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Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji - Part 1 - ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ


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Bro, do you seriously believe, that you have more knowledge of Gurbani grammar than Professor Sahib Singh jee and Gyani Harbans Singh jee?

Bro if they were so good at Gurmukhi grammar why did they translate this shabad so poorly? It's so obvious that their translated grammar does not match the gurmukhi, it matches their agenda but not what Kabir ji is saying.

Paaji, your interpretation is right; there is no doubt about that. But, you cannot discard the other interpretations, which are in line with Gurmat. The arths done by the above two scholars, completely conform with Gurmat.

I can easily discard them.

How?

1. by demonstrating that they are wrong based on the gurmukhi, the gurmukhi grammar and the gurmukhi words that are used.

2. by referencing an older and IMO better teeka (Faridkot) that nails the translation.

3. by studying Bhagat Kabir ji's bani.

4. by studying Indian mythology.

5. by meditating, by doing naam simran.

Edited by BhagatSingh
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I can easily discard them.

How?

1. by demonstrating that they are wrong based on the gurmukhi, the gurmukhi grammar and the gurmukhi words that are used.

2. by referencing an older and IMO better teeka (Faridkot) that nails the translation.

3. by studying Bhagat Kabir ji's bani.

4. by studying Indian mythology.

5. by meditating, by doing naam simran.

Gurmat advocates worship of Raam, the Almighty Lord which resides in everyone, not of Sri Raam Chandar jee, who was an incarnation of a Demi-God.

Hence, the arths done by the above two scholars, completely conform with Gurmat.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Gurmat advocates worship of Raam, the Almighty Lord which resides in everyone, not of Sri Raam Chandar jee, who was an incarnation of a Demi-God.

Hence, the arths done by the above two scholars, completely conform with Gurmat.

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro, you are welcome to believe that if you like, however Sant Kabir ji is talking about Ram Chandar ji, incarnation of Vishnu ji, who resides everywhere.

That's the point of this thread. Kabir ji is being misrepresented by Prof Sahib and others.

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Bro, you are welcome to believe that if you like, however Sant Kabir ji is talking about Ram Chandar ji, incarnation of Vishnu ji, who resides everywhere.

Sri Vishnu jee does not reside everywhere. By making him look like God, you are committing the same mistake which some Hindus used to and still do.

Gurbani focuses so much, on worship of only one Almighty Lord (God) and explicitly proves that the three famous Demi-Gods are under him. 

Bro, by equating Sri Vishnu jee to the Almighty Lord (God), you are committing ninda. How can you compare a devta with God (who can create millions like him)?

 Bhul chuk maaf

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Sri Vishnu jee does not reside everywhere.

Lol Vishnu literally means, one who resides everywhere.

Bro Vishnu is not a man. Study Indian philosophy and religion. Study the texts that talk about Vishnu and see how they define him and see how they talk about him.

Start by reading the Vishnu Sahasarnama translation.

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Lol Vishnu literally means, one who resides everywhere.

Bro Vishnu is not a man. Study Indian philosophy and religion. Study the texts that talk about Vishnu and see how they define him and see how they talk about him.

Start by reading the Vishnu Sahasarnama translation.

Bro, the terms Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv can be used for God too. If I change my name to Vishnu Singh, does it mean that I reside everywhere? No, it does not. Similarly, if a devta has a name, which is a name for God, it does not mean that he is equal to God. 

Can you please answer this question:

Do you believe that Sri Vishnu jee does not exist physically? According to Gurbani, there is a Devta, which exists by the name of Sri Vishnu jee. There is a Sheesnaag on his head and his wife is Sri Lachmee jee. He has taken 23 incarnations till now, which includes Sri Raam Chandar jee and Sri Krishan jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Maybe this will help clear things up for Paapiman

Eulogy of God's Name

A name of any thing is very essential to know it or to convey its knowledge. Without name, there will be no knowledge. Name and knowledge are closely associated like the body and skirt. It is also a fact that every animated being and thing come in this world without name. Name is prevalent in the human world only, because knowledge has been developed in the human world only. Name was given to those things and beings which were used by man or were near him. Man has named all the vegetation. These are flowers and out ofthese, this is marigold, this is rose and this is jasmine. Man has given these names. No flower has said that I am flower or rose, or marigold. Every visible and invisible thing is having no name. After naming vegetation, man gave names to animals and birds. This is cow, or lion or horse or dog. All names have been designated by man.

Man has also given names to the world of birds. Only man has endeavoured to give names to aquatic animals, terrestrial animals and worms etc. It is a different matter that there are many names of the same animated being or thing. This is due to different languages of different people. Man has named animated beings according to his language, mental impressions and nature. Man has named hills for identification. He also named rivers and oceans. Man looked up in the sky and named shining world as stars, planets, sidereal, Sun, Moon, Mars, Saturn etc. Then the thinking of man started giving names to the invisible world. For example he gave names to diseases and invisible souls.

In the end the thought of man went towards Omnipotent by whom this universe-in-action came into existence. When man saw the universe as a creation, he named the creator as Karta Purakh (Creator). When he saw Him as 'spreading' (Ramiya), he called Him 'Ram'. When man saw Him separate from time, he called Him 'Akal' (Immortal), i.e., beyond time. Being wide spread at every place and remover of faults, man called Him 'Hari'. The meaning of 'Hari' is thief also and whenever He enters in any body's mind unnoticed and He takes away mental impressions full of many faults of many births in a moment. After becoming blissful, a person comes to know that God had come in my heart. Therefore the Bhagats give this unique lovely name to that Omnipotent. By seeing His amorous sport to become astonished, and to give great brilliance after removing darkness, etc. - by seeing these grand virtues, Universal Guru, Baba Nanak Dev ji uttered 'Waheguru'. In this way 'Waheguru' mantra manifested by meditating which, meditators remove their ignorance and attain ecstatic state. By his foresight and intellect man gave those names to his children which are names ofGod. So that he may remember that he is worshipper of God and has taken birth in this world to manifest God in his heart.

All the Names are Godly whether in Hindu, Jain, Boudhas, Sikh or Islam religions and are religious. When some one's name is forgotten, then his related knowledge is also forgotten. On remembering name, the whole knowledge is manifested. While repeating His name, it is essential to keep conception of God in the mind since God is beyond name.

anaam hain. akaam hain.30.
Thou hast no Name and art without Lust

Parents give names to their children. But the Bhagats of the perfect God of the world give Him name since they are nearest to Him and are His sons. On repeating God's name, His nature is manifested in the mind. This is called Name has settled in the mind. Then tongue becomes silent and Name dwells in every particle of the body and the meditator becomes the form of Naam.

naamae naaraaein naahee bhaed.
There is no difference between Naam Dayv and the Lord.

ab tou jaae chadhae singhasan milae hai saringapani.
Now. I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.

raam kabira eaek bheae hai koe na sakai pachhani.
The Lord and Kaooer have become one. No one can tell them apart.

In this way, by repeating God's name and on erasing duality(othemess), the meditators become His form and only God is visible to them everywhere.

 

Source : Prabhu Simran, Giani Sant Singh ji Maskeen

Edited by Sat1176
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Sat man that is wicked. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

The name carries the whole philosophy, which the followers (bhagats) have given to that which cannot be named.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Brahma.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Vishnu.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Shiv.

The only correction I would make is on this -

 Baba Nanak Dev ji uttered 'Waheguru'.

Guru Nanak Dev ji never uttered that. He uttered the previously mentioned names like Hari.

"Waheguru" became a mantra later on during the post-Guru period.

The last vaar in Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaaran, which mentions "waheguru" mantra is by a different author, added after Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Other than that, it is perfect.

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Sat man that is wicked. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

The name carries the whole philosophy, which the followers (bhagats) have given to that which cannot be named.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Brahma.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Vishnu.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Shiv.

The only correction I would make is on this -

Guru Nanak Dev ji never uttered that. He uttered the previously mentioned names like Hari.

"Waheguru" became a mantra later on during the post-Guru period.

The last vaar in Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaaran, which mentions "waheguru" mantra is by a different author, added after Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Other than that, it is perfect.

Huh ? Do you mean the Vahiguru Gurmantar Hai Jap Haumai koi?

Edited by amardeep
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Huh ? Do you mean the Vahiguru Gurmantar Hai Jap Haumai koi?

No that's a different one.

But it's good that you brought it up, that one is translated incorrectly in popular translations.

So here are further thoughts on that.

AFAIK Guru Sahib never gave anyone a "waheguru" mantar. Gurmantar means, the mantar that is given to you by the Guru, himself, in person. This mantar is usually shared by the Guru himself.

e.g. Guru Ram Das ji's was - "Hari Hari..." - ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਊਤਮੁ ਲੈ ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਹਸੀਐ ॥
That was given to him by Guru Amar Das ji, who also chanted it.

Sant Kabir ji got the mantar "Ram, Ram" from his Guru, Guru Ramanand ji, who used to chant "Ram, Ram"

 

So my current understanding is that Bhai Gurdas ji is saying that "the wonderful Guru gave you a mantar. Chant that mantar and follow the teachings that he gave you."

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ।
After chanting the gurmantra given by the wonderous Guru sahib, your sense of self is lost.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ  -> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ.

ਜੇਹੜਾ ਵਾਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰਮੰਤਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦਾ ਜਾਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਵਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ

 

This is similar to for example -

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Wow, the speech/bani of Nirankar is just wow, there is no one like him!

Here the popular english translations get it right but most people incorrectly translate it as "Bani is Nirankar", instead of "Bani of Nirankar".

ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ   ->  ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੈ

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interesting, but would'n you say that considering that a full pauri is given to explain the Vahiguru mantar and its origins in the four yugas - that it had a special meaning in Sikhi already at the time of the early Gurus? Later in history during dasam patshah's time the manglacharan Vahiguru ji ki fateh is used.. In the sarbloh Granth there is also praise of the word Vahiguru

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The only correction I would make is on this -

Guru Nanak Dev ji never uttered that. He uttered the previously mentioned names like Hari.

"Waheguru" became a mantra later on during the post-Guru period.

The last vaar in Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaaran, which mentions "waheguru" mantra is by a different author, added after Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Other than that, it is perfect.

Bro, Waheguru mantar existed during the times of first master. There is a sakhi, in which Satguru jee tells Srimaan Baba Mardana jee Maharaaj and Srimaan Baba Bala jee Maharaaj to recite Waheguru mantar, while crossing an ocean.

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj

Bhul chuk maaf

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The name carries the whole philosophy, which the followers (bhagats) have given to that which cannot be named.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Brahma.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Vishnu.

There is a whole philosophy on the name Shiv.

There might be a deep philosophy behind these names as ordinary beings can also act like these devtays. For example, when one is a family man and takes care of his family; he is acting like Sri Vishnu jee (Cherisher). When one is a solider and kills enemies; he is acting like Shiv jee (destroyer).

Before going into any more details, please answer the question below:

Do you believe Sri Brahma jee, Sri Vishnu jee and Sri Mahesh jee exist (physically) or not?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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interesting, but would'n you say that considering that a full pauri is given to explain the Vahiguru mantar and its origins in the four yugas -

That's the one I was talking about. (The line you mentioned is actually from a different paragraph.)

This "4 yug waheguru mantar" came after Guru Gobind Singh ji since it mentions Guru Gobind Singh ji in it.

This was not written by Bhai Gurdas ji, scribe of Guru Arjun Dev ji. This was written by someone much later.

 

Bro, Waheguru mantar existed during the times of first master. There is a sakhi, in which Satguru jee tells Srimaan Baba Mardana jee Maharaaj and Srimaan Baba Bala jee Maharaaj to recite Waheguru mantar, while crossing an ocean.

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj

Bhul chuk maaf

If that sakhi were true then "waheguru" would have been mentioned by Guru Nanak Dev ji in Guru Granth Sahib as well.

 

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If that sakhi were true then "waheguru" would have been mentioned by Guru Nanak Dev ji in Guru Granth Sahib as well.

Not necessarily. Even our Jaikaara "Jo bolay so nihaal - Sat Shri Akaal" was uttered by first master.  There is a sakhi associated with that too. Don't think that the Jaikaara is present in SSGGSJ.

Bro, we cannot start eliminating sakhis from our history.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Not necessarily. Even our Jaikaara "Jo bolay so nihaal - Sat Shri Akaal" was uttered by first master.  There is a sakhi associated with that too. Don't think that the Jaikaara is present in SSGGSJ.

Bro, we cannot start eliminating sakhis from our history.

Bhul chuk maaf

AFAIK "akal" is an adjective in Guru Granth Sahib. "sat shri akal" or even just "shri akal" in not present in Guru Granth Sahib.

They used "akal" as an adjective, like "red" describes rose.

In Guru Granth Sahib, Akal (adjective) is added to Purakh(noun), Akal Purakh. Akal (adjective) is added to Murti (noun), Akal Murti. Purush is described in Upnishads as "consciousness" and Murti means form. So Timeless Consciousness and Timeless Form.

So this terminology "sat shri akal" came during post-guru period.
 

Edited by BhagatSingh
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AFAIK "akal" is an adjective in Guru Granth Sahib. "sat shri akal" or even just "shri akal" in not present in Guru Granth Sahib.

They used "akal" as an adjective, like "red" describes rose.

In mool mantar, Akal (adjective) is added to Purakh(noun), Timeless Purakh. Akal (adjective) is added to Murti (noun), Timeless Murti. Purakh is described in Upnishads as "consciousness" and Murti means form. So Timeless Consciousness and Timeless Form.

So this terminology "sat shri akal" came during post-guru period.
 

Bro, First master gave us the Jaikaara. He first uttered it in Baghdad (Capital of present day Iraq).

If "Sat Shri Akal" is not present in SSGGSJ, it does not mean that it did not exist, during the times of Satguru jee.

Srimaan Baba Bala jee's and Bebe Nankee jee's names don't appear in Bhai Gurdas Varan. Does that mean, they did not exist? 

Correct me if wrongSrimaan Baba Bala jee's name is also not present in SSGGSJ. Does that mean, he did not exist?

Bhul chul maaf

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Bro, First master gave us the Jaikaara. He first uttered it in Baghdad (Capital of present day Iraq).

If "Sat Shri Akal" is not present in SSGGSJ, it does not mean that it did not exist, during the times of Satguru jee.

Read the rest of the post, not just the first line.

The use of language is not the same. Guru Nanak Dev ji doesn't even use the word "akal" like it is used in "sat sri akal".

There's a big difference in the two uses - between Akal Purakh/Akal Murti and Shri Akal.

It may not appear big to you. But to someone who studies language, it is big enough to show that "sat sri akal" came during post-guru period when the language had changed.

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Read the rest of the post, not just the first line.

The use of language is not the same. Guru Nanak Dev ji doesn't even use the word "akal" like it is used in "sat sri akal".

There's a big difference in the two uses - between Akal Purakh/Akal Murti and Shri Akal.

It may not appear big to you. But to someone who studies language, it is big enough to show that "sat sri akal" came during post-guru period when the language had changed.

Bro, Daas is not a linguistics scholar.

So according to you, both the above sakhis (Waheguru and Sat Shri Akal one) are false?

FYI - Both were narrated by scholars, who have great knowledge of Gurbani.

Bhul chuk maaf

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That's the one I was talking about. (The line you mentioned is actually from a different paragraph.)

This "4 yug waheguru mantar" came after Guru Gobind Singh ji since it mentions Guru Gobind Singh ji in it.

This was not written by Bhai Gurdas ji, scribe of Guru Arjun Dev ji. This was written by someone much later.

Bhai Gurdas wrote his vaaran during the reign of Guru Har Gobind Sahib. the Gaga in VahiGuru is from Guru (Har) Gobind.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ*।

Kalijougi Naanak Gur Gobind Gagaa Gobind Naamu Alaavai.

कलिजुगि नानक गुर गोबिंद गगा गोबिंद नामु अलावै ।

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.


In case we are talking about a later corruption of the text we will need manuscript evidence to suggest any changes.

Edited by amardeep
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Another good explanation by Maskeen ji.

Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva

Three activities are going on in the universe.

Birth, Life and End - something is germinating, the germinated is staying and then ceases to exist. It was believed that the three functions are being performed through some three powers. Later on the three powers were given names. Those spiritual philosophers, who gave these views, are correct upto that only, three functions are going on--being made, staying and is ending, but all this is happening from one.

Perhaps the learned people (Rishi Muni) wanted to say this only, but from the way of their saying, now one idea do comes up whether actual powers are three or one.

Mythology is like this that Brahma created the universe, Vishnu is nourishing and Shiva is destroying.

The truth is appearing some thing like this that Vishnu gave this notion to the world that from where the nourishment is being done, make love with that. Why the universe was created? When it was done? This was the research of Brahma. Therefore he was called: (wordly) mundane. Where from destruction is taking place? the emphasis of Shiva is on this research.

By considering the bounty as a souvenir, the Bestower should be loved and thanked--this ideology is that of Vishnu. This Ideology was liked by most of the people. Therefore he is worshiped very much and Vishnu Temples are every where. Gathering of businessmen and rich people sat around Vishnu since Laxmi was sitting at the feet of Vishnu. Those people, who were having greater craving for living and desiring immensely the worldly comforts, became devotees of Vishnu.

gaavai ko daat jaanai neesaan. (Jap ji Sahib)
Some sing of His Gifts, and know His Sign and Insignia.

Brahama had a heart of poet and literator. He was such a poet that besides emotional, he was philosopher as well. By considering the bounty as a souvenir, the ideology ofcommuning with the Benefactor did not appeal to Brahma:-

naal kutanb saath vardaataa brahmaa bhalan srisat gaeiaa.
Brahma, the bestower of blessings, entered the stem of the lotus, with his relatives, to find the extent of the universe.

agai ant n paaeiou ta ka kans shaed kiaa vadda bhaeiaa. (Ang 350)
Proceeding on, he could not find its limits; what glory was obtained by killing Kansa, the king?

Brahma was engrossed in the research of every aspect of the world. Living Beings are of eight-four lakhs types. There are seven notes in music. Tastes of Tongue are six. The states (~) of mind are nine. Conscience has four parts. Body has Chakras. Why diseases come up and what is their medicine. He went into the deepest level of the matter and remained busing trying to know the basic nature of it and gave notions full of difficult knowledge through Vedas:-

gaavai ko vidiaa vikhum veechaar.(Jap ji Sahib)
Some sing of knowledge obtained of Him, through difficult philosophical studies.

When he could not find the origin of the world, he got tired and began to say, "Not so, there is no end to it." For providing maximum knowledge of the world, he was called wordly (mundane). And for providing knowledge of the Bestower and bounty, Vishnu was called Store Keeper (Bhandari).

The research of Shiva was unique from that of Brahma and Vishnu. Where from the universe has come into being? This was the inclination of Brahma. What why and where is the end of universe? The attention of Shiva concentrated on 'End'. Every created and decorated thing gets destroyed.

gaavai ko saaj karaetan khaeh.
Some sing that He fashions the body, and then again reduces it to dust.

gaavai ko jeea lai fir daeh.
Some sing that He takes life away, and then again restores it.

He saw withering in the blooming flowers. Life was seen withering like flowers. By rubbing ash on the body he tried to convey that the body will, at last, become ash. By wearing the garland of skulls he was manifesting the real shape of the life. The people, who were dejected from the world (Bairaagi, asectics) were impressed
with this type of thought. Therefore ascetics gathered around him.

The people engrossed in enjoyment, gathered around Vishnu. The learned and philosophers got harmonised with Brahma. Gurbani has motivated us to first become thinkers and philosophers:-

aklee saahib saeveeai aklee paaeeai maan.
Wisdom leads us to serve our Lord and Master; through wisdom, honor is obtained.

aklee parr kai bujheeai aklee keechai daan.
Wisdom does not come by reading textbooks; wisdom inspires us to give in charity.

nanak aakhai raahu eaehu hor galaan saitaan. (page 1245)
Says Nanak, this is the Path; other things lead to Satan.

Blank intellect creates hills of arguments, due to which it becomes difficult to pass the life. Therefore life, soul, wealth, property all is the bounty given by God. And the Gurbani motivates us to accept God's will:-

man tan taeraa dhan bhee taeraa.
Mind and body are Yours; all wealth is Yours.

toon thaakur suaamee prabh maeraa. (page 106)
You are my God, my Lord and Master.

But by chance by engrossing in bounties, we may not become easy going and then enjoyer. Therefore Gurbani has urged us to keep death in mind. End is near and death is a fact:-

pehilaa maran kabool jivan kee shadd aas
First, accept death, and give up any hope of life.
hohu sabhana kee raenuka too aao hamaarai paas. (page 1102)
Become the dust of the feet of all, and then, you may come to me.

There are some constructive inclinations in man that is  Brahma and due to that man does some constructive work:-

kaaeiaa andar brahmaa bisan mehaesaa
subh oupat jit sansaaraa
( page 754)
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva,
from whom the whole world emanated.

Brahma is staying in the body. In whom instinct of passion is dominant, he becomes a great scientist, engineer, doctor, literator, poet, artist and iconographer. If Brahma is inside in a short form, then a person will undertake smaller creations.

Vishnu is an element of purity. He creates an aptitude of bringing up. Along with himself, he takes care of others also and helps them this is the duty of Vishnu. But Shivji is also inside. Due to attribute of darkness some thing is being destroyed. If a person is not able to rectify his faults, then he will destroy others due to this attribute of darkness.

If this attribute of darkness is manifested in dreadful form, then a large number of countries are destroyed. If the attribute of darkness is on a smaller scale, then minor clashes take place.

Therefore inside every person, Brahma, Bishan and Mahesh are residing. And they are helpful in the world for construction, staying and wiping out:-

kott brahmae jag saajan laaeae.(page 1156)
He employed millions of Brahmas to create the worlds.

The whole game of the world is going on with the help of these three inclinations.

Source : Guru Chintan

Edited by Sat1176
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Adherents of Hinduism believe Vishnu's eternal and supreme abode beyond the material universe is called Vaikuntha.

Vaikuntha is situated beyond the material universe and hence, cannot be perceived or measured by material science or logic.

Vishnu's other abode within the material universe is Ksheera Sagara (the ocean of milk), where he reclines and rests on Ananta Shesha, (the king of the serpent deities, commonly shown with a thousand heads).

The Puranabharati, an ancient text, describes these as the dashavatara, or the ten avatars of Vishnu. Ten avatars (dashavatara) of Vishnu are the most prominent:

Among the ten, nine have occurred in the past and one will take place in the future as Lord Kalki, at the end of Kali Yuga, (the fourth and final stage in the cycle of yugas that the world goes through).

These incarnations take place in all Yugas in cosmic scales; the avatars and their stories show that gods are indeed unimaginable, unthinkable and inconceivable for almost all ordinary human beings, but not so for Gurmukhs, Sant Janas or Guru Sahibans, which are far superior, as they are the very embodiment of Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

The Bhagavad Gita mentions their purpose as being to rejuvenate  Dharma to vanquish those negative forces of evil that threaten dharma.

 

 

Keeping the above ponits of Vishnu Jee, and with the aid of Gurbani, we can come to the following conclusions:

He(Vishnu) can never be the supreme reality as Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

He is just an administrator of the creation to an extent, along with his helpers// assistants//colaborators, such as Brahma and Shiva and the lesser gods and godesses.

Vishnu is limited to  Baikunth, which is very much within the mayavee creation, along with his wife Lakshmi, and resting on Sesnaag, on a ocean of milk. All these things, and entities, though not of material nature, exist very much in the subtle palnes, but that does make them in any way, not even, one spec of  the dust of  Wahiguru´s Charan Kamal.

While the Bani says: Sach Khand vaseh Nirankar. Sach Khand is the plane of pure spirituality, with no trace of maya, mind and kaal. And plus there are no such elements as wife, snakes, weapons, flowers or milk, etc.

From Vishnu, avatars come for the establishment of righteousness or dharma, whenever the evil is in growth and goodness is in danger, for that he can even assume the forms of lower species as half lion-half man, or turtle for example, and displays powers, with his weapons to slay his enemies... he is more like Marvel group super heros, with powers.

On the contrary, whenever Wahiguru Akal Purukh comes at our human level, He assumes the form of Guru Sahibans, Gurmukhs, Sant Janas.  Never dispalys any powers or perfoms miracles, though they are omnipotent

And the main concern of His(Wahiguru) coming here, is, for the only purpose for reuniting the jeevas, the souls, with Him, through the bhakti of Naam alone.

Naam, and Naam alone, is the main purpose of Him, to make us know in mankind as means of salvation.

No jap, tap, poojaas, paths, pilgrimages, fastings, sacrifices, no flowers, no lamps ....nothing is needed, only a pure mind and His Grace above all, to  devote ourselves at His Lotus Feet.

The avatars, and all these gods will exist as long as creation exist via 4 yugas, then, they too will have to undergo their destiny.

 

The Bani says :

Ik Oankar, Satnam : Satnam is the only One Truth. Or we can say, there is only one Creator, which is  everlasting Truth, being  Naam its manifestation.

*It would be important to keep in mind, that  no Vishnus or any other gods as such, are mentioned by Guru Sahib as the Primal Being, but, only Satnam

Karta Purukh: He is the only doer, without any helpers such as Brahma or Vishnu or any other lower powers 

Nirbahv Nirvaer: He is fearless, He has no enemies, like the avatrs had to face such as Ravan, or Kans for example

Akal Moorat: He existed even before the yugas appeared, means, He is above all these trinity gods, which almost everyone worships, as they come only throughout the yugas, for the only purpose of keeping on the mayavee creation, until the Hukum of Wahiguru is given, so that Parlay or Mahaparlay take place.

Ajoonee, saibhang:  Wahiguru is birthless, He is self sufficient.  While, these trinity gods, and the lesser ones were created by mother Maya and father Kaal.

Further on the Bani says : Aapeenhai Aap Saajiou, Aapeenhai Rachiou Naao: He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name. Naam or Shabd is the real swaroop of Wahiguru, no Vishnus, no Allahs, or no any other entities

Gur Parsad, Jap: He is realized or attained, by the jap, by the grace of the Guru.

The main difference in devotion between Gurmat and  Brahmanvadee is that:

anybody can worship these gods and reach their abode, but, Wahiguru can only be worshipped, by the Glance of His Daya Meher on those wadbhagee jeevas, not otherwise.

 

It is a pity, so much brahmanvadee, is entering and polluting sikhee, the sikhya of our beloved Guru Sahibans.

And the worst thing, is we keep quite as brainless lambs by accepting it.

If any wadeeayee ever,  if any Mahima to be sung, that is of One Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

 

Further are some lines about the  apaar mahima of that  one Supreme Being alone, without any second or third, so to say in numbers. The Bani starts by saying: Ik Oankar.

Dhuyee Kudharath Saajeeai Kar Aasan Dditho Chaao ||

दुयी कुदरति साजीऐ करि आसणु डिठो चाउ ॥

Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.

 

Dhaathaa Karathaa Aap Thoon Thus Dhaevehi Karehi Pasaao ||

दाता करता आपि तूं तुसि देवहि करहि पसाउ ॥

You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.

 

Thoon Jaanoee Sabhasai Dhae Laisehi Jindh Kavaao ||

तूं जाणोई सभसै दे लैसहि जिंदु कवाउ ॥

You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.

 

*Some more lines from Aasaa kee Vaar, regarding the superiority of Wahiguru above all, though some may try to prove the contrary.

Naanak Nirabho Nirankaar Hor Kaethae Raam Ravaal ||

नानक निरभउ निरंकारु होरि केते राम रवाल ॥

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

 

Kaetheeaa Kannh Kehaaneeaa Kaethae Baedh Beechaar ||

केतीआ कंन्ह कहाणीआ केते बेद बीचार ॥

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

 

Kaethae Nachehi Mangathae Girr Murr Poorehi Thaal ||

केते नचहि मंगते गिड़ि मुड़ि पूरहि ताल ॥

So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

 

Baajaaree Baajaar Mehi Aae Kadtehi Baajaar ||

बाजारी बाजार महि आइ कढहि बाजार ॥

The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion.

*These magicians are the avatars of all these gods, who perform the magic of their supernatural powers and weapons, thus create the false illusion, as if they are the ultimate reality.

But thanks to our Guru Sahibans and Gurbani, we know, that only Wahiguru is the One Supreme Reality.

 

Sat Sree Akal.

 

 

 

Edited by harsharan000
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Bhai Gurdas wrote his vaaran during the reign of Guru Har Gobind Sahib. the Gaga in VahiGuru is from Guru (Har) Gobind.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ*।

Kalijougi Naanak Gur Gobind Gagaa Gobind Naamu Alaavai.

कलिजुगि नानक गुर गोबिंद गगा गोबिंद नामु अलावै ।

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.


In case we are talking about a later corruption of the text we will need manuscript evidence to suggest any changes.

So this is talking about Guru Hari Gobind Ji?

Interesting take.

I thought Bhai Gurdas ji completed his vaar during Guru Arjun Dev ji, after which Guru Sahib blessed it as "the key". I am talking about the popular sakhi.

How did you find out about the dates?

 

Edited by BhagatSingh
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