BhagatSingh Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Bro, Vedas must be respected by all Sikhs. There is no doubt about that, but they cannot be put on the same level, as Gurbani.1. Vedas don't talk about Prema Bhagtee (devotion based on love) 2. Vedas (most of it) do not talk about the fourth state of mind (Turiya pad), while Gurbani is written from the perspective of Turiya pad. Wherever it says Ved, you could substitute in the name of any spiritual book, ANY book. And it is true of that book.You could put in Guru Granth sahib. And it would be the same. You could put in Patanjali's Yog Sutra and it would be the same. Both Guru Granth Sahib and Patanjali have words "love" and "turiya avastha" but they do not contain love and turiya vastha.This is because words and books cannot contain love, they don't contain turiya avastha, only humans can do that. Books cannot love but humans can. Books cannot reach turiya avastha, only humans can.I'll repeat.Humans can love and attain turiya avastha. Books cannot. Books do not have emotions. Since love and turiya avastha come from emotions, humans are capable of them. What are books good at?Books can mould the intellect.As Guru Nanak Dev ji says in Jap Ji Sahib - ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥ Make you intellect the anvil, and use the hammer of Vedas, to hit and mould the coin of naam simran.Books are good at somethings and fulfill their purpose really well, provided you ready them.Can one attain turiya avastha by reading books?To love God at a deep level (turiya avastha) requires special training that only someone who is a master can give you. Yes you can love God without anyone's teaching but to go at a deep level, to attain turiya avastha, the level that Gurbani is talking about you need someone who can teach it to you. A master is some one who has cultivated love for God and has attained turiya avastha over multiple years of experience.This master can teach you how to cultivate love and attain turiya avastha. Turiya avastha is very difficult to attain and I cannot stress having someone kind of teacher to get you there.You cannot extract love and turiya avastha from a book. You need to extract this from your own Atma. In my experience, many Sikh brothers talk a lot about spiritual concepts but they don't have any experience with them. They haven't found anyone to teach them nor do they learn from anyone or anything or even themselves.They are headed off the cliff and don't even know it.How to not fall of a cliff?1. Read Guru Granth Sahib, understand the shabads, their meanings. (and other helpful books)2. Learn to meditate by finding someone who can teach you. (somebody who knows their shit)3. Associate with others who are on the same path, at least 5 people who more advanced than you. (a strong peer group)Use 1-3 to develop higher awareness, cultivate love and attain turiya avastha.If you don't do even 1, you are gimping yourself. And in the age of the internet, there is no excuse for not doing all 3. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Wherever it says Ved, you could substitute in the name of any spiritual book, ANY book. And it is true of that book.You could put in Guru Granth sahib. And it would be the same. You could put in Patanjali's Yog Sutra and it would be the same. Both Guru Granth Sahib and Patanjali have words "love" and "turiya avastha" but they do not contain love and turiya vastha.This is because words and books cannot contain love, they don't contain turiya avastha, only humans can do that. Books cannot love but humans can. Books cannot reach turiya avastha, only humans can.I'll repeat.Humans can love and attain turiya avastha. Books cannot. Books do not have emotions. Since love and turiya avastha come from emotions, humans are capable of them. What are books good at?Books can mould the intellect.As Guru Nanak Dev ji says in Jap Ji Sahib - ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥ Make you intellect the anvil, and use the hammer of Vedas, to hit and mould the coin of naam simran.Books are good at somethings and fulfill their purpose really well, provided you ready them.Can one attain turiya avastha by reading books?To love God at a deep level (turiya avastha) requires special training that only someone who is a master can give you. Yes you can love God without anyone's teaching but to go at a deep level, to attain turiya avastha, the level that Gurbani is talking about you need someone who can teach it to you. A master is some one who has cultivated love for God and has attained turiya avastha over multiple years of experience.This master can teach you how to cultivate love and attain turiya avastha. Turiya avastha is very difficult to attain and I cannot stress having someone kind of teacher to get you there.You cannot extract love and turiya avastha from a book. You need to extract this from your own Atma. In my experience, many Sikh brothers talk a lot about spiritual concepts but they don't have any experience with them. They haven't found anyone to teach them nor do they learn from anyone or anything or even themselves.They are headed off the cliff and don't even know it.How to not fall of a cliff?1. Read Guru Granth Sahib, understand the shabads, their meanings. (and other helpful books)2. Learn to meditate by finding someone who can teach you. (somebody who knows their shit)3. Associate with others who are on the same path, at least 5 people who more advanced than you. (a strong peer group)Use 1-3 to develop higher awareness, cultivate love and attain turiya avastha.If you don't do even 1, you are gimping yourself. And in the age of the internet, there is no excuse for not doing all 3.Bro, Daas moved your post to another topic. Let's discuss more over there.http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17011-vedas-in-sikhism/Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Of course bro. But this shabad only has one.The one you posted is not wrong per se. It is just incomplete.The uthanka is complete bro, but the arth is not, as Daas has not posted the complete arth from that teeka. Gurparsaad, will do soon.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Of course bro. But this shabad only has one.The one you posted is not wrong per se. It is just incomplete.Complete arth, as done in Amir Bhandar Teeka: Bhul chuk maaf Edited August 30, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Complete arth, as done in Amir Bhandar Teeka: Bhul chuk maafThat is good. He is saying the same thing that I am. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Arth by Prof.Sahib jee is below: Bhul chuk maaf Edited August 31, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BhagatSingh Posted August 31, 2015 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Arth by Prof.Sahib jee is below: Bhul chuk maafYea Prof Sahib Singh got it wrong. He got a lot translations wrong.The english translators copied him and that's why they got it wrong as well. PS Bro it seems you can read punjabi.Try reading the Freed Kote Teeka (from 1800s Punjab), I think it will be the next step for you.http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Bhagatsingh: Whats your view on the Faridkot Teeka? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Bhagatsingh: Whats your view on the Faridkot Teeka?Two words - Absolutely brilliant! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 When I read the English translation of Guru Granth Sahib ji. I notice that there are certain mistakes embedded in these translations that are over-looked by most sikhs, who rely on them to make out the meaning of the shabad.But what does the English Translation of this shabad say? Something completely unrelated. It is as I say, completely botched.This is not what Sant Kabir ji is talking about and these are not the views he holds. This is not what Guru Granth Sahib ji is talking about either, and this mistranslated shabad is used to misrepresent the Guru. The most prevalent english translation of Guru Granth Sahib used is STTM. But although it is good, it definitely needs updating. Some of these translations are not very accurate, although the program makers do have a statement saying that translations may not be accurate. I prefer to read these translations and then listen to relevant katha in Panjabi on it to develop proper understanding. STTM does have some words in there that do not exist in the Gurmukhi text. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yea Prof Sahib Singh got it wrong. He got a lot translations wrong.The english translators copied him and that's why they got it wrong as well.Wrong may be too strong. Prof's work centered around literal translations which doesn't give the full essence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Two words - Absolutely brilliant!Please expand. In what way you find it better than the others out there (Sahib Singh etc). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yea Prof Sahib Singh got it wrong. He got a lot translations wrong.The english translators copied him and that's why they got it wrong as well.Paaji. there is a possibility that Prof.Sahib Singh jee's arths are also right. Many tuks have multiple arths.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 PS Bro it seems you can read punjabi.Try reading the Freed Kote Teeka (from 1800s Punjab), I think it will be the next step for you.http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2They do prakash and katha of Fareedkot wala teeka at Nanaksar Gurudwaras. Anyways, thanks for the advice paaji.Bro, please do read the teeka (Amir Bhandar) by Srimaan Sant Gyani Kirpal Singh jee (previous leader of Amritsari Taksaal). Most likely, the arths done in there, should be very close to the arths taught by tenth master, to the Singhs at Damdama Sahib.http://www.gurmatveechar.com/literature?browse=Steeks_and_Teekas/Sri_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Steeks_and_Teekas/Sant_Kirpal_Singh_Ji_Sato_Gali_WaleBhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Aren't the Amir Bhandar and Faridkot very similar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Aren't the Amir Bhandar and Faridkot very similar?Bro, it seems that Amir Bhandar teeka does more arths of a single tuk than Fareedkot wala teeka.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) For example, have a look at the tuks below: ਸੁਣਿਐ ਸਿਧ ਪੀਰ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਾਥ ॥ਸੁਣਿਐ ਧਰਤਿ ਧਵਲ ਆਕਾਸ ॥ਸੁਣਿਐ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥ਸੁਣਿਐ ਪੋਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕਾਲੁ ॥ Fareedkot wala teeka states:- 1 arth for the first tuk- 2 arths for the second tuk- 1 arth for the third tuk- 2 arths for the fourth tuk Amir Bhandar teeka states:- 4 arths for the first tuk- 5 arths for the second tuk- 5 arths for the third tuk- 3 arths for the fourth tuk Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee MaharaajDhan teriyan Taksaalan (DDT, Amritsari, etc)Dhan teriyan sampradawan (Nirmalay, Udasi, Sevapanthi, Nihangs, etc)Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 1, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Paaji. there is a possibility that Prof.Sahib Singh jee's arths are also right. Many tuks have multiple arths.Bhul chuk maafBro this thread seems to be completely lost on you. This whole thread was created to show how Prof Sahib Singh ji's arths are wrong. I explained why he is wrong in my post. Can you explain why you think he is right?Many tuks have multiple arths.Just because there are multiple arths being given, doesn't mean they are all right. Wrong may be too strong. Prof's work centered around literal translations which doesn't give the full essence.Let me clarify. I am not talking about all of Prof Sahib's work. I am talking about certain parts that he completely botched. Like the shabad in the post. It's not even about "the full essence" and stuff like that, it is plain wrong.Aren't the Amir Bhandar and Faridkot very similar?From the Amir Bhandar pages that Paapiman quoted, it seems Amir Bhandar is a modern punjabi translation of Faridkot wala teeka.Please expand. In what way you find it better than the others out there (Sahib Singh etc).Faridkot wala teeka gets things right. 1. And not only does it get things right. It doesn't have any post-British Raj ( post-Christian Missionary, post-Singh Sabha missionary) bias to it. This makes their teeka absolutely must-read for those who want to study pre-British Raj way of thinking.2. These guys know exactly what each word means. They know the history of that word. They know other texts in which those words are used and they give all this gyan, and embed it into their teeka.3. They know all the stories in Guru Granth Sahib and how they expand on the theology that is embedded in Guru Granth Sahib. Theology that is for the most part lost on modern sikhs.4. They are masters at deciphering deeper arths to shabads like the shabad of Bhai Dhanna ji who asks for roti, a good wife, a stallion, etc. Guys from faridkot figured that out!5. Not only is Faridkot masterful in the language (etymology), mythos, theology, and masterful at translation. These guys were also highly spiritual, so they are not doing hollow arths. They know what the spirituality is behind the wordy descriptions. This alone makes their teeka superior over any modern teeka. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Bro this thread seems to be completely lost on you. This whole thread was created to show how Prof Sahib Singh ji's arths are wrong. I explained why he is wrong in my post. Can you explain why you think he is right? Paaji, Daas does not find Prof.Sahib Singh jee's arth wrong. Daas is not a scholar, so cannot prove why he is right. From the Amir Bhandar pages that Paapiman quoted, it seems Amir Bhandar is a modern punjabi translation of Faridkot wala teeka. Amir Bhandar is a teeka by Srimaan Gyani Kirpaal Singh jee (previous head of Amritsari Taksaal), while Fareedkot teeka was done by Nirmalay scholars. It seems that Amir Bhandar teeka goes into more depth than Fareedkot teeka and it is not a translation of the latter.Bhul chul maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Daas is not a scholar, so cannot prove why he is right.What is your understanding of the Gurmukhi words in the shabad? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 What is your understanding of the Gurmukhi words in the shabad? Bro, Daas wants to get rid of my own understanding (Manmat) and adopt Gurmat, via the thinking of Gurmukhs.Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Bro, Daas wants to get rid of my own understanding (Manmat) and adopt Gurmat, via the thinking of Gurmukhs.Bhul chuk maafHow will thinking of gurmukhs help you adopt guru's mat? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) How will thinking of gurmukhs help you adopt guru's mat?Bro, please have a look at the arth done by Gyani Harbans Singh jee. It is similar to the one done by Professor jee. Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 6, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted September 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Bro, please have a look at the arth done by Gyani Harbans Singh jee. It is similar to the one done by Professor jeeBhul chuk maafHe's also wrong.Have you read this post?http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17002-botched-translations-of-guru-granth-sahib-ji-part-1-ਕਬੀਰ-ਰਾਮ-ਕਹਨ-ਮਹਿ-ਭੇਦੁ-ਹੈ/?do=findComment&comment=152788 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) He's also wrong.Have you read this post?http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17002-botched-translations-of-guru-granth-sahib-ji-part-1-ਕਬੀਰ-ਰਾਮ-ਕਹਨ-ਮਹਿ-ਭੇਦੁ-ਹੈ/?do=findComment&comment=152788 Bro, do you seriously believe, that you have more knowledge of Gurbani grammar than Professor Sahib Singh jee and Gyani Harbans Singh jee?Paaji, your interpretation is right; there is no doubt about that. But, you cannot discard the other interpretations, which are in line with Gurmat. The arths, done by the scholars above, completely conform with Gurmat.Bhul chuk maaf Edited September 6, 2015 by paapiman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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