guru Gobind Singh down south writes that the Guru was struck with grief after he recieved the news of the shaheedi of chote sahibzade.

Bro, people have their opinions. Daas heard (in a katha) that the person who came to give the news about the shaheedi was struggling to convey it. It was Maharaaj who touched him and gave me the strength to talk about it.

Bhul chuk maaf

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The different sakhis does'nt mutually exclude one another.

While we are on the topic, see this sad video - Kavi Santokh Singhs account of the shaheedi.. Even Kavi Santokh Singh had to pause and take breaks while describing the event due to them being so horrofic and tragic!

 

Edited by amardeep

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The different sakhis does'nt mutually exclude one another.

Bro, the account of the Udhasi poet indicates that God has a weakness, which is false. God is above all weaknesses, which includes grief, sorrow, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Indeed. Guru Sahib was also going through the grief process in Machhiwara. He had just gone through the death of his sahibzadey and his singhs, and all the grief that comes with that, when he received news of his young sahibzadey, who he had sent home safely and thought they were going to be alright.

This was the tragic part of the death of chotte sahibzadey.

1. Guru Sahib had sent them home safely. He thought that they were going to be ok (and like Guru Hari Krishan ji and himself, would continue the 'guru lineage')

2. They did make it back safely but they got reported on the way. After being reported they were killed for committing no crimes. For having done nothing.

That is so tragic now that I revisit that story from the point of view of grief.

This hit Guru Sahib even harder than the death of his older children because he was not expecting this. At least he sent his older sons to battle willingly, who had been trained previously. His younger sons were at a tender age and he was trying to protect them. At Machhiwara he was probably thinking "At least the young ones are safe".

Bro, Satguru jee was above grief or sorrow. He was not a human like us. Satguru jee already knew that the human guru lineage was to end. In fact, third master had already showed Mata Bhanee jee, all the future events. Satguru jee is all-knowing.

People, who are themselves affected by sorrow or grief, might think of Satguru jee according to their state of mind. Plenty depends upon a person's drishtee. For example, a happy person might perceive a grief-stricken person, as being happy

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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A Bihari Udasi poet who accompanied the Guru Gobind Singh down south writes that the Guru was struck with grief after he recieved the news of the shaheedi of chote sahibzade.

Indeed. Guru Sahib was also going through the grief process in Machhiwara. He had just gone through the death of his sahibzadey and his singhs, and all the grief that comes with that, when he received news of his young sahibzadey, who he had sent home safely and thought they were going to be alright.

 

Brothers, please have a look at this tuk.

ਸੁਖੀਏ ਕਉ ਪੇਖੈ ਸਭ ਸੁਖੀਆ ਰੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਸਭ ਰੋਗੀ ॥ (ANG 610)

To the happy person, everyone seems happy; to the sick person, everyone seems sick.

It is very clear from this tuk that people perceive other people's emotions, according to their state of mind. It is very much possible that the people who wrote (or thought) that Satguru jee was very sad (after Shaheedis), were indeed themselves full of grief and perceived Satguru jee to be affected by human emotions. 

Amardeep paaji - We should be in a position to nullify the account of the Udasi poet, based on Gurbani and the counter evidence available.

More information on how perception can make a big difference:

Baba Budda jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Brahangyani.

Baba Bala jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Saint.

Baba Mardanna jee Maharaaj perceived first master, as a Ragi.

Second master perceived first master, as the almighty Lord.

Each one achieved the level, they perceived.

Bhul chuk maaf

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It is very clear from this tuk that people perceive other people's emotions, according to their state of mind.

So do you lack emotions? is that why you think Guru sahib had no emotion?

Bro, Satguru jee was above grief or sorrow.

Bro I don't think you know what that means.

 

Have you been practicing naam simran? Have you been keeping a routine?

What is your experience in day to day life while meditating?

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So do you lack emotions? is that why you think Guru sahib had no emotion?

The following, is the state of a Brahamgyani.

 

ਇਕਸੁ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸੋਗ ਸੰਤਾਪੁ ॥੩

Attuned to the Love of the One, there is no sorrow or suffering. ||3||

 

Here, we are talking about Satguru jee, who can, with a glance convert a fool like me, into a Brahamgyani.

Bro, do you seriously believe that Satguru jee would go through a grief process, like ordinary humans?

From a spiritually higher perspective: Satguru jee is full of emotions and emotionless at the same time. Satguru jee, at times, displays emotions, in order to satisfy his devotees and to make them happy.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited by paapiman

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Bhagat, it is a matter of different perceptions & your minds interpretations.

You view Guru as having gone through the grief process. I do not.

Guru Ji knew about all the events that were going to happen with sahibzade. When Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji saw all these events in Samadhi, she asked permission from Guru Ji to leave her body before these events happened. You think Guru ji would be surprised & gone through the grief process after knowing about all the events beforehand.

Bhagat, you are attributing human qualities of unknowing & sadness & grief to Gurus life. This might work for some people.But I hold my Guru away from unknowing, surprise, & emotions of grief.

ps. And btw Guru Nanak didn't have sex to produce children, ...again it is a matter of devotion. Some people view Guru as a normal human , and others view Guru as Nirankar.

I choose to view Guru as both in Nirgun & Sargun form, immersed in everything like Brahm, but at the same time enacting a drama to teach people, but in reality being away from all the drama as well.

Whatever helps with your spiritual path. What helps me in spirituality is holding my Guru as Nirankar, separate from drama, but enacting drama also for the sake of teaching.

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Person A -  well, my guru did not have sex and reproduce. Thus he is higher than Guru Nanak Dev ji because he controlled his basic urge.

Person B - well my guru did neither ate nor had sex, he controlled his basic desire of hunger and sex, thus he is higher than your guru, who is higher than Guru Nanak Dev ji.

Peson C - Well my guru did not laugh, nor did anything. He was like a rock, displayed no human emotion or human desires for anything. He is higher than all of you guys.

Person D - *pointing to a actual rock* well all your gurus looked like humans. My guru is a rock. He has no human quality. Thus he is the highest of all.

Lol

 

(And Person D is actually a real person - Bhagat Dhanna ji. Well ... kind of, he still had a human guru. )

Well ask yourself who is saying this? The same people who believe that crying is a weakness are the ones who are propagating this as well.

First of all, Guru Nanak did not have sex, nor did any of the gurus. They were above the basic urges. They did not need the physical act to procreate. So there goes your analogy out of the window. Thus, Guru Nanak is higher than everybody else.

Guru Nanak did not eat either . He went without food for many days. Baba Harnam Singh  Rampur did an experiement where he survived on naam only without any water or food. His personal interview. So there goes you analogy B out of the window for me again.

Crying is a weakness when you are crying in separation of a worldly person, because you are showing attachment. Attachment/Moh is one of the vices that a Sikh has to let go or a brahmgyani controls. 

Crying in love for God or separation from God or a Guru Murshid is acceptable. Those tears wash away your sins and cleanse your mind. I have provided your examples from Guru Granth Sahib where person cries in vairag or dispassion . That is acceptable.

When you cry in grief, from separation, that means you are still attached to that person, you are feeling that void.  But to say Guru cried in grief, I do not believe that.

 

 

 

 

 

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